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TSD's Workbench - SECR and Industrial modelling


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Speaking of, I've put a few things up on eBay as I've decided I have too many unfinished projects and surplus locos lying around. If anyone's interested, see the listings here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/ts_modelengineering/m.html?item=293985308394&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

I'm getting rid of:

 

The Boulton's loco I've just finished - I need to build another one anyway, so no point keeping two

 

An EE battery electric loco - a later model, I've already got an earlier model which better fits my modelling period

 

An NER Class H (or LNER Y7) - it's been sitting part done for over a year, time to cut my losses. I liked it, but never loved it enough to bother finishing it when I have more interesting locos to do (apologies NER fans!)

 

And a Manning Wardle 0-6-0st spare bodyshell. A spare test print that I haven't ended up needing!

 

All this is in favour of raising money for a controller for the layout. I've ummed and erred over this for ages, considering standard Hornby models (as I already have one), making my own with automated features, re-using an old Morley I have, but eventually I've come to the conclusion that I should just go with the bog standard reliable Gaugemaster Combi. No fancy features, but also no stress, which could do me some good at this point in time!

 

(Edit: I am also regretting my choice of eBay username, I'm expecting beatings from proper model engineers with exquisitely turned brass cudgels)

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I can finally show a couple of other little locos I finished ages ago! An English Electric Type 3b, in a couple of versions, rather fun little locos even if I say so myself. These will shortly be available from Hardy's Hobbies, and the black one is currently for sale on eBay as I don't have enough justification to keep it unfortunately.

 

143146992_415999596279239_5043795156175569149_n.jpg.3d6c9f84630f11eca4d4ad0b8849f769.jpg

 

142966070_459923178359730_8817895810599475812_n.jpg.e675682eaf1590d8fa420f493c9e45b5.jpg

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Have spent the evening doodling a freelance loco with some friends, and this is what we've ended up with. It's not something I would have come up with by myself, and I mean that in a good way! We were aiming for a sort of early but heavier industrial loco, and I think it works out.

 

image.png.01f698e726d3572726b51115a90e7184.png

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There are two types of loco I love - SECR ones and Manning Wardles, and happily there are several ways to combine these...

 

The SECR had, as far as I can work out, 3 Manning Wardles. One F Class, no. 313, bought from a Folkestone Harbour contractor, one possibly a Q Class, 353, that I don't have a lot of info on but worked as the Ashford Works shunter, and one other, 752 that worked Folkestone Harbour, that I only know the works number of (confusingly, works no. 725 of 1879). Given I'm also slowly collecting Folkestone Harbour locos this makes me even happier.

 

If anyone has more info on 353 and 752, please do let me know, particularly if a Class and drawing can be identified for 752. I have a basic drawing of 353, and have started modelling it up as can be seen below.
image.png.8c80591dfc0ea5bbfba2c31747bc473f.png
 

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Although I don't think it was ever actually a SECR loco there is a good photo of Manning Wardle 0-6-0ST Louise on page 24 of John Minns New Century on the SECR. It was owned and used by the contractor William Rigby when widening lines in 1904/05. Sounds a good enough reason for it to appear on a SECR layout :) 

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1 hour ago, TurboSnail said:

 

The SECR had, as far as I can work out, 3 Manning Wardles. One F Class, no. 313, bought from a Folkestone Harbour contractor, one possibly a Q Class, 353, that I don't have a lot of info on but worked as the Ashford Works shunter, and one other, 752 that worked Folkestone Harbour, that I only know the works number of (confusingly, works no. 725 of 1879). Given I'm also slowly collecting Folkestone Harbour locos this makes me even happier.

 

If anyone has more info on 353 and 752, please do let me know, particularly if a Class and drawing can be identified for 752. I have a basic drawing of 353, and have started modelling it up as can be seen below.
 

 

HI Tom

 

SECR 353.  I haven't been able to locate anything definite about this loco, but I have found this PICTURE (about half way down the page.).  This shows a Manning Wardle 'Q' Class as W1 'Medina.'  I don't know if that's the same loco that ended up as the Ashford Works shunter, but it shows what it was like in IOW days.

 

SECR 752/ MW 725.  That was a 'K' Class built 1879 as a contractors loco.  Moved to SECR, sold by SR in 1925 to Northfleet Deep Water Wharf Ltd, where it lasted until 1945. Info from Manning Wardle Works Lists ISBN 0906829089.

