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Chiltern Court Coal Siding

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See post #4 - there was a power-operated derailer to protect P1.

 

 

As in post 4 - In the early 1960s I saw a device not far from the siding exit which I was told was a derailer, something like this:  https://goo.gl/images/WiQH9z found in:  http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html

I am happy for the experts to correct me, as it was a long time ago. 

 

Similarly, from post 23, "All that would be missing would be Q and R Stock.".  I will bow to the experts, however I believe this combination might have been covered by the District trains over the North side of the Circle on Sundays, many years ago.

 

On further information, I have spotted a small detail within an old drawing of the station that shows an elevation of the buffer positions on p1 and the siding.  Centre-to-centre of tracks approximately 18 feet.

With a derailer, a wagon could safely be left for rubbish, so I'm happy to concede that wagons may have been left there between trips to store rubbish. But there's no logic to leaving a wagon there after the 3rd August '61 visit, and the available photos from that day don't show that one was left behind to be collected later.

 

As regards the "missing" Stock, if Engineer_London rereads post #23, he'll see that I only mentioned Platforms 1-4 and the potential for modelling the Stock that would have been seen daily on those platforms. I said nothing about Q and R Stock as they would only have used Platforms 5 & 6 on Sundays. The omission of Q and R Stock was deliberate as 298 was asking for help on the Chiltern Court siding and it seemed to me to be an opportunity to point out the extensive range of Stock that served Platforms 1-4 in the early 1960s. I only threw in the reference to the Bakerloo platforms as a nice to have if there was space.

 

298 was looking to model a somewhat smaller area that the whole of Baker Street, if I understand his original post correctly. But he will need another MetroVic if he's to replicate the actual loco movements in his proposed micro-layout. How's that for a reason to give Mrs 298 as to why you had no choice but to buy a second MetroVic! More prototypical than using the Pannier tank from your Midnight Metropolitan set.

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For anybody who is interested.........this is my 4mm scratch-built model of the type of ex. Met brake van featured on the final Chiltern Court train.

 

post-18114-0-30550100-1529009286_thumb.jpg

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For anybody who is interested.........this is my 4mm scratch-built model of the type of ex. Met brake van featured on the final Chiltern Court train.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1102.JPG

Superb work. Love the Met F class. Have a picture of my dad driving L52 near Rickmansworth hanging on the wall in my living room. Great work, and I love the brake van too.

 

Best regards

 

Matt Wood

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Is that F class one of my GS Models kits?

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Yes. You can see the full layout in the diagram I posted earlier.

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Is that F class one of my GS Models kits?

South East Finecast on a Bachmann chassis.

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But he will need another MetroVic if he's to replicate the actual loco movements in his proposed micro-layout. How's that for a reason to give Mrs 298 as to why you had no choice but to buy a second MetroVic! More prototypical than using the Pannier tank from your Midnight Metropolitan set.

I did have a way round that by using Bachmann sectional track to form both ends of P1 into a loop and running the loco round from one end to the other, but you're right- a second loco would be better. It's just a question of which livery, I doubt there were more than two major variations at any one time, but my second favourite is unnamed Metropolitan Maroon...

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No.6 "William Penn" arrived and all locos have been chipped, mistakenly with Bachmann 3 function decoders so I've had to alter the MetroVick's internal wiring to get both cab lights to work at the same time.

 

I've also added publications by Messers Benest and Snowdon to the LU library, not that Mrs 298 was too thankful because they are "full of trains". I've also finalized the track plan enough to be able to order materials to start building the layout.

 

Any ideas as to the liveries of P.O. Coal wagons that might have been seen in the Chiltern Court siding?

