TSD's Workbench - SECR and Industrial modelling

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, Annie said:

Is that real Broad Gauge or fake broad gauge of a lesser kind?

 

Probably Irish and Indian gauges

[Annie]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Probably Irish and Indian gauges

   Bother.

 

Oh well that will save me from spending yet more money and being disappointed.

[TurboSnail]

Manning Wardle progress has slowed, the gearboxes I want to use are currently unavailable and I don't want to finalise the chassis before I can get hold of one or two to measure up properly.

 

So in the meantime, as motivation for physical modelling is still a bit lacking, I'm working on another flight of fancy - a small Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T. I had a spare set of Terrier wheels to use up, so I'm basing this one on the SMJ Beyers of the 1880s, downsized to suit a light railway with very light passenger trains. By the time of my layout in the 1910s, it will be relegated to running workmans trains with one or two old 4-wheel coaches. The proportions are based on the W&CPR's Hesperus. but hopefully I've captured enough of the Beyer Peacock design signatures for it to be recognisable.

 

 

 

 

[Regularity]

You might want to consider the IWCR Beyer 2-4-0Ts, too: even smaller.

 

 

On a note of pedantry, the "SMJ" locos were originally the property of its precursor, the "East and West Junction Railway" and certainly so in the photo you have uploaded, which is almost certainly late nineteenth century (and certainly before 1903) and spent most of their working lives as EWJR locos, and were the two which the Swindon, Marlborough and Andoversford couldn't afford of the three they ordered. By the time the SMJR came about, the 2-4-0Ts had been rebuilt with new boilers and new cabs, and lost that quintessential BP look, and that is not a photo of an SMJR engine. These had 4'0" leading wheels (same size as Terrier drivers!) and 5'6" drivers.

 

 

The IWC loco number 8 was still 5' for the drivers, but being smaller might be a better candidate for a small loco? The cab is the real giveaway on these, I think.

 

More interesting photos here:

 

If you want a 2-4-0T based around a Terrier, the Hayling Railway comes to mind as an alternative source, albeit Sharp, Stewart & Co.

 

 

[TurboSnail]

I've taken a few design cues from the IoW examples too, but I've got the 4ft wheels, so might as well use them! I'm deliberately avoiding making a specific prototype with this model, mainly because I find it much quicker to make and that helps it be a bit more fun when I'm not feeling up to making a 'proper' model. Normal service will be resumed shortly! 

[Edwardian]

There were two 4' classes of Sharp Stewart 2-4-0Ts, so far as I can discern. You may struggle to fit the Hornby/Dapol Terrier motor behind the tanks, but worth checking?

 

Summarised here:

 

 

[sem34090]

Ooh - A Freelance BP 2-4-0T?! Just what my freelance company needs. I had intended doing my own CAD for a copy of the IWR tanks but yours looks beautiful!

Edited March 2, 2021 by sem34090

[TurboSnail]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

There were two 4' classes of Sharp Stewart 2-4-0Ts, so far as I can discern. You may struggle to fit the Hornby/Dapol Terrier motor behind the tanks, but worth checking?

 

Well, here's the catch - I have the Terrier wheels, but not the Terrier chassis, so there's an experimental gearbox in it and a custom chassis. Time will tell if this works!

 

Thanks for that info - the proportions are based on the larger of the 4ft types in that case.

[Regularity]

47 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

A Freelance BP 2-4-0T?! Just what my freelance company needs.

I might be going out on a limb here, but minor railways (and sometimes not so minor railways) generally bought off the shelf designs with maybe just a few cosmetic modifications, so for a more plausible freelance company, select one of the standard designs from any of the manufacturers, or indeed the occasional secondhand bargain. (DX goods, Terrier, etc.)

One big reason Dave Taylor’s 0-16.5 Charmouth and Bridport layouts are so effective is that although his “freelance” locos were never built, they were proposed and the consistent Hunslet details carry through to creating believable artifice, to which he has added such obvious gems as a WD Baldwin.

[wainwright1]

Anything Isle of Wight is always appreciated.