 

Link HERE to 'Portishead' and 'Ringing Rock' on the Colonel Stephens railways, both of which are 'K' Class locos.

 

Hope this helps

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51 minutes ago, Moxy said:

 

HI Tom

 

SECR 353.  I haven't been able to locate anything definite about this loco, but I have found this PICTURE (about half way down the page.).  This shows a Manning Wardle 'Q' Class as W1 'Medina.'  I don't know if that's the same loco that ended up as the Ashford Works shunter, but it shows what it was like in IOW days.

 

SECR 752/ MW 725.  That was a 'K' Class built 1879 as a contractors loco.  Moved to SECR, sold by SR in 1925 to Northfleet Deep Water Wharf Ltd, where it lasted until 1945. Info from Manning Wardle Works Lists ISBN 0906829089.

 

Link HERE to 'Portishead' and 'Ringing Rock' on the Colonel Stephens railways, both of which are 'K' Class locos.

 

Hope this helps

 

Thanks! 353 and Medina are different locos, 353 was scrapped in 1932, but if they're both Class Q's then that's useful info. @Killian keane has uncovered a slightly more detailed drawing than the one in Russell's 'Southern Locomotives', though unfortunately low-res, that shows it's not a true Q as it has a few mods from the builder, so I'll be following that rather than look for a 'standard' Q drawing. Though if anyone happens to know of a Q drawing, I won't turn it down...

 

For 752, that's great, I'll have to try and find a drawing for a Class K then! There's a kit for the Class K available from RT models, but again the SECR appear to have fitted a larger cab among other modifications, so I'll have to think about the approach there.

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2 hours ago, TurboSnail said:

There are two types of loco I love - SECR ones and Manning Wardles, and happily there are several ways to combine these...

 

The SECR had, as far as I can work out, 3 Manning Wardles. One F Class, no. 313, bought from a Folkestone Harbour contractor, one possibly a Q Class, 353, that I don't have a lot of info on but worked as the Ashford Works shunter, and one other, 752 that worked Folkestone Harbour, that I only know the works number of (confusingly, works no. 725 of 1879). Given I'm also slowly collecting Folkestone Harbour locos this makes me even happier.

 

If anyone has more info on 353 and 752, please do let me know, particularly if a Class and drawing can be identified for 752. I have a basic drawing of 353, and have started modelling it up as can be seen below.
image.png.8c80591dfc0ea5bbfba2c31747bc473f.png
 

Hi Tom.

 

I have extracted the following details form my library which you may find of assistance.

 

LOCO 313

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway.

 

G class.

 

Ordered 1881, works No. 767 £780.

 

Cylinders 10in x 16in. Coupled wheels 2ft 10in. Wheelbase 4ft 9in. Boiler diameter 2ft 8in.

Copper capped chimney.

New cylinders fitted August 1893 and cab enclosed with side sheets and back plate at same time.

New boiler August 1904 and chimney replaced December 1913. Repainted from Stirling black livery to SE & CR Brunswick green December 1899. Repainted battleship grey October 1916.

Sent to Ashford for general repair May 1919, but not considered worthy of attention and laid aside. Transferred to Service Stock March 1925 and moved to erecting shop where cylinders smokebox and chimney were renewed. painted Southern lined black  and saddle tank lettered Southern Railway (A) Engineer's Department. Used for piloting wagon works or shunting permanent way sidings at Canterbury West line until March 1927. Then transferred to the company's ballast quarry at Meldon. Before leaving, the wheels were re-tyred, the boiler re-tubed and the buffers replaced with large rectangular type to avoid buffer locking. Worked there until March 1938 when the firebox failed to pass inspection. Sent to Eastleigh Works for general repair. On arrival, the frames were found to be badly wasted and loco withdrawn to be replaced by ex LC & DR T class.

 

There are two nice pictures of the engine, one in SER livery and one in full Wainwright livery.

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell there are two pictures, both in the Southern Departmental livery. 

 

 

LOCO 353

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway.

 

Q class.

 

Ordered 6th March 1890. Works No. 1154.

 

Cylinders 14in x 20 in. Coupled wheels 3ft 6in. Wheelbase 5ft 11in + 6ft 1in. Boiler diameter 3ft 6in.