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There were goods yards with coal staithes at many Met stations north of Finchley Road into the early 1960s. Finchley Road, Willesden Green, Wembley Park, Harrow, Pinner, Northwood, Croxley Green, Rayners Lane, Eastcote, Ruislip, and Hillingdon had goods yards. Coal came in by rail, steam hauled as the goods yards were not electrified, and I imagine that one of the wagons in the rake delivering to the power station at Neasden would have been detached and shunted on to an electrified road to be taken to Baker St by a MetroVic. If the coal was delivered loose to Chiltern Court, then I can't believe that a dedicated wagon would have been used even if it was filled with ash or rubbish for the return journey, too much manpower needed to move the coal from one wagon to another. So, on that basis, the livery would have been any from that era. I should know, as I will have seen them in my local Met goods yard from 1960 onwards daily. But I can't remember any details of the wagons, sorry, it's too long ago.

 

But if the coal was taken in sacks to Chiltern Court, then a dedicated wagon from the LT fleet becomes more credible. The coal could have been bagged in one of the goods yards by whichever coal merchant was supplying Chiltern Court, or even by LT employees at Neasden, and the sacks loaded into the dedicated wagon.

Edited by GoingUnderground

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I very much doubt that they were PO coal wagons after 1948, almost certainly general pool BR ones.

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I very much doubt that they were PO coal wagons after 1948, almost certainly general pool BR ones.

 

They would almost certainly have been general pool coal/open wagons after the introduction of pooling early in WWII. It is unlikely that the labour required for transhipment into LTPB wagons would have been available.

 

As the 1950s wore on, coal wagons were more and more likely to have been one of the various varieties of steel 16-ton wagons. Both the prodigious deliveries of these and the drop in domestic coal demand as the smokeless zones started to bite meant that the number of ex-PO (and pre-nationalisation company) wooden wagons in use dropped off very quickly in the latter part of the decade.

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They would almost certainly have been general pool coal/open wagons after the introduction of pooling early in WWII. It is unlikely that the labour required for transhipment into LTPB wagons would have been available.

 

As the 1950s wore on, coal wagons were more and more likely to have been one of the various varieties of steel 16-ton wagons. Both the prodigious deliveries of these and the drop in domestic coal demand as the smokeless zones started to bite meant that the number of ex-PO (and pre-nationalisation company) wooden wagons in use dropped off very quickly in the latter part of the decade.

This is borne out by the picture credited to Fred Ivey/David Bosher on page 97 of Clive Foxell's "Images of 150 years of the Metropolitan Railway". The picture shows Peckett L.53 hauling a coal train through Willesden Green in 1956. It is a mix of plank wagons and steel minerals. None of them have PO markings. Pictures of the coal trains on the Met post-WW2 are quite hard to find. I've got several books on the Met, but this was the only one I could find.

 

What decade are you modelling? If you're thinking of the late 1940s and early 1950s so that you can have PO wagons, you might have the wrong livery for the MetroVic, as in that period they were painted grey with vermillion window surrounds, and without nameplates. The Metropolitan maroon paint was reinstated, but with simplified lining, and the nameplates in the mid-1950s But you've probably picked all these details up from the Benest books.

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What decade are you modelling? If you're thinking of the late 1940s and early 1950s so that you can have PO wagons, you might have the wrong livery for the MetroVic, as in that period they were painted grey with vermillion window surrounds, and without nameplates. The Metropolitan maroon paint was reinstated, but with simplified lining, and the nameplates in the mid-1950s But you've probably picked all these details up from the Benest books.

 

Thank you for asking- Not really any specific era, I've started with Sarah Siddons in 1990s livery, then the idea for a plank came along based on Chiltern Court and the obvious need for a second loco, which is William Penn. I am aware that these two liveries wouldn't have been seen together (even ignoring the extra sockets on Sarah's underframe and the extra livery details over the late in service scheme with the same red oxide roof), but it's just intended as a quick whimsical distraction that will probably never see a public exhibition.

 

A grey one would be the next livery I'd be after, and was banking on finding a bargain due to its perceived unpopularity. I like the early UN-named scheme, but that may only lead to the slippery slope of modelling earlier Met electrics....

