Heath Town and other signalling diversions

[Clive Mortimore]

Good to see progress there Paul.

[5BarVT]

Baseboards 1 and 2 are painted and ready for the track base and then track laying.  Unfortunately they are no.s 23 and 24 of 26 in the track laying sequence!  A life as a dumping ground for baseboard construction tools and parts awaits.

Boards 1 and 2 for tracklaying are in the paint shop 25% complete.

Paul.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Baseboards 1 and 2 are painted and ready for the track base and then track laying.  Unfortunately they are no.s 23 and 24 of 26 in the track laying sequence!  A life as a dumping ground for baseboard construction tools and parts awaits.

Paul,

 

Try to plan your baseboard / tracklaying sequence such that you can have 'some' track laid and trains running before all the baseboards are complete. It gives a nice break from the tedium of baseboard building.

 

Ian

[5BarVT]

55 minutes ago, ISW said:

Try to plan your baseboard / tracklaying sequence such that you can have 'some' track laid and trains running before all the baseboards are complete. It gives a nice break from the tedium of baseboard building.

Thanks Ian,

The plan is to work from the bottom up so once I have the first six boards I can start some testing of trains shuttling backwards and forwards.  After that I’ll push on to get the continuous run done (another 5 boards), then the ramp (5 more), the main station (4) then the upper fiddle yard.  At each stage to operational opportunities increase.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

What A Match!

No spoilers for those ahead or behind GMT who may not have seen France v Wales, but I’ve just had over 80 mins on the edge of my seat.  Great entertainment.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

Track Laying? Not yet!

 

 

Not laying track yet, just trying for fit so that I know where the Tortoises will go before fitting bracing.

Test was successful so hopefully bracing construction tomorrow.

Paul.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[5BarVT]

Two steps forward, one step back . . .

Having checked my design I cut out the bracing pieces and filled with enthusiasm I glued them in place.  Yesterday morning I remembered that I was supposed to drill the wiring holes first . . . 

So a day of working out exactly what wires and cables needed to go where, drilling a funny angles 'cos I couldn't get the large bits straight, much sanding and shaping with the mini drill (= bodging to make small holes larger) and it is now ready for the paintshop.

:-)

Paul.

P.S. The next board has pencil notes on the underside listing everything that needs doing before the bracing goes in!

[ISW]

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Having checked my design I cut out the bracing pieces and filled with enthusiasm I glued them in place.  Yesterday morning I remembered that I was supposed to drill the wiring holes first . . . 

Paul,

 

That's one of the reasons I adopted the 'put holes everywhere' method. It also helps to slightly lighten the baseboard as well:

 

And since, at the time of baseboard building, I didn't have a clue about the final wiring it seemed the most logical way to ensure there would always be a wiring hole to use (subject, of course, to Sods Law).

 

Ian

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hi Paul,

 

Just stumbled upon this and enjoyed reading from start to finish. I especially like the flowing points coming out of the station and into the curve, they look brilliant. Looking forward to following your progress in the future.

 

All the best,

Dave

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, DavidMcKenzie said:

Hi Paul,

 

Just stumbled upon this and enjoyed reading from start to finish. I especially like the flowing points coming out of the station and into the curve, they look brilliant. Looking forward to following your progress in the future.

 

All the best,

Dave

I saw the string of ‘likes’ peppered through the thread, thank you.

I wanted to avoid reverse curves to improve running and became a convert to Peco curved points.  It had the desired effect and looked good too.  The new station plan has some reverse curves into and between the middle sidings: time will tell how that impacts on shunting with Kadees.  Still curved on the approach because that’s the only way to fit the space.

Paul.

[DavidMcKenzie]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

I saw the string of ‘likes’ peppered through the thread, thank you.

I wanted to avoid reverse curves to improve running and became a convert to Peco curved points.  It had the desired effect and looked good too.  The new station plan has some reverse curves into and between the middle sidings: time will tell how that impacts on shunting with Kadees.  Still curved on the approach because that’s the only way to fit the space.

Paul.

The nice curved points seems to distract a bit from the overall curve that's needed to make it fit in a room. I guess it's impossible to make a 90 Deg turn that's needed to fit the layout to the space available look 100% realistic (but at the end of the day it is a model and should be fun and enjoyable ), but the point work definitely distracts nicely and hides the curve as well as anything I've seen. 

 

All the best,

Dave

[melmerby]

On 15/04/2021 at 20:55, ISW said:

Paul,

 

That's one of the reasons I adopted the 'put holes everywhere' method. It also helps to slightly lighten the baseboard as well:

 

And since, at the time of baseboard building, I didn't have a clue about the final wiring it seemed the most logical way to ensure there would always be a wiring hole to use (subject, of course, to Sods Law).

 

Ian

You could've used ply for the sides as well. (I did)

It's far more rigid than softwood in a vertical direction.

[ISW]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

You could've used ply for the sides as well. (I did)

It's far more rigid than softwood in a vertical direction.

Indeed I could, but I was already using 44x18mm timber for the support framework, so it was logical to use it for the baseboard framework as well. Plus, I didn't have to cut sheets of plywood down to 44mm wide strips, which would not have been very accurate using my circular saw (even with a straight edge guide).