 

Tall chimney fitted with attractive copper cap.

Painted SE & CR Brunswick green in November 1899. New cylinders fitted May 1901. An ungainly stovepipe chimney fitted April 1917 and painted battleship grey at the same time.

Taken into Southern Railway stock in use piloting carriage and wagon works.

Boiler condemned January 1928. Offered for sale, no bidders, so withdrawn December 1929. Officially re-numbered 236S in Southern Railway Service Stock in June 1925, but the number was never carried.

 

There are two nice pictures of the engine. Not sure what the livery of the first is, probably some form of SER. The second is battleship grey.

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell the first picture is also shown in a larger size. Might be useful. There is also a very basic outline drawing.

 

LOCO 752.

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway.

 

K class.

 

12in x 17in cylinders and 3ft coupled wheels.

Coupled wheels 3ft 2in, wheelbase 5ft 5in + 5ft 4in. Boiler diameter 2ft 10in.

Built in 1879 for Joseph Firbank a contractor of East Grinstead, Sussex and named Grinstead.

Sold 1899 to William Rigby of Duffield, and re-named Middleton. Painted dark blue with red and white lining.

This contractor was engaged in various works at Folkestone Harbour. On completion of works, sold the engine to SE & CR in 1904 for £400.

Repairs carried out at Ashford works and a large square cab fitted. Painted in full Wainwright livery.

New Ashford boiler fitted in 1911 and new cylinders in 1913.

 

Shortly after outbreak of WW1, transferred to Tonbridge, then on to Maidstone West. Hop picking season 1915 was shunting at Hawkhurst. 1916-17 stored at Tonbridge. General repair at Ashford June 1917, then returned to Folkestone and remained until the grouping. Ornamental chimney cap removed in June 1918.

After grouping moved to Dover and nicknamed Thumper.

Heavy repairs required again in 1925, so laid aside at Ashford until sold to George Cohen and Sons in 1926.

After repairs, resold to Thames Deepwater Wharf Company Ltd and named Dolphin and painted dark green.

Later passed to its successor, Northfleet Deepwater Wharf Ltd until mid 1943. Seen partially dismantled in July 1944 and gone for scrap March 1945.

NB. Two sizes of wheel quoted.

 

There is also a nice photo of the loco in full Wainwright livery.

 

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell this is a picture of the loco in battleship grey and minus its chimney cap looking rather drab.

 

I believe that the K class was one of the most numerous and that there are two preserved examples.

Definitely need a model of this for my Hawkhurst layout in full Wainwright livery.

 

All the best and look forward to seeing these being developed.

 

Ray

 

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8 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Tom.

 

I have extracted the following details form my library which you may find of assistance.

 

LOCO 313

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway.

 

Ordered 1881, works No. 767 £780.

 

Cylinders 10in x 16in. Coupled wheels 2ft 10in. Wheelbase 4ft 9in. Boiler diameter 2ft 8in.

Copper capped chimney.

New cylinders fitted August 1893 and cab enclosed with side sheets and back plate at same time.

New boiler August 1904 and chimney replaced December 1913. Repainted from Stirling black livery to SE & CR Brunswick green December 1899. Repainted battleship grey October 1916.

Sent to Ashford for general repair May 1919, but not considered worthy of attention and laid aside. Transferred to Service Stock March 1925 and moved to erecting shop where cylinders smokebox and chimney were renewed. painted Southern lined black  and saddle tank lettered Southern Railway (A) Engineer's Department. Used for piloting wagon works or shunting permanent way sidings at Canterbury West line until March 1927. Then transferred to the company's ballast quarry at Meldon. Before leaving, the wheels were re-tyred, the boiler re-tubed and the buffers replaced with large rectangular type to avoid buffer locking. Worked there until March 1938 when the firebox failed to pass inspection. Sent to Eastleigh Works for general repair. On arrival, the frames were found to be badly wasted and loco withdrawn to be replaced by ex LC & DR T class.

 

There are two nice pictures of the engine, one in SER livery and one in full Wainwright livery.

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell there are two pictures, both in the Southern Departmental livery. 

 

 

LOCO 353

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway.

 

Ordered 6th March 1890. Works No. 1154. Q class.