Edited by 298

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Edited by Talltim

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A grey one would be the next livery I'd be after, and was banking on finding a bargain due to its perceived unpopularity. I like the early UN-named scheme, but that may only lead to the slippery slope of modelling earlier Met electrics....

 

I'd say that you are already on that slippery slope!!!

 

Have fun sliding!

 

John

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No.6 "William Penn" arrived and all locos have been chipped, mistakenly with Bachmann 3 function decoders so I've had to alter the MetroVick's internal wiring to get both cab lights to work at the same time.

 

I've also added publications by Messers Benest and Snowdon to the LU library, not that Mrs 298 was too thankful because they are "full of trains". I've also finalized the track plan enough to be able to order materials to start building the layout.

 

Any ideas as to the liveries of P.O. Coal wagons that might have been seen in the Chiltern Court siding?

If you're looking to model the period 1933 through to the early 1950s, then I have found the names of some relevant coal merchants from the 1930s after going through my various books on the Met. Stephenson & Clarke supplied Neasden Power Station. Their wagons are also seen in a 1930s photo of a train of empties from South Harrow gas works, bearing their "S" "C" logo. So it's not impossible that some of them may have been used for the Chiltern Court deliveries. A.H. Rance was a coal merchant based in Chesham who did have their own wagons, at least one of which was supplied by Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon. Other merchants' names quoted are Darvell's, and Bretnall & Cleland, but there is no information given as to whether they had their own PO wagons.. - Source: Page 53 of Clive Foxell's "images of 150 years....". ISBN 978-0-7524 7009-2, published by The History Press, in 2012. On page 55 of the same book, there is a picture of the goods yard at Chesham, showing one 7 plank wagon with the name "Hargreaves", and another with "LMS". In the same picture there are also 2 of the 3 plank wagons, one marked "MET" and another "LPTB" which is most likely an ex-Met wagon repainted.

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Brentnall and Clelland were a big coal factor, like S&C, and had lots of wagons. Models of their wagons have been made commercially in 0 and 00 ready to run from at least the 1930s onwards, I've got both wood/paper and tin ones in coarse-0, but I don't know how accurate the recent 00 plastic ones are.

 

S&C were long-time suppliers to the Met for both loco and power station coal, so I'd guess that they also supplied for Chiltern Court, although probably in smaller lumps!

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Snippet about the history of B&C here http://cosgb.blogspot.com/2012/12/brentnall-cleland-ltd.html

 

And, it seems that Stephenson Clarke should be SC, not S&C as I thought ...... it was one person /family, not two, and until liquidation in 2012, they were the oldest shipping company in Britain, lasting 282 years. From what I can work out, SC started in the coal business as shippers from Tyneside. They were in a combine with Powell Duffryn from c1930. Powell Duffryn owned oodles of mines in South Wales, and the SC part of the combined business were the sole shippers and sales agents.

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Brentnall and Clelland were a big coal factor, like S&C, and had lots of wagons. Models of their wagons have been made commercially in 0 and 00 ready to run from at least the 1930s onwards, I've got both wood/paper and tin ones in coarse-0, but I don't know how accurate the recent 00 plastic ones are.

S&C were long-time suppliers to the Met for both loco and power station coal, so I'd guess that they also supplied for Chiltern Court, although probably in smaller lumps!

Thanks for the info, I have noticed from the models available that there are two livery variations amongst the Brentnall & Cleland wagons, ie whether the white lettering overlaps the red initials or not. I'll have a look at the names to see if any others have been done as RTR or kits.

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Thanks to the support from a forum member here, I now have enough information to go ahead and design a pretty accurate plan of the coal siding, instead of relying on modellers licence or altering the location to somewhere more generic.

 

 

But the "Smoking Gun" that has yet to be found is a photo of the siding with just a wagon in place. I know that's not exactly the subject matter that a photographer would have pointed his camera at in the 1930s, but I'm hoping something will turn up one day.

Edited by 298

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