Pecketts Wharf.

[sb67]

Having finished my last layout, I've been thinking about the next one. Having been inspired by the likes of Drewry Lane, Shelfie, Arun Quay and a few others I've come up with this. I'm trying to use some code 75 track I've already got which includes a 3 way point. I've an area about 5ft long by 1ft, I might be able to add a couple of more inches and I'm hoping to be not be too specific with the era etc so I can run my Peckett, Andrew Barclay and also class 03 and 08. I was thinking of a warehouse at the top right siding and or a canal quayside along the front with inset track etc. The fiddle yard would run from the 3 way point and just be a single track.
I've also got some code 100 track and points and I wondered about using that to build the layout and hiding it under inset track and concrete etc although I haven't done a plan using that.
I'd appreciate any advice or opinions.
Steve.

Edited November 7, 2018 by sb67

[Zomboid]

If you're using tiny locos then I'd suggest making the run round a bit longer and the headshunt a bit shorter.

[The Johnster]

I'm with Zomboid on this one; allow 1 inch more than your longest loco (08) past the rail join for the turnout.  

 

Or dispense with the run around altogether.  As you are proposing a situation in which BR locos are working on to what must be a private wharf or sidings, since you are going to be using industrial steam locos, you can run in to a reception/departure road with the BR diesel, and attach the privately owned steam loco to the rear of the train; shunting it will release the BR loco. which then stands aside somewhere or retreats off layout until the outward bound traffic is ready for collection.  Or you can propel on to the layout with the BR loco; this was allowed in many places under the authority of the relevant Sectional Appendix.

 

But I am liking both versions of the layout; this is very good stuff for a second attempt!

[Harlequin]

Have you got access to the fiddle yard from behind or from the end? Or is access easy from above? If so, maybe you could make more use of the space in front of it.

 

If you ran track in front of the fiddle yard it could disappear "into the wings" to give the illusion of there being more going on outside the scene (even if no vehicle ever actually goes there...)

[sb67]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will operate the layout from the front so I'll try to keep easy access to it.

Steve.

[Zomboid]

You could still extend that front siding into a part relief building and park an extra wagon or two in the non-scenic bit.

To be honest if you're after a shunting plank, there's infinite variations available, but the fundamental of what you've drawn there are probably as good as any unless you want to do something especially unusual.

[sb67]

Thanks, guess the next bit is to play with stuff and wagon lengths etc on a baseboard to see what will work. I think I like the top plan as not too much of the track is parallel with the board edge.

Steve.

[sb67]

Having had a search for some track I've come across a code 100 3 way point and small radius y point. I was thinking of using this and wondered what this idea would be like to operate? It's based on a layout called Horsely Bank, the fiddle yard being a sector plate conecting the 3 tracks.

 

[Harlequin]

I think you can only answer that if you know what operations you want to perform, think them through and ask yourself some questions like: What are the sidings for? Is there room to store the locos and rolling stock that you want to use? Can you operate the sector plate without getting frustrated?

 

Sorry, but as a plan without anything else to go on it looks it bit purposeless to me...

[sb67]

I think you can only answer that if you know what operations you want to perform, think them through and ask yourself some questions like: What are the sidings for? Is there room to store the locos and rolling stock that you want to use? Can you operate the sector plate without getting frustrated?

 

Sorry, but as a plan without anything else to go on it looks it bit purposeless to me...

 

That's the bit I struggled with with my last layout, I didn't really have and idea as to what the sidings did, so as nice as the layout was the operation asn't that good.  I know I'd like the top siding to go into a loading dock/warehouse, the only stock I plan to run will be 0-8-0 and small wheelbase wagons.

Steve.

[Harlequin]

That's the bit I struggled with with my last layout, I didn't really have and idea as to what the sidings did, so as nice as the layout was the operation asn't that good.  I know I'd like the top siding to go into a loading dock/warehouse, the only stock I plan to run will be 0-8-0 and small wheelbase wagons.

Steve.

 

Well, your modelling looks amazing so if you can sort the operations out you'll surely be onto a winner!

 

I've been thinking about the requirements in your opening post over the past few days and I have got an idea... It's a dockside scene with a difference (!) and it relies on being able to connect small cassettes to the sides to act as the fiddle yard. So basically 5ft * 1ft but with 15in cassettes hooked on temporarily when you need to run on or off scene...

