TSD's Workbench - SECR and Industrial modelling

[TurboSnail]

Things are going on behind the scenes, I'm not posting progress at the moment for a variety of reasons which may or may not get explained at some point.

 

However, I need to make a decision - SER black or the full Wainwright?

 

I may also order the later tender model as it has changed slightly and might go better with the SECR green if I go down that route.

 

The running number I'm pretty sure will be 124, pedants will immediately point out that that was an R class, not an F class but I'm doing it because I use my models as a record of what I was doing in my life at the time I was building them. In this case, the number is significant to where I'm living for the summer. If I was building a super high detail locomotive for exhibition I would do it properly, but as it's a test loco for myself, I prefer just to bend history a little bit.

[CarriageShed]

However, I need to make a decision - SER black or the full Wainwright?

 

Or Maunsell Green for the best livery! That's what I'll be doing with my F1 version in N.

 

Keep up the great work. I love the progress being made in terms of 3D printing for railway modelling. It's highly encouraging.

[TurboSnail]

Does anyone know anything about this particular loco? I saw it and immediately thought I have to build one, so it will be my next CAD project and should hopefully be relatively quick to do. It also happens that conrods are the bane of my life at the moment, so something without any will make a nice change!

 

Any info, particularly drawings and photos would be great, but if I don't get anything I'll make it anyway - it will just be a bit less accurate! I'm suspecting information will be very scarce due to the age and manufacturer, I've done a load of searching and found nothing so far.

 

[ianmaccormac]

The details for this engine from the 20th March 1925 copy of The Engineer, as per Grace's Guide:

Neilson's engines of this type -Fig.81- though built in 1862 for the Dublin and Drogheda Railway, may be mentioned here. It was unique in having both side and saddle tanks, and was one of the earliest to have the footplate completely roofed in. The cylinders were 12in. by 18in. and the driving wheels 5ft. 6 in. diameter.

 

Not a lot of info really but by gimping the photo to get it side on with the wheel diameter known you should be able to work out quite a bit. Or a Google search for the loco may bring up more info?

Hope that helps

Cheers

Ian

[TurboSnail]

The details for this engine from the 20th March 1925 copy of The Engineer, as per Grace's Guide:

Neilson's engines of this type -Fig.81- though built in 1862 for the Dublin and Drogheda Railway, may be mentioned here. It was unique in having both side and saddle tanks, and was one of the earliest to have the footplate completely roofed in. The cylinders were 12in. by 18in. and the driving wheels 5ft. 6 in. diameter.

 

Not a lot of info really but by gimping the photo to get it side on with the wheel diameter known you should be able to work out quite a bit. Or a Google search for the loco may bring up more info?

Hope that helps

Cheers

Ian

 

Thanks Ian, as you say a close-to-side-on picture and the wheel diameter should be a very good starting point. Unfortunately Google hasn't come up with any more at this stage, so I'll have to go with that. I had assumed the side tanks incorporated some of the coal storage as well as water, so that info is definitely useful!

[Caley Jim]

The records of Neilson and Company are held at the NRM.  The company became Neilson, Reid and company, which then became part of the North British Locomotive Company (NBL).

 

Jim

[RedGemAlchemist]

Does anyone know anything about this particular loco? I saw it and immediately thought I have to build one, so it will be my next CAD project and should hopefully be relatively quick to do. It also happens that conrods are the bane of my life at the moment, so something without any will make a nice change!

 

Any info, particularly drawings and photos would be great, but if I don't get anything I'll make it anyway - it will just be a bit less accurate! I'm suspecting information will be very scarce due to the age and manufacturer, I've done a load of searching and found nothing so far.

 

Im1925EnV139-p318.jpg

Hmm. Cute. Sort of thing the KLR would have in the early days. Interesting to see someone do that little guy.

[TurboSnail]

I had lunch today inside one of the Woodhead tunnels, because I chose a very wet day to walk there. Still a nice trip though.

 

The F/F1/B1 classes have been on hold for a little bit while I work on my cakebox challenge as the deadline is starting to loom. If you're interested in big static engines and pumping stations, you might want to check it out here. The 4-4-0s are still ticking over in the background and are almost done, but any release will have to wait until I've finished the test model.

 

So work have extended my contract for a week, but they didn't extend my accommodation so I've had to move into a B&B for the week, hence why I spent a portion of this afternoon working in the car in a supermarket car park. On my budget, this looks like it might be a pretty miserable experience. I can't do any proper modelling while I'm here, so it's going to be CAD week. I'm planning to have a go at the Neilson 2-2-2t posted earlier, hopefully posting my progress every night so that a) you can get an idea of how I make the CAD models and b) I don't go completely mad stuck in the room. I don't have a drawing for the Neilson, I think I've identified the right one in the NRM records, but I'm not planning to use it for copyright reasons so it won't be a super-accurate model. Hopefully it will be an interesting and productive process.

 

[Gibbo675]

I had lunch today inside one of the Woodhead tunnels, because I chose a very wet day to walk there. Still a nice trip though.