I have previously wondered if the Bayer Peacock locos bought by the IWCR and IWR were standard BP designs, similar to Manning Wardle's, with potential detail differences and if other railways also purchased them. That might also apply to the Oldbury coaches which the IWR bought.

No doubt there will be an expert who can provide the answers.

 

Keep up the good work.

Ray

Edited March 1, 2021 by wainwright1

[Regularity]

25 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Anything Isle of Wight is always appreciated.

I have previously wondered if the Bayer Peacock locos bought by the IWCR and IWR were standard BP designs, similar to Manning Wardle's, with potential detail differences and if other railways also purchased them. That might also apply to the Oldbury coaches which the IWR bought.

No doubt there will be an expert who can provide the answers.

 

Keep up the good work.

Ray

Don’t know about the expert bit, but similar designs appeared elsewhere (not just in the UK, either) so it is likely that they were more or less standard designs, for example MSWJR no. 5.

 

Put it another way.
You are in charge of the construction of a local railway. Costs have exceeded expectations, and share calls are being ignored.

You approach a manufacturer about locos/rolling stock.

Certainly they can help. They have stock designs with a proven ability to do the job, which can be delivered relatively soon, and they can even arrange financing to ease the payments over maybe 4 half-yearly payments.

Or you can ask them to design something new. There is no certainty that it will work, or if it does, that it will work economically, but in either case it will have been designed to your specification and errors will be yours and not theirs. And there will be a cost in terms of time as well as money.

They might be able to make a few adjustments, as long as they can use standard parts: smaller wheels and boiler, perhaps - reduces the weight and obviates the need for outside bearings to the leading wheels, for example... ...but it will look the same as most of their products.

 

 

 

[wainwright1]

Thanks Regularity.

 

Todmorden. Now is that in Lancashire or Yorkshire ?

 

[Regularity]

Well, it largely depends if you were born before or after 1888, so anyone younger than about 133 is from Yorkshire...

(Before then, depended on which side of the river(s) you were born.)

But the bit I am moving to was always Yorkshire. 

[TurboSnail]

3 hours ago, Regularity said:

You approach a manufacturer about locos/rolling stock.

Certainly they can help. They have stock designs with a proven ability to do the job, which can be delivered relatively soon, and they can even arrange financing to ease the payments over maybe 4 half-yearly payments.

Or you can ask them to design something new.

 

All approaches are nicely illustrated by the E&WJR, seeing as that seems to be our topic of the day:

 

1) As you say, buy standard - their 0-6-0s were Beyers, bought from the standard range, to a design done for a Dutch railway

2) buy secondhand - ex-contractor locomotives, or older designs from more mainline railways. The E&WJR had an ex-contractor Manning Wardle for a while, as did the SECR

3) buy in-stock locos - often from cancelled orders. The E&WJR acquired two of their Beyers this way after the Swindon, Marlborough and Andover couldn't afford two of the three locos they'd ordered.

 

Source: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smj_locos.htm

Edited March 1, 2021 by TurboSnail

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

 

All approaches are nicely illustrated by the E&WJR, seeing as that seems to be our topic of the day:

 

1) As you say, buy standard - their 0-6-0s were Beyers, bought from the standard range, to a design done for a Dutch railway

2) buy secondhand - ex-contractor locomotives, or older designs from more mainline railways. The E&WJR had an ex-contractor Manning Wardle for a while, as did the SECR

3) buy in-stock locos - often from cancelled orders. The E&WJR acquired two of their Beyers this way after the Swindon, Marlborough and Andover couldn't afford two of the three locos they'd ordered.

 

Which sort of boils down to relying on others to be even less fortunate than yourself.

[Regularity]

22 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

Source: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smj_locos.htm

That’s really funny: I wrote most of that page!

Edited March 1, 2021 by Regularity
Original source: https://ewjr.org/locomotives-of-the-ewjr/

[TurboSnail]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

That’s really funny: I wrote most of that page!

 

Clearly I choose my sources well! 

[sem34090]

18 hours ago, Regularity said:

I might be going out on a limb here, but minor railways (and sometimes not so minor railways) generally bought off the shelf designs with maybe just a few cosmetic modifications, so for a more plausible freelance company, select one of the standard designs from any of the manufacturers, or indeed the occasional secondhand bargain. (DX goods, Terrier, etc.)