 

Nonetheless, I did use plywood for some baseboard framework in those areas where the depth was not 44mm (mostly on the Upper Level baseboards), and for baseboard bracing where I could use up the 'spare' bits from the baseboard tops.

 

If I was starting all over again, I'd probably use plywood for the framework and bracing, mostly because I now have a simple (aka cheap) table saw that makes ripping plywood into strips a breeze!

 

Ian

[melmerby]

13 hours ago, ISW said:

Indeed I could, but I was already using 44x18mm timber for the support framework, so it was logical to use it for the baseboard framework as well. Plus, I didn't have to cut sheets of plywood down to 44mm wide strips, which would not have been very accurate using my circular saw (even with a straight edge guide).

 

Ian

TBH I'm not a fan of softwood frames as often that that is being "braced" is often stronger than the bracing.

I've actually used 100 x 10 plywood sides and they are rigid enough to support my not insubstantial bulk without giving.

Edited April 18, 2021 by melmerby

[5BarVT]

Relaxation

Just spent a couple of sessions doing the bit of construction that I enjoy the most - wiring.  DCC distribution almost complete on the first board.  Only two wires x16 so far; incoming feeder to come and then 64 droppers when I lay the track!

Photo to follow once I've finished.

Paul.

[ISW]

14 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Only two wires x16 so far; incoming feeder to come and then 64 droppers when I lay the track!

Photo to follow once I've finished.

Paul,

 

Remember to keep the wiring tidy, logical, and labelled. It'll serve you well in the future. And, if you have time, document the wiring on a drawing to help with future troubleshooting and/or amendments or upgrades.

 

Ian

[5BarVT]

That’s the plan.

Blue is for DCC+ or DC+ or Data+

Brown is for DCC- or DC- or Data-

Green/Yellow is switched DCC or Data signal.

Red is for DCC+ or DC+ or Data+

Black is for DCC- or DC- or Data- or Input common

Yellow is Point motor drive or Data signal or DC+

White is point motor drive, or point drive signal or input

Grey is for point drive signal or input

. . . all simple and logical and easily identified. . . 
 

Paul.

Edited April 23, 2021 by 5BarVT
Add additional use.

[5BarVT]

Perhaps I should add a little more to clarify the previous post . . .

 

Blue/Brown/GreenYellow are mains flex and the sheath colour defines to use:

White sheath is DCC

Black sheath is data

Flat 2c black is DC power

 

All the other colours are 7/0.20 and twisted in pairs or threes so the combination of colours says what it is.  The only duplicate is Red/Yellow/Black which is data to the modules (terminals are too small for 16 strand flex) and point power for my home built drive unit but they are distinguished by data being connector to bare ends and point drive being connector to connector.  There will be some labelling, but it’s mostly ‘obvious’ (and not reliant on memory!).

 

Paul.

[ISW]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

There will be some labelling, but it’s mostly ‘obvious’ (and not reliant on memory!).

Paul,

 

You'd be surprised just how much that it 'obvious' in the present becomes 'blurred' in the future ... I've learnt that lesson many times during my career!

 

Ian

[5BarVT]

And a photo so as you can see my colour coding in action.  Just DCC and data wiring as this board only has 8 parallel tracks.

 

 

A word of warning: I've used WAGO electric wiring connectors and very nice they are.  Others used WAGO 221 series, I went for 222 (I think because of electrical specification, but it was a marginal decision).  I now know I was wrong!!!  The 221 series have a flat back so can stick straight onto the board, 222 have a 30 degree slope at the hinge end - you can see the plywood supports I've had to make sticking out on the 2 way connectors on the left of the photo.  Just adds a bit of extra work at the preparation stage for wiring up so not a disaster but 'next time' I would go for 221 series.

 

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[5BarVT]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

 There will be some labelling, but it’s mostly ‘obvious’ (and not reliant on memory!).

Some element of truth, but also provocative!

4 minutes ago, ISW said:

You'd be surprised just how much that it 'obvious' in the present becomes 'blurred' in the future ... I've learnt that lesson many times during my career!

Agreed, I'm only retired 2 months and finding how much I relied on knowing where to find things that I now cannot access!

Also true for layout wiring, but you'll see from the photo above that limited labelling is sufficient.  It is also backed up with a spreadsheet that lists board name, track ID, position on distribution board (= input on data module (deliberate equivalence)), and Loconet ID.  Experience on my previous layout shows that this is sufficient, albeit with some logical thought.

Thanks for your concern (like all good railway engineers, wanting to help others get it right): I think I've got it covered.  Famous last words!

Paul.

[ISW]

12 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

And a photo so as you can see my colour coding in action.  Just DCC and data wiring as this board only has 8 parallel tracks.

 

 

Paul.

Paul,

 

Those 'wago' type connectors are interesting. Not seen them used on a model railway before. What's the 'topside' look like, where the 'wago' is connected to the track?

 

Then there is the 'home built drive unit' (I'm guessing) at the bottom-centre of the photo. Any more details as to its function / features / purpose?