 

The F/F1/B1 classes have been on hold for a little bit while I work on my cakebox challenge as the deadline is starting to loom. If you're interested in big static engines and pumping stations, you might want to check it out here. The 4-4-0s are still ticking over in the background and are almost done, but any release will have to wait until I've finished the test model.

 

So work have extended my contract for a week, but they didn't extend my accommodation so I've had to move into a B&B for the week, hence why I spent a portion of this afternoon working in the car in a supermarket car park. On my budget, this looks like it might be a pretty miserable experience. I can't do any proper modelling while I'm here, so it's going to be CAD week. I'm planning to have a go at the Neilson 2-2-2t posted earlier, hopefully posting my progress every night so that a) you can get an idea of how I make the CAD models and b) I don't go completely mad stuck in the room. I don't have a drawing for the Neilson, I think I've identified the right one in the NRM records, but I'm not planning to use it for copyright reasons so it won't be a super-accurate model. Hopefully it will be an interesting and productive process.

 

IMG_20180908_121311.jpg

Hi T-S,

 

Does copyright really extend to using a drawing to build a model ?

 

I only ask because either I have misunderstood your context of your use of a Neilson / NRM drawing or that copyright really is that draconian.

 

As for Woodhead, what a waste of a railway !

 

Cheers,

 

Gibbo.

[Guy Rixon]

I'm pretty certain that any copyright on the original drawings expired years ago. NRM might be able to claim copyright on recent, digital scans of same.

 

Concerning expiry of the copyright on the original, see the explanation of the law by the UK Copyright Service. Technical drawings are classes as artistic works for copyright purposes, and the copyright expires on new year's day of the 70th year after the death of the longest-surviving contributing creator. Where the creator or creators are unknown, the 70 years run from the date of creation. In works for hire, where a company owns the copyright, the creator's lifespan still detemines duration of copyright.

[Gibbo675]

I'm pretty certain that any copyright on the original drawings expired years ago. NRM might be able to claim copyright on recent, digital scans of same.

 

Concerning expiry of the copyright on the original, see the explanation of the law by the UK Copyright Service. Technical drawings are classes as artistic works for copyright purposes, and the copyright expires on new year's day of the 70th year after the death of the longest-surviving contributing creator. Where the creator or creators are unknown, the 70 years run from the date of creation. In works for hire, where a company owns the copyright, the creator's lifespan still detemines duration of copyright.

Hi Guy,

 

As I understand copyright of works drawings it is held by that works and not the creator as they were being paid to produce for that works.

 

Thanks,

 

Gibbo.

[TurboSnail]

Hi T-S,

 

Does copyright really extend to using a drawing to build a model ?

 

I only ask because either I have misunderstood your context of your use of a Neilson / NRM drawing or that copyright really is that draconian.

 

As for Woodhead, what a waste of a railway !

 

Cheers,

 

Gibbo.

 

As Guy says, the copyright probably ran out decades ago, but I also can't verify that the drawing I need is the right one (there are four that fit the description) without spending money, either on photocopies, or a trip over to do the research myself. As it's only a quick project, and I'm modifying it considerably anyway (the original is 5ft 3in gauge, mine is going to be OO), I think I'll get away with using the picture. I have resized it and corrected it for perspective so it shouldn't be too dissimilar to a side-on drawing.

[Guy Rixon]

Hi Guy,

 

As I understand copyright of works drawings it is held by that works and not the creator as they were being paid to produce for that works.

 

Thanks,

 

Gibbo.

 

Doubtless, but re-read my post. The point is that the lifetime of the human creator, not the company, determines the curation of copyright.

[TurboSnail]

Today's go-outside-as-much-as-possible trip was to the Middleton Railway, felt more like a 'family' place than an 'enthusiast' one and is well worth a visit if small industrial and shunting engines are your bag. A tiny NER H class 0-4-0t was in steam today.

 

Episode 1 of the CAD saga is coming later!

 

[RedGemAlchemist]

Today's go-outside-as-much-as-possible trip was to the Middleton Railway, felt more like a 'family' place than an 'enthusiast' one and is well worth a visit if small industrial and shunting engines are your bag. A tiny NER H class 0-4-0t was in steam today.

 

Episode 1 of the CAD saga is coming later!

 

IMG_20180909_121111.jpg

Definitely one on my list. And anything LNER always interests me.

[TurboSnail]

The CAD story, Episode 1.

 

Time elapsed: 5 hours

 

The combined efforts of yesterday and today (mostly sat in car parks) have given me a good start with the Neilson 2-2-2t. The lack of a drawing is speeding up the process as I don't have to worry much about absolute accuracy, so I have the footplate mostly done, the shape of the cab and tanks done, the boiler done and the smokebox started.

 

It looks like I'm further in than I am, the big outline parts like these are the quickest to draw, the details are what takes the time, and especially the chassis and motorisation. Speaking of, I still have no idea if powering it is at all feasible...

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

The lack of a drawing is speeding up the process as I don't have to worry much about absolute accuracy, 

 

The ideal would be to have no photo either. It's the natural extension of my favourite dictum that one should always model a class member for which there is no good photo.

