POLL: 3D printed Stone-Faiveley pantograph

[MGR Hooper!]

Hey everyone,

 

Last year I had designed a Brecknell-Willis pantograpgh kit, it was well received and I've decided to have a go at making a replica of a Stone-Faiveley type which was most commonly used by the Class 86 and if I recall correctly the APT-P and a few EMUs.

 

We all know that 3D printing has it's limitations and so does the material it is 3D printed in. With that in mind I have made a 3D model of the Stone-Faiveley type pantograph. I'm attaching pictures below of the CAD work, bear in mind that it's as close as possible I've been able to get it with the limited pictures and information available online. I have however paid more attention to the upper and lower arm as that's what really makes the pantograph.

 

 

 

 

I've uploaded it to Shapeways and it's passed the initial tests for FUD. I was hoping it would pass the test in brass as well, but unfortunately the insulators didn't make it, and beefing up the insulators won't look so good. But it has passed the checks for FUD.

My plan is to offer it in raised and lowered positions. There'll obviously be 1 lowered variant and I am thinking about atleast 3-4 variants of the raised one, each at a different height. It will obviously be based on the Hornby Class 86 in relation to the rest like Peco or Dapol catenary.

Please note that it's not meant for those detailed obsessed, accuracy obsessed people. It's meant for those who just want something better looking than what's currently available and those who just want to paint it and plonk it on. Fell free to complete the poll attached with this thread. And there's no option to vote NO because it's only targeted at those who want one.

I am open to suggestions etc, please PM if you'll have any suggestions.

[ClikC]

This looks excellent.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[MGR Hooper!]

This looks excellent.

 

Regards

 

Matt

Thank you Matt

[Gordon H]

Can't help noticing that the base appears to be in a square formation, rather like the Sommerfeldt 968 uses.

The 'forward' base legs should be longer than the 'rear' ones, as per the Hornby 86. Bachmann 85 etc.

This was one of the most annoying features of the original Lima 87 when it came out - they had compromised the roof detail where the pan mounts to make it fit the square based diamond frame they adopted for it at the time.

[MGR Hooper!]

Can't help noticing that the base appears to be in a square formation, rather like the Sommerfeldt 968 uses.

The 'forward' base legs should be longer than the 'rear' ones, as per the Hornby 86. Bachmann 85 etc.

Thanks for the note, as the CAD currently stands, the base isn't square, it's actually got the rear legs longer than the front. A simple reverse tool will fix that. Thank you for pointing out the error. If you have some detailed images of the pantograph base, please send me a PM with the images so that I can further enhance the CAD.

 

PS: It looks square because the screenshots are taken when the CAD was being viewed in the parallel projection view.

 

EDIT: Image below shows the base post-reversal. The longer legs are now in front.

 

 

I hope that this is what you meant?

Edited June 26, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[Gordon H]

The 'post reversal' picture immediately above should have the longer legs on the left hand side, not the right hand side as shown.

According to this post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110547-drawings-and-parts-for-classes-81-to-84-and-86-to-89/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2286563 the insulator spacings are 69 1/2" by 57" (Approx 1765 mm x 1448 mm, or  23.17 mm x 19 mm in 4mm scale)

However, there is no definitive information given as to what the division is either side of the head position.

In the past when modifying Sommerfeldt 968's with brass side frames, I have always assumed the shorter legs to be at a 45 deg angle, with the longer ones angled a bit less to suit the overall dimensions.

[MGR Hooper!]

The 'post reversal' picture immediately above should have the longer legs on the left hand side, not the right hand side as shown.

According to this post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110547-drawings-and-parts-for-classes-81-to-84-and-86-to-89/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2286563 the insulator spacings are 69 1/2" by 57" (Approx 1765 mm x 1448 mm, or 23.17 mm x 19 mm in 4mm scale)

However, there is no definitive information given as to what the division is either side of the head position.

In the past when modifying Sommerfeldt 968's with brass side frames, I have always assumed the shorter legs to be at a 45 deg angle, with the longer ones angled a bit less to suit the overall dimensions.

We'll seems like I had it correct all along. I shall reverse the base once again and back to it's original position. I will check the distances between the insulators abd make corrections if needed.

[298]

I put the discrepancies down to the cad image viewpoints, but know why Gordon was right to question the insulator footprint dimensions.

 

I'd also expect a short rounded pegs under the insulators to locate the Pan into the existing roof holes, otherwise how is it going to be fitted to a model?

[MGR Hooper!]

I put the discrepancies down to the cad image viewpoints, but know why Gordon was right to question the insulator footprint dimensions.

 

I'd also expect a short rounded pegs under the insulators to locate the Pan into the existing roof holes, otherwise how is it going to be fitted to a model?

Well firstly pegs aren't really needed. People are more than capable of lining it up by simply using the holes on the Hornby model as a guide.

 

But yes the 3D print will have pegs. I'm designing a simple frame around it (to help the 3D print during shipping). And the frame will be joined to the pantograph's insulators by what will essentially be the pegs.