One big reason Dave Taylor’s 0-16.5 Charmouth and Bridport layouts are so effective is that although his “freelance” locos were never built, they were proposed and the consistent Hunslet details carry through to creating believable artifice, to which he has added such obvious gems as a WD Baldwin.

That's kind of the intent behind my post - Ideally I'd take something a little bit larger and more standard BP 2-4-0T but I'll take what I can get - @TurboSnail is very much better at CAD work than I am and I haven't the funds for the Golden Arrow Whitemetal kit for an IoW tank.

[TurboSnail]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

That's kind of the intent behind my post - Ideally I'd take something a little bit larger and more standard BP 2-4-0T but I'll take what I can get - @TurboSnail is very much better at CAD work than I am and I haven't the funds for the Golden Arrow Whitemetal kit for an IoW tank.

 

Have you considered a scratch build? You might be able to get a reasonable approximation by replacing the front axle of a Terrier chassis, or possibly a Bachmann Junior 0-6-0 if you want the bigger wheels (not particular familiar with that chassis myself, though). The body shapes are relatively simple to make in plasticard, the main difficulty would probably be the tanks, with the curves at the corners and how they integrate into the footplate.

Edited March 2, 2021 by TurboSnail

[sem34090]

Somewhere I do have an adapted Terrier chassis so it may be worth a shot, but my scratch-building skills are really quite atrocious.

 

I suppose the answer to that is "practice".

[TurboSnail]

13 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

I suppose the answer to that is "practice".

 

And if you practice on a freelance, then you can't get it wrong!

[TurboSnail]

While the Beyer Peacock project is still failing to build itself (despite my best threatening stares) I've been tweaking the SER Manning Wardle Q, and it's nearly there bar a few detail bits. I'm enjoying not having to model 100,000 rivets for a change!

 

[wainwright1]

32 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

While the Beyer Peacock project is still failing to build itself (despite my best threatening stares) I've been tweaking the SER Manning Wardle Q, and it's nearly there bar a few detail bits. I'm enjoying not having to model 100,000 rivets for a change!

 

That's nice. The MW K class with the boxy SE & CR cab in full Wainwright livery would be even nicer !

Just right for shunting on Hawkhurst.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[TurboSnail]

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

That's nice. The MW K class with the boxy SE & CR cab in full Wainwright livery would be even nicer !

Just right for shunting on Hawkhurst.

 

Thanks! I have plans to do the K Class too - there is a kit available here: https://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_022.htm which I'm sure is good, but given the unique cab and other details, plus my budget (or lack of) I'm planning to have a crack at it myself. But I'm doing the larger (read: easier) Q Class first! I need to go back and revise the chassis for my F Class too, then I'll have the full set of SECR Mannings - quite how I'll manage the livery application is still unknown...

[wainwright1]

11 hours ago, TurboSnail said:

 

Thanks! I have plans to do the K Class too - there is a kit available here: https://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_022.htm which I'm sure is good, but given the unique cab and other details, plus my budget (or lack of) I'm planning to have a crack at it myself. But I'm doing the larger (read: easier) Q Class first! I need to go back and revise the chassis for my F Class too, then I'll have the full set of SECR Mannings - quite how I'll manage the livery application is still unknown...

Hi Tom.

 

The RT kit is an etched one and my skills at bending and soldering etchings accurately are not that good.

Someone gave me a Peter K kit for a Manning Wardle, I cannot remember if it was a K or an L. Unfortunately, he had made a right mess of it and I judged it to be a bit too far gone to recover.

I would also like a set of three SE & CR MWs, so keep up the good work. I am sure a lot of other people would also like one.

I did have a word with Dave Ellis a couple of weeks back about the Wainwright loco lining transfers.. He could not remember whether they got passed to Squires with all the other Finecast stuff and Squires were not sure either. Also he could not remember who printed them. I checked with Radley Models website (who I thought might have done them for Dave) and they do offer some Metropolitan and London Transport lining transfers, but not the SE & CR. I might still give Radley a ring to see if they did do them or know who did.

 

All the best

Ray