 

I have worked this out in some detail but I don't want to stomp on your own ideas so let me know if you'd rather that I post it here, PM you or just shut up.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Harlequin

[sb67]

Well, your modelling looks amazing so if you can sort the operations out you'll surely be onto a winner!

 

I've been thinking about the requirements in your opening post over the past few days and I have got an idea... It's a dockside scene with a difference (!) and it relies on being able to connect small cassettes to the sides to act as the fiddle yard. So basically 5ft * 1ft but with 15in cassettes hooked on temporarily when you need to run on or off scene...

 

I have worked this out in some detail but I don't want to stomp on your own ideas so let me know if you'd rather that I post it here, PM you or just shut up.

 

Thank you Phil, I'd love to see your ideas. I cant say any of my plans are original and I love the fact that people can come up with something different. 

You're right about thinking through ideas. As much as I like the plan with a 3 way and a Y I'm not sure if it would work operated from the front as I dont think I could build a sector plate and get it to work hidden behind a building.

Steve.

Edited June 28, 2018 by sb67

[The Johnster]

Everybody's individual approach to layout planning is, well, individual; full marks for stating the obvious, Johnster!  My approach is to imagine the moves I want to accomplish on the layout, running through them in sequence in my mind, for some time, a few weeks, before even drawing a rough track plan.  On a layout like yours, where space is at a premium and every centimetre counts, planning needs to be very precise, and I recommend making up card templates to represent the turnouts, which can be positioned and pinned temporarily in place so that you can check clearances before anything irreversible happens; you can use this stage to practice your movements as well.

 

But make sure you are alone when you do this; nothing looks more like playing trains!

[sb67]

Everybody's individual approach to layout planning is, well, individual; full marks for stating the obvious, Johnster!  My approach is to imagine the moves I want to accomplish on the layout, running through them in sequence in my mind, for some time, a few weeks, before even drawing a rough track plan.  On a layout like yours, where space is at a premium and every centimetre counts, planning needs to be very precise, and I recommend making up card templates to represent the turnouts, which can be positioned and pinned temporarily in place so that you can check clearances before anything irreversible happens; you can use this stage to practice your movements as well.

 

But make sure you are alone when you do this; nothing looks more like playing trains!

Thanks Johnster, I have some point templates somewhere so I'll use those, I'm thinking of trying to challenge myself to using just the y and 3 way so I guess I should take my time with the planning.

Steve.

[The Johnster]

Take time on the mental imaginary pre-planning as well; it'll save you loads in the actual planning!

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

(You can move templates around in a computer and imagine operating the designs produced that way, of course...)

 

Here's the thing that I came up with using that method:

 

The main ideas are:

• Dockside/Harbour/Wharf railway.
• Viewpoint from land looking over the dockside to the sea, river, canal basin.
• Use OO set track to get the industrial light railway feel (inset into dockside surface).
• 5ft by 1ft all scenic shelf layout with connections near the front for cassettes to serve as "fiddle yard".
• Lots of operating potential.

[Click to enlarge]

 

In detail:

 

The viewpoint from the land side is a bit different and means that:

• You can do a harbour scene without having to model the water
• Water and harbour wall do not take up valuable space
• The profile of the baseboards is simpler
• Railway lines that turn inland turn towards the front of the layout and towards the operator (good for a shelf layout)
• Buildings frame the views
• The viewpoint is more realistic - you are standing in or amongst buildings or on a hill instead of hovering over water!

Set track and code 100 rail gives tighter radius curves, more appropriate for dockside railways, show off small shunter locos to their best and helps to fit a more complex design into a small space. Since it's inset, most of it is hidden.

 

Cassettes

• Free up space in the scene
• Are easy to access
• Easy to prepare trains for entry into the scene
• Hook onto the layout so don't take up permanent space
• Store rolling stock safely under the layout.

Wagon turntables

• Interesting detail
• Those at the front of the layout (because of the inverted viewpoint) can actually be used to bring wagons in and out of warehouses.
• Add to operating potential - remove and inject wagons from the scene in a realistic way. Fulls in, empties out or vice versa.