[298]

Well firstly pegs aren't really needed. People are more than capable of lining it up by simply using the holes on the Hornby model as a guide.

 

So how is it held in place?

[Satan's Goldfish]

So how is it held in place?

I'm going with 'superglue'.

[Gibbo675]

Hey everyone,

 

Last year I had designed a Brecknell-Willis pantograpgh kit, it was well received and I've decided to have a go at making a replica of a Stone-Faiveley type which was most commonly used by the Class 86 and if I recall correctly the APT-P and a few EMUs.

 

We all know that 3D printing has it's limitations and so does the material it is 3D printed in. With that in mind I have made a 3D model of the Stone-Faiveley type pantograph. I'm attaching pictures below of the CAD work, bear in mind that it's as close as possible I've been able to get it with the limited pictures and information available online. I have however paid more attention to the upper and lower arm as that's what really makes the pantograph.

 

1.jpg

 

2.jpg

 

3.jpg

 

I've uploaded it to Shapeways and it's passed the initial tests for FUD. I was hoping it would pass the test in brass as well, but unfortunately the insulators didn't make it, and beefing up the insulators won't look so good. But it has passed the checks for FUD.

 

My plan is to offer it in raised and lowered positions. There'll obviously be 1 lowered variant and I am thinking about atleast 3-4 variants of the raised one, each at a different height. It will obviously be based on the Hornby Class 86 in relation to the rest like Peco or Dapol catenary.

 

Please note that it's not meant for those detailed obsessed, accuracy obsessed people. It's meant for those who just want something better looking than what's currently available and those who just want to paint it and plonk it on. Fell free to complete the poll attached with this thread. And there's no option to vote NO because it's only targeted at those who want one.

 

I am open to suggestions etc, please PM if you'll have any suggestions.

Hi MGR,

 

I like the idea that I could just glue it on and after painting it would look right, I don't have a layout at the moment but should I build one my collection of AC electrics would look a sight better than they do, if I were to fit catenary on the layout then I would set it just above the height of the pantograph and then there is no bother with it getting hooked up on anything.

I note that you are in Australia how would that work out with initial cost of the item and also postage costs?

 

Gibbo.

[MGR Hooper!]

So how is it held in place?

Refer to the post by Satan's Goldfish below yours...

 

PS: you'd still need some form of an adhesive even with pegs which I clearly mentioned will be on the final 3D print.

I'm going with 'superglue'.

Phew....! I am so glad that there's atleast one person who knows a little bit about modelling. LOL!

[MGR Hooper!]

Hi MGR,

 

I like the idea that I could just glue it on and after painting it would look right, I don't have a layout at the moment but should I build one my collection of AC electrics would look a sight better than they do, if I were to fit catenary on the layout then I would set it just above the height of the pantograph and then there is no bother with it getting hooked up on anything.

I note that you are in Australia how would that work out with initial cost of the item and also postage costs?

 

Gibbo.

Well for starters, it's a 3D printed pantograph and therefore cannot be adjusted post printing.

 

However I will, once uploaded to my shop offer the pantograph at various heights. I will also allow people to request custom heights if so be it.

 

In relation to the last part of your post, my country of residence actually won't matter. The pantograph kit will be (like all my other kits) 3D printed by Shapeways and sold from my shop hosted by Shapeways. If you reside in the UK, then you'll most likely get your 3D print done by Shapeways' Eidenhoven facility in The Netherlands.

 

I'll be finalizing the CAD shortly, just need to asjust the insulators to the dimensions provided by Gordon H.

[Gibbo675]

Well for starters, it's a 3D printed pantograph and therefore cannot be adjusted post printing.

 

However I will, once uploaded to my shop offer the pantograph at various heights. I will also allow people to request custom heights if so be it.

 

In relation to the last part of your post, my country of residence actually won't matter. The pantograph kit will be (like all my other kits) 3D printed by Shapeways and sold from my shop hosted by Shapeways. If you reside in the UK, then you'll most likely get your 3D print done by Shapeways' Eidenhoven facility in The Netherlands.

 

I'll be finalizing the CAD shortly, just need to asjust the insulators to the dimensions provided by Gordon H.

Thanks for the reply, I shall keep an eye out for developments and decide at what height I would like the pantographs to be.

 

Gibbo.

[Kelly]

3D printing is capable of having an adjustable/moveable part. But obviously that increases the costs.

 

They look nice though.

[MGR Hooper!]

Thanks for the reply, I shall keep an eye out for developments and decide at what height I would like the pantographs to be.

 

Gibbo.

Once it's up, you can always tell me the height you require i.e. insulator base to the wire. And I can do it. However I suggest having the pantograph head/shoe 1mm lower than the wire so that there's no risk of snapping or getting tangled up.

[MGR Hooper!]

3D printing is capable of having an adjustable/moveable part. But obviously that increases the costs.