[Skinnylinny]

Based on the photo you're working on, what's the diameter of the driving wheels and leading/trailing wheels? Also, how about the wheelbase?

[TurboSnail]

Based on the photo you're working on, what's the diameter of the driving wheels and leading/trailing wheels? Also, how about the wheelbase?

 

I have scaled the photo based on information from the NRM, where there is a drawing of a Neilson 2-2-2t locomotive listed as being sold to the 5ft 3in gauge Dublin and Drogheda Railway in 1862, which tallies up with the description of the locomotive in The Engineer, where the photo is taken from. I shortlisted four possible drawings from the NRM, none of the descriptions fitted exactly, but they're all very similar. The driving wheels are 5ft on that loco, so I'm planning to use a 20mm wheel in OO, with the leading/trailing wheels at 14mm. I can't remember the wheelbase exactly, but the length (without buffers) is 85mm and the width 30mm, hence why I'm a bit worried about fitting a motor in!

[TurboSnail]

The CAD story, Episode 2.

 

Time elapsed: 10 hours

 

Over yesterday afternoon and today, I have amassed another 5 hours on the Neilson 2-2-2t, and no-one is more surprised at the rate of progress than myself. Admittedly the dome, chimney and leaf spring are resized parts stolen from other projects, but still that's not bad work for someone more used to dithering than doing. 

 

The motor fits! Just... I couldn't have made it any closer if it was planned. It's using the same motorisation method as the F class, more details on that in previous posts. As usual for my drawings, the non-printed bits are coloured in orange. There was no space for my preferred pickups, so I've put in a couple of mounting points for some phosphor bronze strip.

 

The biggest challenge so far was the chassis - having different sized wheels in a fixed chassis is a good way to make sure some of them never touch the rails, so I've had to come up with a spring system to try and keep all the wheels on the ground. The eventual solution is to fit vertical brass rod into the 'wheelblocks' (the squareish bits behind the smaller wheels that hold the axle), which then slide into brass tube in the chassis to allow vertical movement. The wheels will also have some play side-to-side so cornering should be ok as well. A small bit of foam or a tiny spring can then fit in between the main chassis and the wheelblock and should provide just enough springyness to make it work. All in theory only, of course...

 

It's really not too far off being finished, so I'll have to think of something else to do for the rest of the week. If there's anything missing from the model as it stands, or that you think should be added/changed, please let me know as I've probably forgotten about it!

 

 

 

And then I got really bored and coloured it in

 

[Skinnylinny]

Oooooh, very nice. Keeps the cab nice and clear and leaves some space over the driving wheels for weight. Any chance of seeing it in navy blue with red bufferbeams please?

[Edwardian]

 

The CAD story, Episode 2.

 

Time elapsed: 10 hours

 

Over yesterday afternoon and today, I have amassed another 5 hours on the Neilson 2-2-2t, and no-one is more surprised at the rate of progress than myself. Admittedly the dome, chimney and leaf spring are resized parts stolen from other projects, but still that's not bad work for someone more used to dithering than doing. 

 

The motor fits! Just... I couldn't have made it any closer if it was planned. It's using the same motorisation method as the F class, more details on that in previous posts. As usual for my drawings, the non-printed bits are coloured in orange. There was no space for my preferred pickups, so I've put in a couple of mounting points for some phosphor bronze strip.

 

The biggest challenge so far was the chassis - having different sized wheels in a fixed chassis is a good way to make sure some of them never touch the rails, so I've had to come up with a spring system to try and keep all the wheels on the ground. The eventual solution is to fit vertical brass rod into the 'wheelblocks' (the squareish bits behind the smaller wheels that hold the axle), which then slide into brass tube in the chassis to allow vertical movement. The wheels will also have some play side-to-side so cornering should be ok as well. A small bit of foam or a tiny spring can then fit in between the main chassis and the wheelblock and should provide just enough springyness to make it work. All in theory only, of course...

 

It's really not too far off being finished, so I'll have to think of something else to do for the rest of the week. If there's anything missing from the model as it stands, or that you think should be added/changed, please let me know as I've probably forgotten about it!

 

222t2.JPG

 

222t3.JPG

 

And then I got really bored and coloured it in

 

222t4.JPG

 

 

Wow, great stuff; wish I worn't so broke ...

[TurboSnail]

Oooooh, very nice. Keeps the cab nice and clear and leaves some space over the driving wheels for weight. Any chance of seeing it in navy blue with red bufferbeams please?

Funnily enough, that's exactly the livery I have planned for said engine! Sort of SECR-esque but with dark blue instead of green.

 

Wow, great stuff; wish I worn't so broke ...

Me too, I'll have to stop designing stuff at some point so I don't have to buy and build it all...

[sem34090]

Wow...

 

I say this in jest, but with skills like that I may as well give up now!

[TurboSnail]

Wow...

 

I say this in jest, but with skills like that I may as well give up now!

I felt like that when I was first learning CAD at uni, but eventually you realise that even the most complicated looking things are just a bunch of rectangles and cylinders stuck together. The hardest part of CAD is getting your head around the user interface.

 

Anyway, I still need to catch up to you, as you actually have models working...