sem34090 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 After reading the Guardian article on the recent Loughborough Junction incident, I was intrigued by this article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/doomsday-preacher-wimbledon-train-station-passengers-flee It raised a few interesting points in my mind: Who was in the wrong, if anyone? Was it the 'speaker' or the passengers who decided to leave the train via the emergency door releases? This wasn't classified as an emergency (As far as I know) and it is always advised to remain on the train unless otherwise instructed. The guard here is praised for their dealing with the situation - does this perhaps highlight another reason why staff on trains -besides the driver- are not to be dispensed with as Southern/GTR gradually have been? I think the RMT are right in their plight here, even though the potential strikes are not necessarily going to help matters, but I digress. Did the 'speaker' actually do anything illegal? Unadviseable and perhaps undesirable, quite probably, but did he actually contravene any laws? The comments appear certainly to have been deeply misguided and will appear to most of us to be wrong. It's an unusual incident, certainly, and one I was intrigued to see RMweb's reaction to. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just shows how 'jumpy' those working in London are getting!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just more proof that the stoical British attitude that saw us through two world wars has disappeared from this country. RIP Blitz Spirit, you will be missed - Alex A lot of the so-called 'Blitz spirit' was a construct of the Ministry of Information, I suspect. There were certainly large-scale casualties caused when people panicked in their attempts to get into shelters when a warning siren sounded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Was it this fellow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Was it this fellow? i-will-execute-on-them-great-acts-of-vengeance-with-furious-punishments-they-will-have-to-know-that-.jpg Strangely enough that's exactly the film clip I thought of when reading the OP. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 20 years ago I was on a train and a purveyor of religiousity started something similar, in that case a large Glaswegian lamped him one instead, it was far less disruptive. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 It does make me wonder how I would have reacted in the same circumstance. What if it had been a different 'religion' this man was spouting? I do find this kind of thing ("speakers" giving it large about 'religion') to be quite intimidating and I always take a detour to avoid them as I think they are "misguided" to say the least. There is a time and place for everything and 08.30 on a crowded commuter train is not it. And, wearing a rucksack while he's doing it? Idiot! Sincerely, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Not a new problem. From The Trains We Loved by Hamilton Ellis. E L Ahrons described "...a prayer meeting held on his behalf by a party of Welsh evangelists in a Brecon and Merthyr third class smoker, which meeting came to a premature end when one of the two engines on the train developed violent valve trouble going up Torpantau Bank, opening vistas of an abrupt return down the back with Eternity at the bottom." "The gentleman who had shown so much solicitude for my future welfare was obviously ill at ease. Now that it had come to the point that there was even a bare suggestion of his having to leave this bad and sinful world for a better one, he did not appear to be in any great hurry to quit." The Ahrons account Is credited to the Railway Magazine of August 1922 Best wishes Eric 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozzy280472 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I can see problems coming for these "preachers" ...sooner or later one of them will earn themselves a real good kicking . Even if they are harmless ,people are getting very twitchy nowadays especially in London and particularly when religion comes into it . I don't understand what makes these people believe they have the right to irritate and upset others spouting this rubbish ... believe what you want by all means but don't inflict it on others ...I mean " homosexuality is a sin ...repent " bloody hell , get a grip. What a crock of c**p. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Did the 'speaker' actually do anything illegal? Unadviseable and perhaps undesirable, quite probably, but did he actually contravene any laws? Depends, but it doesn't look like it on this occasion. Byelaw 6 covers 'Unacceptable behaviour' but the comments from those actually in the carriage suggest he wasn't offensive, threatening, abusive indecent or disorderly. There was an issue a few years ago near us where the police were arresting street preachers on a weekend for public order offences which of course caused outrage amongst those who had heard about it but not seen it. Standing on a box in a city centre reciting scripture, even very loudly, is not a public order offence; however these were standing outside nightclubs shouting 'whore' and 'jezebel' at every woman who went in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I can see problems coming for these "preachers" ...sooner or later one of them will earn themselves a real good kicking . Even if they are harmless ,people are getting very twitchy nowadays especially in London and particularly when religion comes into it . I don't understand what makes these people believe they have the right to irritate and upset others spouting this rubbish ... believe what you want by all means but don't inflict it on others ...I mean " homosexuality is a sin ...repent " bloody hell , get a grip. What a crock of c**p. A variable but significant proportion of these folk with religious mania are folk with psychotic illnesses who have been released from hospital "into the community". I would very much doubt that they have sufficient insight to realise that they are upsetting people. Perhaps better to suggest that they might find a more receptive audience on a platform rather than on a train? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 It's no use using words like reasonable or is it legal when people panic. Panic frequently kills more than the action causing the panic. The Old Testament is a book put together to guide people and help them live a good life. It's an old book from a time when smiting and righteousness were the norm. Some folk don't seem able to move forward from that time! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Context is everything.I think (as this thread was posted in mid 2018 and the incident and report are from 2017) it needs the context that this took place only two weeks after somebody had actually tried to blow up a District line tube train, quite close to there... >The guard here is praised for their dealing with the situation - does this perhaps highlight another reason why staff on trains -besides the driver- are not to be dispensed with as Southern/GTR gradually have been? I think the RMT are right in their plight here, even though the potential strikes are not necessarily going to help matters, but I digress. Again, remember the context - this report is from a left-leaning newspaper, writing a rail related story during the middle of an industrial dispute between central government (with a rail company as proxy) and the unions about guards.Of course the story says the guard should be praised - the mention of the guard (and no mention of staff at Wimbledon or the driver on board, or any other staff involved) is entirely deliberate.Don't get me wrong, i'm broadly supportive of a second staff member on most trains - i'm sure the extra staff member helped settle things down after the panic here, but in reality the presence of a guard on the train didn't prevent somebody from doing something stupid and causing a panic, and it didn't prevent the uncontrolled evacuation either. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 And, wearing a rucksack while he's doing it? Idiot! Actually that's my view of anyone who insists on keeping their rucksack on their back on a crowded commuter train. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 Fair points raised by all here. I do wonder whether there would have been a similar response to someone of another faith, and I expect there would. It's intimidating either way, and I say that as one who believes! No need to force your views on others, something I frequently remind an atheist friend of mine who is constantly trying to 'convert' me! Lovely person, just a bit irritating at times. My only concern is that perhaps a different paper would have taken people leaving when one of another faith spoke as offensive and not politically correct. If one is to be treated as offensive then all should be - no discrimination is 'positive'. Anyway I digress again, and accept that I did apparently lapse the fact that the Daily Fail would be reporting that the guard did good. It is however backed up by my own experiences of travel, but yet again I digress. I seem to be very good at digressing today! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozzy280472 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 A variable but significant proportion of these folk with religious mania are folk with psychotic illnesses who have been released from hospital "into the community". I would very much doubt that they have sufficient insight to realise that they are upsetting people. Perhaps better to suggest that they might find a more receptive audience on a platform rather than on a train? I can see where you're coming from with the mental illness angle but unfortunately I'm not sure that will cut it when a couple of people get fed up/scared/annoyed with the ranting and take the issue further . Not wishing to dismiss mental illnesses but it does seem that anyone who causes trouble or bother is instantly labeled as such and I'm not sure that's right or fair to people who have real problems. My brother in law was diagnosed with mental health problems , i didn't agree then and I don't now , he was a heroin addict nothing more or less . It seemed the diagnosis was an easy cover all excuse by the health service to get shot of him from the DR's and hospital. Anyway back to the topic in hand , I don't think being on the platform would be a good idea either...all you need is a shove from someone in the wrong direction and who knows what would happen. Just my views . 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Speaking as an atheist, can we talk about trains and people, you know real things.. 1 The train is no good if people can jump out of it at will. 2 Partitions in carriages may prevent mass panic. 3 Banning back packs on public transport might help? 4 No it won't!! Unfortunately this and other occurrences prove that the terrorists work is done. What about individual transport pods? I can't help but think that instead of getting rid of guards operating companies should be hiring more, preferably of the big strapping variety. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted June 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) Depends, but it doesn't look like it on this occasion. Byelaw 6 covers 'Unacceptable behaviour' but the comments from those actually in the carriage suggest he wasn't offensive, threatening, abusive indecent or disorderly. There was an issue a few years ago near us where the police were arresting street preachers on a weekend for public order offences which of course caused outrage amongst those who had heard about it but not seen it. Standing on a box in a city centre reciting scripture, even very loudly, is not a public order offence; however these were standing outside nightclubs shouting 'whore' and 'jezebel' at every woman who went in. There's a Monty Python sketch in there somewhere! Mike. Edited June 21, 2018 by Enterprisingwestern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 I feel the comment "you know, real things" was a tad uncalled for, but I agree with the major point there. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Last time I was stuck on a crowded commuter train in that vicinity wondering what was going on was 12th December 1988 ........ nobody panicked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) Editied, too inciendiary ... Edited June 22, 2018 by rob D2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2018 It's no use using words like reasonable or is it legal when people panic. Panic frequently kills more than the action causing the panic. The Old Testament is a book put together to guide people and help them live a good life. It's an old book from a time when smiting and righteousness were the norm. Some folk don't seem able to move forward from that time! Maybe the appropriate thing, in either era, would have been for somebody to give him a righteous smiting. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Editied, too inciendiary ... Possible incendiaries in this bloke's rucksack might well have been in the forefront of the minds of those nearest to him, tbh... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 In the Guardian article Mick Cash of the RMT is reported as saying 'Panic could have broken out but for the guard’s calm and measured response'. Given that passengers forced open doors and evacuated onto open, electrified lines, panic is exactly what did break out ! No doubt the guard (and other railway staff) did as good a job as possible in difficult circumstances but unless the guard had happened to be in the same coach as the individual concerned this incident could not have been prevented. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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