 

They look nice though.

Yes 3D prints can, but in this case no. FUD in this scale is more for the finesse rather than functionality and robustness.

 

You cannot 3D print a OO gauge functional pantograph from a material like FUD and expect it to work.

 

It's not really about cost, but rather the quality of the material. The same pantograph can be made functional in O gauge.

 

FUD is too brittle, to be able to move constantly. When I designed the Brecknell-Willis pantograph, the upper arm and lower arm are actually joined by what I heard someone dimple and pimple (ball and socket) joint. It clipped in well and as intended to, but after only a couple of tries it lost it's grip because FUD is too brittle.

3D printing is capable of having an adjustable/moveable part. But obviously that increases the costs.

 

They look nice though.

Yes 3D prints can, but in this case no. FUD in this scale is more for the finesse rather than functionality and robustness.

 

You cannot 3D print a OO gauge functional pantograph from a material like FUD and expect it to work.

 

It's not really about cost, but rather the quality of the material. The same pantograph can be made functional in O gauge.

 

FUD is too brittle, to be able to move constantly. When I designed the Brecknell-Willis pantograph, the upper arm and lower arm are actually joined by what I heard someone dimple and pimple (ball and socket) joint. It clipped in well and as intended to, but after only a couple of tries it lost it's grip because FUD is too brittle.

[Gibbo675]

Once it's up, you can always tell me the height you require i.e. insulator base to the wire. And I can do it. However I suggest having the pantograph head/shoe 1mm lower than the wire so that there's no risk of snapping or getting tangled up.

Good thinking Batman!  That is just what I had in mind, I don't think anyone except for those rivet counting types would object.

[298]

Refer to the post by Satan's Goldfish below yours...

PS: you'd still need some form of an adhesive even with pegs which I clearly mentioned will be on the final 3D print.

 

Phew....! I am so glad that there's atleast one person who knows a little bit about modelling. LOL!

Whether metal or not, a plug in pantograph will easily detatch from a loco should the pan snag any wires or other obstruction, otherwise there is the risk of breaking it or damaging a large section of overhead. There are quite some forces involved with a long express train travelling at a scale 100 mph. All of my 25+ AC electrics are so equipped regardless of the pan type, and the method is also suitable for conducting electricity should you be using live overhead.

 

Now I must get back to counting rivets and considering exactly how little I know about overhead modelling....

[MGR Hooper!]

Whether metal or not, a plug in pantograph will easily detatch from a loco should the pan snag any wires or other obstruction, otherwise there is the risk of breaking it or damaging a large section of overhead. There are quite some forces involved with a long express train travelling at a scale 100 mph. All of my 25+ AC electrics are so equipped regardless of the pan type, and the method is also suitable for conducting electricity should you be using live overhead.

Now I must get back to counting rivets and considering exactly how little I know about overhead modelling....

A 3D printed pantograph is going to face the same amount of damage whether it is glued in or fixed in place with pegs. Because a material like FUD is as I said meant for finesse and not to be robust. The usual weak points will make a pantograph crumble and not pegs nor glue are going to help it deteriorate lesser.

[298]

A 3D printed pantograph is going to face the same amount of damage whether it is glued in or fixed in place with pegs. Because a material like FUD is as I said meant for finesse and not to be robust. The usual weak points will make a pantograph crumble and not pegs nor glue are going to help it deteriorate lesser.

If that's the case then I'm struggling to see how such an item will pass a "reasonable test of durability" which no doubt you've done- don't forget it needs to be printed and delivered even before it is fitted to a loco. And then it will endure being taken on or off a layout for storage and wheel cleaning, and the occasional bystander saying "that's a nice photograph" as they try to push it's head down.

[MGR Hooper!]

If that's the case then I'm struggling to see how such an item will pass a "reasonable test of durability" which no doubt you've done- don't forget it needs to be printed and delivered even before it is fitted to a loco. And then it will endure being taken on or off a layout for storage and wheel cleaning, and the occasional bystander saying "that's a nice photograph" as they try to push it's head down.

And yet my Breknell-Willis pantograph has sold way better than I anticipated. My 3D printed pantograph will have the same amount strength as the typical plastic pantograph. It's a delicate fine product available for those who want to buy it.

 

At the end of the day, all of us buy models that are infact extremely fragile. It's upto the owners to handle with care. I will offer my product for sale. I will have an honest description and I will have clear warnings. I take the liberty to also message each and every customer post-purchase with something about the product and any warnings if need be.

[MGR Hooper!]

The insulators and pantograph has has now been adjusted to match that of the Hornby pantograph base so that it simply slots in. I will post images later today when I get on rmweb via the computer.

 

For those of you who want custom heights and/or a height suitable for the Peco/Dapol OHE, please drop me a PM with the correct dimensions from roof to the wire (-1.0mm).

Thanks specially to Gordon H for pointing out errors and helping with dimensions. Really appreciate it.

Regards.