 

Cylinders 14in x 20 in. Coupled wheels 3ft 6in. Wheelbase 5ft 11in + 6ft 1in. Boiler diameter 3ft 6in.

 

Tall chimney fitted with attractive copper cap.

Painted SE & CR Brunswick green in November 1899. New cylinders fitted May 1901. An ungainly stovepipe chimney fitted April 1917 and painted battleship grey at the same time.

Taken into Southern Railway stock in use piloting carriage and wagon works.

Boiler condemned January 1928. Offered for sale, no bidders, so withdrawn December 1929. Officially re-numbered 236S in Southern Railway Service Stock in June 1925, but the number was never carried.

 

There are two nice pictures of the engine. Not sure what the livery of the first is, probably some form of SER. The second is battleship grey.

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell the first picture is also shown in a larger size. Might be useful. There is also a very basic outline drawing.

 

LOCO 752.

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway.

 

Class K.

12in x 17in cylinders and 3ft coupled wheels.

Coupled wheels 3ft 2in, wheelbase 5ft 5in + 5ft 4in. Boiler diameter 2ft 10in.

Built in 1879 for Joseph Firbank a contractor of East Grinstead, Sussex and named Grinstead.

Sold 1899 to William Rigby of Duffield, and re-named Middleton. Painted dark blue with red and white lining.

This contractor was engaged in various works at Folkestone Harbour. On completion of works, sold the engine to SE & CR in 1904 for £400.

Repairs carried out at Ashford works and a large square cab fitted. Painted in full Wainwright livery.

New Ashford boiler fitted in 1911 and new cylinders in 1913.

 

Shortly after outbreak of WW1, transferred to Tonbridge, then on to Maidstone West. Hop picking season 1915 was shunting at Hawkhurst. 1916-17 stored at Tonbridge. General repair at Ashford June 1917, then returned to Folkestone and remained until the grouping. Ornamental chimney cap removed in June 1918.

After grouping moved to Dover and nicknamed Thumper.

Heavy repairs required again in 1925, so laid aside at Ashford until sold to George Cohen and Sons in 1926.

After repairs, resold to Thames Deepwater Wharf Company Ltd and named Dolphin and painted dark green.

Later passed to its successor, Northfleet Deepwater Wharf Ltd until mid 1943. Seen partially dismantled in July 1944 and gone for scrap March 1945.

NB. Two sizes of wheel quoted.

 

There is also a nice photo of the loco in full Wainwright livery.

 

In  Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives by J.H. Russell this is a picture of the loco in battleship grey and minus its chimney cap looking rather drab.

 

I believe that the K class was one of the most numerous and that there are two preserved examples.

Definitely need a model of this for my Hawkhurst layout in full Wainwright livery.

 

All the best and look forward to seeing these being developed.

 

Ray

 

 

Thanks Ray, excellent info as always!

 

There are some good images and a description of 313 on Colin Binnie's site as well, which is what I used when developing that model. Still need to work out what I'm doing with the chassis on that one.

 

Russell's book is my main resource for pictures at the moment, I do need to look into expanding my library though. 

 

Good to have confirmation that the SECR fitted 752's cab - that means I have to be a bit more careful than replicating the style from other Manning Wardles. I've since found more good info here, in the article titled 'Two Unusual SE Tank Engines': https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ along with an excellent pic in SECR Green - that article also gives the wheels as 3ft 2in, though I'm not sure that will make a difference to the model as 3ft wheels are much easier to get!

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2 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

 

Thanks Ray, excellent info as always!

 

There are some good images and a description of 313 on Colin Binnie's site as well, which is what I used when developing that model. Still need to work out what I'm doing with the chassis on that one.

 

Russell's book is my main resource for pictures at the moment, I do need to look into expanding my library though. 

 

Good to have confirmation that the SECR fitted 752's cab - that means I have to be a bit more careful than replicating the style from other Manning Wardles. I've since found more good info here, in the article titled 'Two Unusual SE Tank Engines': https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ along with an excellent pic in SECR Green - that article also gives the wheels as 3ft 2in, though I'm not sure that will make a difference to the model as 3ft wheels are much easier to get!

I think that I have got a book on Manning Wardle standard gauge locos somewhere, but I will have to find it. Not sure if it will provide much more info than you already have.

 

Glad to be of help.

