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TSD's Workbench - SECR and Industrial modelling


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"Whatever happened to the Judean Popular Peoples' Front?"
"He's over there..."
[in chorus]: "SPLITTER!"

*ahem*

That Neilson's gorgeous - I may have to acquire one at some point! I am also fighting the urge to go for one of the Manning Wardles too, but really can't justify it appearing deep in LSWR territory!

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1 hour ago, Ruston said:

It's something used by some "finescale" modellers in building model locomotives and is supposedly the "cutting edge of technology", although it makes the locomotive run/stay on the track, no better than one that uses simple compensation. It's the next big argument to kick off in the P4 world and will make the gauge wars look like a teddy bears picnic, or so I am told... :rolleyes:

One could of course go to the forum of the S4 society and actually read the posts concerning the value of CSBs. There was much debate, because they are an interesting technology. There was no war, hardly even a heated argument.

 

The lasting desire to smear P4 modellers sickens me.

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23 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

One could of course go to the forum of the S4 society and actually read the posts concerning the value of CSBs. There was much debate, because they are an interesting technology. There was no war, hardly even a heated argument.

 

The lasting desire to smear P4 modellers sickens me.

 

Lest I be smeared as a smearer, my only real insight into this subculture was as a nonplussed witness to some pretty heated correspondence in old copies of MRJ that I once came across.  

 

The propensity to be opinionated and pedantic afflicts this hobby generally, though one might be forgiven for the impression that the risk increases the nearer to perfection one strives!

 

Generally I suspect that the finescale community bears significant responsibility for how it is perceived.  I am inspired and influenced by Iain Rice's writing, but I suspect that is because he is one of the few able to translate from finescale culture to something more accessible and demotic. 

 

Moving back towards the topic, a package arrived today at Aching Towers: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130022-secr-traffic-on-the-tonbridge-cut-off/&do=findComment&comment=3465380

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I have nothing against finescale modellers since I used to be one.  Possibly it was the group I was involved with, but eventually I just had to leave for the sake on my own sanity.  Opinionated and pedantic, - those guys had it by the barrow load.  It wasn't just me, shortly after I left the group the group leader's wife left him because he was such an A grade XXXXXXX so yes it was pretty awful.

I used to make things like 19th century 0-4-0 Manning Wardles in brass in P4 (not a kit all hand made), - lovely little jewels of things.

Edited by Annie
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13 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

I see that the walls on the tender print are translucent where they are exposed in front of the coal space. I wonder, how thin are these parts?

 

Very thin! I use a minimum wall thickness of 0.75mm for small areas, and for larger flat surfaces like this tender, it's 1mm. I've done a fair bit of experimentation and thinner walls are possible, but I prefer to keep it to 1mm (or more) where possible so that they print reliably every time.

Edited by TurboSnail
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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Generally I suspect that the finescale community bears significant responsibility for how it is perceived.  I am inspired and influenced by Iain Rice's writing, but I suspect that is because he is one of the few able to translate from finescale culture to something more accessible and demotic. 

 

With due respect to my learned friend, I must speak in defence of the 2fs community who have a reputation for being encouraging, accepting and tolerant of all.  In over 40 years membership I have never seen any heated discussions or falling out. 

 

Jim 

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Just now, Caley Jim said:

With due respect to my learned friend, I must speak in defence of the 2fs community who have a reputation for being encouraging, accepting and tolerant of all.  In over 40 years membership I have never seen any heated discussions or falling out. 

 

Jim 

 

That seems an entirely fair corrective, Jim, and I apologise for typing with my 4mm blinkers on.  I don't have to take your word for it either, though I'd be happy to; anecdotally online and at exhibitions I have found 2Fessers consistently friendly.

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1 minute ago, TurboSnail said:

 

That's a heck of a macro lens if you can actually see the print lines. Each of those lines is 25 microns wide...

Certainly, but is that actually what we're seeing? I've always suspected that there are patterns along the z-axis at much longer spatial-frequencies than the layer-size, caused either by issues in the slicing software or misalignments between layers in the printers. 

 

That said, Edwardian's photos are exceptionally sharp and the revealed texture is going to vanish like scotch mist under the thinnest coat of primer.

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7 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

 

That's a heck of a macro lens if you can actually see the print lines. Each of those lines is 25 microns wide...

 

Just now, Guy Rixon said:

Certainly, but is that actually what we're seeing? I've always suspected that there are patterns along the z-axis at much longer spatial-frequencies than the layer-size, caused either by issues in the slicing software or misalignments between layers in the printers. 

 

That said, Edwardian's photos are exceptionally sharp and the revealed texture is going to vanish like scotch mist under the thinnest coat of primer.

 

Certainly that's more than my Mark I Eyeball reveals. 

 

I do indeed suspect that filler primer will not be necessary and that plain primer will smooth out any relief pattern there might be.  