Trackplan

• Basically two opposing lines enter the scene, turn, and run parallel to each other. Crossovers between them form a run round loop.
• Extra sidings and limited headshunts make marshalling interesting.
• The layout maybe a bit fanciful but that's partly compression, partly represents a dockyard that evolved and ended up a bit odd and muddled (as happens in real life) and partly whimsy
• The crossing in the centre (Streamline) is a feature I very much wanted to incorporate because it's something that I enjoy seeing in dockyard railways - a track suddenly cuts across others
• The crossing means that run round operations are a bit more involved!
• The layout could be simplified but then it would lose some interest and character. It's subjective.
• Room to run round 5 wagons
• Headshunts long enough for 08 shunter plus one or two wagons.
• Cassettes long enough for 08 plus 3 wagons
• The diamond crossing and the left-most point are Streamline parts, all others are Set Track.

Operations

• All about the transshipment of goods between ships, warehouses and inland - in both directions
• Either both feed lines are port authority lines or, maybe more interestingly, the left hand line connects to the local railway company and the right hand is the port authority.
• Lots of arrival and departure combinations
• Lots of ways to run round trains and shunt the wagon to particular locations in particular orders:
  • Some wagons must be left to stand alongside the harbour wall for a while
  • Some go to stand outside warehouses
  • Some go to wagon turntables and into the warehouses
  • Some come on scene, get re-marshalled and go off-scene again

Scenery

• Buildings are used as view blockers to hide entry/exit of tracks from scene and to hide the back corners
• Buildings frame scenes
• Backscene shows view over water
• Plenty of scope for gritty, grimy detail
• Possibly find a spot for an oily loco fueling point
• Possibly have travelling cranes running on or straddling the harbour-side line

Some useful background info:

http://www.igg.org.uk/rail/12-linind/docks.htm

Edited June 30, 2018 by Harlequin

[sb67]

Thanks for that Phil, I like that plan. What was the software you used to get that? I like the write up as well, wish I could think of stuff like that. I really like the veiwpoint from the land, Gordon Gravett used it on Arun Quay and it looks great, I also like the complex way of using the run round loop.  Using set track is interesting as well, I've go a couple of set track points so I might have a play with them, the only reservation I would have is the dead frog and short wheel base locos. It has definately got me thinking of how to do stuff.

Steve.

[NHY 581]

Morning Steve.

 

 

I work on the 'less is more' principle. Paper planning is one thing but there is no substitute for setting up the track and buildings and seeing how it will look in 3D. If I can, I add in a temporary electrical feed and play trains for a bit

 

I also tend to remove or add buildings and just look from different angles. Take photos as well as the camera sees it for what it is.

 

 

On the subject of buildings, I find that low buildings work better and add to an 'open feel'.

 

 

In short. Do your own thing. You know what this layout needs to do for you. Don't get pulled about with too much advice or you could still be mulling this over months from now.

 

Phil's post is very comprehensive but in my opinion it appears to be very busy with a lot of trackwork. I much prefer your initial sketches in your opening post, the top one in particular.

 

 

Just do it.

 

 

Rob.

Edited July 1, 2018 by NHY 581

[Harlequin]

Thanks Steve, Hopefully there are some useful ideas in there!

 

You're probably right that the insulated frogs of set track would be a pain but on the plus side, because of the larger angle and small radius, the frogs are quite small. Maybe there's some alternative product or scratch-building some points might be an option? It might also be possible to use Streamline small radius points with extra turning angle in the track beyond but they would take up much more room.

 

The design was done in a normal drawing program. I think they give you more freedom than the dedicated track planning packages. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/

Edited July 1, 2018 by Harlequin

[The Johnster]

Insulfrogs are not the bugaboo that some people reckon in my view; I use them on medium radius Streamline turnouts on Cwmdimbath with no issue in the interests of electrical simplicity, which equals reliability in my book, but it is important that the track is laid level and smoothly, and that pickups are in good order and clean.  They are shorter on setrack, but this advantage is negated by the sharpness of the curvature on the turnout, which pulls loco wheels to the limit of their sideplay and can play havoc with pickups if they are not finely adjusted to the work.  Check your back to backs as well.