 

All the best

Ray

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Hi Tom.

 

I have found one book, which is not necessarily the one I was looking for.

'Locomotives of Quality' A pictorial history of Manning Wardle and Co. By John E. Simpson.

 

Not much to add. A repeat picture of 313 in Southern livery, but there is another more side on view of 353 in battleship grey with its tall stovepipe chimney.

 

All the best 

Ray

 

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Useful book for anyone wanting to model Manning Wardle locomotives is 'The Locomotives Built by Manning Wardle & Company' volume 2 is standard gauge. ISBN 0953531317 I have a copy of vol 2 and I think vol 1 covers narrow gauge which I don't have. The books  have photos and lot lists giving dates and purchasers.

 

John Arkell

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27 minutes ago, John Arkell said:

Useful book for anyone wanting to model Manning Wardle locomotives is 'The Locomotives Built by Manning Wardle & Company' volume 2 is standard gauge. ISBN 0953531317 I have a copy of vol 2 and I think vol 1 covers narrow gauge which I don't have. The books  have photos and lot lists giving dates and purchasers.

 

John Arkell

Hi John.

 

That's the one I have got, but can't find at the moment.

 

If I remember correctly, it has a list of works numbers and identifies the classes of the locos and give a little bit of historical info. I cannot remember what pictures there were in it though.

 

Volume 1 was narrow gauge and volume 3 was broad gauge. 

 

I could have got all three at a good price, but just got the standard gauge one.

 

All the best

 

Ray

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

You might also like a book Our Annie brought to our attention

 

Here reduced.

 

Bags of photos and line drawings. 

 

Thanks for the tip-off. Unfortunately I found another interesting looking narrow gauge title on there fairly cheap... and then another... I shall have to sell some more locos if I'm not careful!

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On 14/02/2021 at 15:12, wainwright1 said:

Hi Tom.

 

I have extracted the following details form my library which you may find of assistance.

 

LOCO 313

In my copy of D L Bradley - The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway.

 

G class.

 

Ordered 1881, works No. 767 £780.

 

Cylinders 10in x 16in. Coupled wheels 2ft 10in. Wheelbase 4ft 9in. Boiler diameter 2ft 8in.

Copper capped chimney.

 

 

 

 

G Class? Surely a typing error and should be F Class?

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26 minutes ago, Ruston said:

G Class? Surely a typing error and should be F Class?

Quite right Ruston, you have beaten me to it.

 

I have just found my copy of The Locomotives Built by Manning Wardle and Co. Vol 2 Standard Gauge by Fred W. Harman.

 

For some reason, there is no class G. Yes it is a Class F. Dispatched 12th May 1881.

 

I think that is one that you have already been working on Tom, according to you website. Not sure how far you got with it.

 

Would not mind a model of it with its interesting curved cab backplate.

 

By the way, I am trying to find out if the Wainwright lining transfers that Dave Ellis formerly of South Eastern Finecast, commissioned are still available.

 

What I also found, which might be of interest another book, Peckett and Sons Ltd. An Album of Official Photographs. Compiled by Andrew Smith. Mostly side views, plus some pictures of the works and some advertising material.

 

Hope that is of interest.

 

All the best

 

Ray

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37 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

By the way, I am trying to find out if the Wainwright lining transfers that Dave Ellis formerly of South Eastern Finecast, commissioned are still available.

 

That would certainly be of interest...

 

Latest news on the F is this: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134891-tsds-workbench-3d-printing-and-general-bodgery/&do=findComment&comment=4245121

And it's staying like that until I can figure out how to do the clearances on the valve gear, it's all a bit too tight at the moment.

 

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8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

You might also like a book Our Annie brought to our attention

 

Here reduced.

 

Bags of photos and line drawings. 

I purchased the digital version from Pen & Sword in an effort to avoid stacks of books building up all over my room.  Having just discovered a brand new and unopened copy of 'British Steam Locomotive Builders' by James Lowe on my bookshelf that over a year ago must've cost me a fortune to have sent out to my little house in the colonies I've suddenly become a lot more resistant to buying  large reference books.

If you do buy the digital version get it in epub format since the Kindle version is small and cramped up and it's more difficult to see any detail.  SumatraPDF  https://www.sumatrapdfreader.org/download-free-pdf-viewer.html  is very good for reading epub books.

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