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4 hours ago, Ruston said:

It's something used by some "finescale" modellers in building model locomotives and is supposedly the "cutting edge of technology", although it makes the locomotive run/stay on the track, no better than one that uses simple compensation. It's the next big argument to kick off in the P4 world and will make the gauge wars look like a teddy bears picnic, or so I am told... :rolleyes:

Hi Ruston,

 

Are P4 those that have really lovely fine scale wheels and track work to offset the ugliness of the huge great big knuckle coupling hung from the buffer beam ?

 

I have to say I spent enough time with my profile and wear gauges along with wrestling real springs onto the flexible couplings of real axle boxes, in a real pit, under real locomotives,  before then rawling on with spring adjusters while the locomotive floated on the Kelbus gear to be fiddling on with my models to that extent.

 

I like my OO gauge stuff for its simplicity.

 

Cheers,

 

Gibbo.

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17 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

have to say I spent enough time with my profile and wear gauges along with wrestling real springs onto the flexible couplings of real axle boxes, in a real pit, under real locomotives,  before then rawling on with spring adjusters while the locomotive floated on the Kelbus gear to be fiddling on with my models to that extent.

And that is exactly the point of CSBs: that the suspension can be made to give good enough weight distribution and running at the design stage without having to adjust afterwards.

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12 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

And that is exactly the point of CSBs: that the suspension can be made to give good enough weight distribution and running at the design stage without having to adjust afterwards.

Hi Guy,

 

When I wrote "real locomotive" I mean actual real locomotives, some of which have twenty two ton axle loads and run at 75mph on Network Rail sort of real !

 

Gibbo.

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13 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Guy,

 

When I wrote "real locomotive" I mean actual real locomotives, some of which have twenty two ton axle loads and run at 75mph on Network Rail sort of real !

 

Gibbo.

Yes, I understood. Full-size suspensions are harder than model suspensions and the design-it-so-it's-never-adjusted approach doesn't work for full-size vehicles, given the greater degree of wear and the far higher requirements for safety and reliability. For 4mm-scale models, CSBs do eliminate the need to adjust, if they're designed properly, and this I hold to be a good thing. But unless TS expresses an interest in printing chassis with CSB fittings (doable, never been done AFAIK), we should drop the subject on this thread.

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3 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

With due respect to my learned friend, I must speak in defence of the 2fs community who have a reputation for being encouraging, accepting and tolerant of all.  In over 40 years membership I have never seen any heated discussions or falling out. 

 

Jim 

I feel it only appropriate here to mention S Scale, brothers-in-arms to 2mm FS in pioneering finescale modelling techniques. (Although CSB seems to be a P4 concept.)

There was a bit of ill-feeling generated in the 90s between S7 and 0 gauge, but that seems to have settled down now.

 

Yes, S7 does look better than 0 gauge, and P4 than EM than 00, everything else being equal. But it’s not for everyone. End of story!

 

In S, unless one follows North American or “anglosphere antipodean” prototype’s, there isn’t anything with other standards to compare with. Rather relaxing, actually.

 

I have said it before, but about 15 years ago I asked Bob Essery what made him switch from 0 to S7. His response was startling in its simplicity: he realised that having to cut holes in the boiler to accommodate 0F wheels for a Midland “Spinner” was making things more complicated than if it was being built to S7 standards.

That is a reason worthy of serious consideration.

 

I recently came across a letter in an early 1960s MRN, from “Smokey” Bourne, which revealed the truth behind the origination of EM.

It started with a set of wheels to the British Railway Modelling Standards Bureau* “00” finescale standard profile, set to provide a scale dimension over the outer faces.

If they had used the BRMSB flangeways, the gauge could have been 18.75mm, but they felt this was too sloppy, and it was reduced to 18mm (hence EM, of course), but later on it was relaxed slightly to 18.2mm.

It won’t surprise many that the letter was somewhat ill-tempered about the proposed P4...

 

* Like the “Model Railway Study Group”, a bunch of self-appointed experts. Nuff sed!

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Chaps and Chapesses,

 

I made a silly comment, based on something that a P4 modeller friend recently told me - that's all. I have no personal opinion on the merits, or otherwise, of CSB, or P4 modelling in general and I certainly never expected that my comment would end up with Turbosnail's thread being hijacked and I am sorry that it has.

 

If we can please let him have his thread back, I will go and crawl back under my stone...

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Maybe I'll have to take back my thread, by force if necessary! In this case, the combined forces of Messrs Sharp, Stewart and Co.

 

I'm having a go at fixing a reject print, to join the burgeoning Shakespeare Colliery fleet. This is based on the same model Linny is currently building, but with a weatherboard cab and a different motorisation method that I'm not sure will work yet...

 

IMG_20190212_213733.jpg.1cac94857acf9ae486a906df9d5c5a7d.jpg

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Full of character.  I'm thinking that the West Norfolk Minerals Railway might like one ...

 

Still, must wrestle with the Neilson 2-2-2 first!

 

Mind you, I could do with just such a SS chimney for WNR No.3.

Edited by Edwardian
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