 

A layout like this benefits in one way from setrack, as the sharp curvature is kept more accurate than can be achieved with flexi, but you will probably be using 4 wheeled locos, and these are of course the most likely to stall on dead frogs; a strict cleaning regime, attention to track laying, and ensuring that your locos sit square and level to the track are your friends here!

 

I like the plan, by the way, especially the complex run around, which gives it a lot of character.  

[sb67]

Thanks Steve, Hopefully there are some useful ideas in there!

 

You're probably right that the insulated frogs of set track would be a pain but on the plus side, because of the larger angle and small radius, the frogs are quite small. Maybe there's some alternative product or scratch-building some points might be an option? It might also be possible to use Streamline small radius points with extra turning angle in the track beyond but they would take up much more room.

 

The design was done in a normal drawing program. I think they give you more freedom than the dedicated track planning packages. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/

 

Thanks Phil. I'm going tto read throught that thread but I''ll admit my computer skills are a bit basic so not sure if I can get to grips with it.

Steve.

[sb67]

 

Just a quick question and sorry if it seems obvious to some, but using the plan above, which is based on a plan from a book on 7mm railway modelling, the loop A should be able to accomodate the max length of wagons from my fiddle yard/sector plate and  I could make shunting more interesting by limiting the length of headshunt B So to get a train into the warehouse C it would have to be broken down? The top siding could be a yard/quayside, not sure where the veiwpoint would be, but I like the idea of the quay at the back. I quite like the plan as it would use up some track I have but I wonder if it could be  a bit limited. 

Steve.

[NHY 581]

Morning Steve.

 

 

I still think Plan A in your opening post is the way forward. You mention both Arun Quay and Shelfie as inspiration. Having seen both at exhibitions, the fact that they have a full loop is very much part of the appeal and adds a great deal to the operation.

 

 

My own layout, Sheep Lane has a loop and my next layout, Bleat Wharf also has this. Both are smaller than your proposed layout, Sheep Lane is 110cm and Bleat is 120cm so this is easily done.

 

 

Keep the loop. I appreciate you are trying to use existing track 'in stock'but I would suggest you finalise a plan based on what you want to do rather than what's available.

 

Does your local model shop take part exchange on track? Mine does. I part exchanged a few unwanted points against new trackwork to get what I wanted for Bleat.

 

Rob

Edited July 2, 2018 by NHY 581

[sb67]

Thanks Rob

 

Morning Steve.


I still think Plan A in your opening post is the way forward. You mention both Arun Quay and Shelfie as inspiration. Having seen both at exhibitions, the fact that they have a full loop is very much part of the appeal and adds a great deal to the operation.


My own layout, Sheep Lane has a loop and my next layout, Bleat Wharf also has this. Both are smaller than your proposed layout, Sheep Lane is 110cm and Bleat is 120cm so this is easily done.


Keep the loop. I appreciate you are trying to use existing track 'in stock'but I would suggest you finalise a plan based on what you want to do rather than what's available.

Does your local model shop take part exchange on track? Mine does. I part exchanged a few unwanted points against new trackwork to get what I wanted for Bleat.

Rob

 

Thanks Rob, I have never built a layout with a full loop and I do have enough code 75 to use so the 1 of the top plans will definitley get built as I do like them. I'm going to an exhibition on Saturday so I might see some track there as well, I only need a couple of points after all. I do like the complex run around though, suggested by Phil, Arun quay has something similar.

Steve

[NHY 581]

Thanks Rob

 

 

 

Thanks Rob, I have never built a layout with a full loop and I do have enough code 75 to use so the 1 of the top plans will definitley get built as I do like them. I'm going to an exhibition on Saturday so I might see some track there as well, I only need a couple of points after all. I do like the complex run around though, suggested by Phil, Arun quay has something similar.

Steve

 

 

 

Morning Steve.

 

 

The loop just looks better and gives more 'fun value

 

 

 

I just think Phil's plan, though probably providing a lot of moves is perhaps just too complicated, a bit busy.

 

The challenge a small layout provides is how to make it look bigger. Arun accomplishes this in big dollups . It only has one fiddle yard but I think the appearance and the illusion the layout as a whole gives, is down to careful selection and placing of the buildings.....and not cramming trackwork in

 

Arun is roughly 7ft long so could be done in 4ft in 4mm.

 

 

Rob