 

Ian

[5BarVT]

Hi Ian,

 

If I describe how the board works that should answer both questions as we go.  This board is just 60% extra from one of my previous boards shown in my 30 June 2019 post - that one has extra pieces that this one doesn’t have yet. 
So . . .

DCC comes in via the XLR plug bottom right onto the ‘home made distribution board’. The 6 black blocks (should be 8, 2 yet to fit) are toroidal current transformers for train detection.  Also yet to be fitted are the wires through the centre for DCC.  So all it is is an 8 way distribution board with each of the 8 track outputs giving a signal out if the transformer when current is drawn.  Each transformer output is connected to one pair of the UTP cable that will be connected to the track circuit module.

On the previous layout I used 2 way distribution boards and this is just a larger version of same.  In the 30.6.19 photo you can see them connected to the RR Cirkits Watchman board.

The track outputs go to the RH set of WAGO connectors - 2 x 3 way - inner pair is feed, middle pair is off to the LH end, outer pair (empty) will have the droppers in once I’ve laid the track.  The LH set are 2 x 2 way, inner pair for incoming feed, outer pair for droppers.  So all they are is a more expensive version of the ‘choc block’ connectors I used last time.

Finally, at the top is the data cable with a three way distribution board- again that just replaces the black choc block used last time.

I’ve gone away from terminals, especially chock block types because 1. they were difficult to get wires into and get tight and 2. I found I was getting loose copper strands which bridged out across stripboard solder points and was blowing up expensive boards, so this time I’m using pre terminated cables or compression connectors wherever I can.  In theory it means I can keep spare terminated cables to swap out any that fail very quickly.  I suspect that the first installation will have enough life to see this layout out but that’s the idea anyway.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

40 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Ian,

 

If I describe how the board works that should answer both questions as we go.  This board is just 60% extra from one of my previous boards shown in my 30 June 2019 post - that one has extra pieces that this one doesn’t have yet. 
So . . .

DCC comes in via the XLR plug bottom right onto the ‘home made distribution board’. The 6 black blocks (should be 8, 2 yet to fit) are toroidal current transformers for train detection.  Also yet to be fitted are the wires through the centre for DCC.  So all it is is an 8 way distribution board with each of the 8 track outputs giving a signal out if the transformer when current is drawn.  Each transformer output is connected to one pair of the UTP cable that will be connected to the track circuit module.

On the previous layout I used 2 way distribution boards and this is just a larger version of same.  In the 30.6.19 photo you can see them connected to the RR Cirkits Watchman board.

The track outputs go to the RH set of WAGO connectors - 2 x 3 way - inner pair is feed, middle pair is off to the LH end, outer pair (empty) will have the droppers in once I’ve laid the track.  The LH set are 2 x 2 way, inner pair for incoming feed, outer pair for droppers.  So all they are is a more expensive version of the ‘choc block’ connectors I used last time.

Finally, at the top is the data cable with a three way distribution board- again that just replaces the black choc block used last time.

I’ve gone away from terminals, especially chock block types because 1. they were difficult to get wires into and get tight and 2. I found I was getting loose copper strands which bridged out across stripboard solder points and was blowing up expensive boards, so this time I’m using pre terminated cables or compression connectors wherever I can.  In theory it means I can keep spare terminated cables to swap out any that fail very quickly.  I suspect that the first installation will have enough life to see this layout out but that’s the idea anyway.

Paul.

So what is wrong in wiring a layout up with all black wires, not labeled. No fancy connectors for dropper wires or wires to the point motors and signals, brass nails hammered part way in to the underside of the baseboards with at times multiple wires soldered to them.  A layout I was helping on, we had an electrical problem, and the geezer who wired it up was not there. "Clive are you any good at sorting out wiring"?

 

My wiring is untidy, needs to be cable formed still, but I use multiple colours, all with a label each end and all documented. Some thing isn't working I can trace the wiring very easily. Mind you I was baffled the other week. I had a short, on multiple sections. Loco OK. Couldn't see any problem with the wiring. I picked up my can of drink and all the trains started to run.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[ISW]

Paul,

 

Thanks for the very clear explanations. I'm not one for block-detection (yet?) so am no au-fait with such niceties. All-in-all the wiring is actually quite straight-forward. 

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

I’ve gone away from terminals, especially chock block types because 1. they were difficult to get wires into and get tight and 2. I found I was getting loose copper strands which bridged out across stripboard solder points and was blowing up expensive boards, so this time I’m using pre terminated cables or compression connectors wherever I can.

 

I agree with the sentiments regarding chocolate-block connectors. Yes, I did use them for the board-to-board jumper cables, but I did take the additional step of soldering all the copper strands together on each wire before clamping into the blocks. That solved the 'stray strands' issue, plus it gave something more positive for the screw terminal to clamp onto.

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

The track outputs go to the RH set of WAGO connectors

 

Interestingly, WAGO connectors were not allowed by the signalling engineers of Taiwan High Speed Rail due to their unreliability. I think their concern was the ease at which cables can be mis-connected to the WAGO (lever down, but no electrical connection). Probably not on your list of concerns though ...

 

Ian