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AVS1998

Pullmans for Blackstone (And Eventually Hastings!)

Pullman History Video Series by Yours Truly.  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you watch a video series, on my YouTube, linked here, on Pullmans and related cars, including their history, construction and operations?

    • Yes!
      21
    • Hmm... No.
      2
    • Maybe. Depends what you'd talk about, I suppose.
      8
  2. 2. Okay... Well, what areas would you prefer I look at first?

    • The cars you're modelling, of course! Only makes sense.
      18
    • Cars currently under restoration.
      10
    • Cars not produced RTR (LBSC, SECR, Caledonian, Maid of Morven, etc)
      20
    • The liveries! They certainly jumped around a lot, from what I've seen.
      15
    • Company history.
      10
    • Standards! Can't be Pullman without Pullman Standards. And I expect to see uniform too, Missy!
      10
    • Quirky, unique cars- like those for the Hastings line, or Maid of Morven, or... Oh, well anything goes!
      17
    • What about something completely different? Say... The SECR Gilberts...? Not always Pullmans, but they're the same thing... aren't they?
      11
    • The Decline and Fall of Pullman? Far more tragic than Evelyn Waugh's tale, I imagine.
      8
  3. 3. Which cars in particular would you like to see (I'll group these loosely)?

    • Clerestory (Pre 1908).
      14
    • 12 wheel (LBSC, 1908-)
      18
    • 12 wheel (all others).
      15
    • 'Oddities'.
      16
    • Standard 'K' (Wood)
      9
    • Standard 'K' (Steel)
      7
    • Pre 1910 variations.
      14
    • Post 1923 Pullmans.
      9
    • Observations.
      7
    • Really oldies!
      12
  4. 4. As for operations, any specific companies you'd like to see discussed?

    • LBSCR
      18
    • SECR
      15
    • LSWR
      13
    • Midland
      6
    • GNR
      4
    • GER
      6
    • GWR
      6
    • SR
      13
    • Caledonian
      4
    • LNER
      7
    • Anything else I may have missed.
      6


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     Evening all! I figured that it only makes sense for me to create a proper workbench thread for my Pullman projects, and I can cross-post to my conventional workbench thread here.

 

     Welcome to Preston Pa- I mean, welcome to Alexandra's Pullman Playgr- no, that doesn't quite sound right either...

 

     ~ The Proposal~

 

     As all three constituents and then the Southern ran quite a large number of Pullman services, be it individual cars in trains or full Pullman-only rakes, it made sense to include at least a handful on Blackstone (Hastings in the very distant future), typically in either a Maunsell R1 set (Specifically set 467, suitably shortened), or Thanet/Continental stock. Blackstone did see some boat services, so it doesn't strain credulity to have a couple of examples of these coaches.

 

     There will be more SECR Pullmans than LBSC, purely as a result of the loading gauge- the SER reached Blackstone first- but there will be a line (somehow!) reaching the town, built by the LBSC, with a more generous L.G. that should allow for larger locomotives and cars. I won't run any Pullman-only sets, as I don't think the station warrants it.

 

     ~ The Cars ~

    

      Car No 34, 3rd Class: This car is a relatively simple conversion. Repaint the upper fascia board into cream, new transfers, floor-mounted Kadees, a white roof, and paper corridor connections. Shouldn't take too long, the worst part most likely will be sourcing (affordable) transfers.

 

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     Car No 3, Second Class (Princess Regent): This care is going to take a lot of work. Aha.

 

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     It began as a Roundhouse/Pullman Palace Car kit which I cut down in length to a scale 63'6'';  I am following a diagram from the June 1981 Model Railway Constructor magazine.  The underframe was built as intended, though the queen-posts had to be brought inboard, and the bogie mounts moved slightly, too, to match a 41' bogie centre.

 

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     The roof needs some more sanding, possibly a little more filling. Car ends need either new windows cutting in, or the old ones filling and justifying somehow (''it's reaching the end of its service life, let's just block up the end windows, lads!'). Body sides... Well, I'm still scared of etching, so I think I'll get in touch with Worsley Works and see if they can't do the etch for me. Underframe requires some equipment, bogies are still on pre-order. The interior will be done once the bodywork is finished, and I imagine I'll finish it in either green or blue. Clerestory cars often were dual-lighted (gas and electric) and so I will fit a small strip of LEDs in a warm white in the clerestory itself, and have illuminated tables. The clerestory will also make use of the green glazing included with the source kit. As above, old-standard livery, white roof (possibly with slightly heavier weathering than the other cars), floor-mounded Kadees, paper corridor connections. Also required are (very) large LBSC-pattern buffers; I'm still looking for a source of these. This is a long-term project, certainly.

 

     Monaco, First Class: This shouldn't take long at all. Repaint the upper fascia board into cream, new transfers, floor-mounted Kadees, a white roof, and paper corridor connections. Piece of cake.

 

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     Amelia Anne, First Class Brake: This car is halfway to being finished. The roof details need replacing (dyspraxia got in the way of aligning the vents!) and it will eventually be sprayed white. Match board paneling also needs fitting, though this is quite a challenge to cut straight, so I'm on the hunt around the house for the guillotine... Once these are fitted, the car will be sprayed into Madder Lake, and I may attempt the gold lining myself with a bow pen (Railway Gods give me strength.) Floor-mounted Kadee on the 'inside' end, the other will receive a Dingham loop for automatic coupling. New buffers are required; I think I may use the Keen examples for this... Possibly. Otherwise it'll be white-metal examples, which I have in stock. Glazing will have the window-frames directly penned on. Illuminated seating will be fitted, sourced from a scrapped Pullman project. The lighting requires a little work but it shouldn't be too bad. Corridor connection for the inside end, again. Etched brass doors are also to be fitted.

 

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Edited by AVS1998
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     Here's a poll for a potential video series; I look forward to the answers!

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     I have, I'll have another look for my consideration. The only issue I'd have using them is I don't know off-hand whose Pullman cream theirs matches, as it doesn't look to be Humbrol/Hornby...

 

     However, I've noticed today the cream panels on Car No 34 are a bit scuffed anyway, so it might pay off to order the transfers anyway and just re-model the vehicle slightly. Maybe. I'll make up my mind later. I did ask the proprietor if he'd consider making them ('Old Standard') transfers to match Humbrol/Hornby, and he said he'd consider it... My luck may hold out, yet.

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Probably best to avoid page 150 of LB&SCR Modellers' Digest 7, if you do not wish to be led astray by a kit for a Pullman car...……

Best wishes 

Eric

 

Gorgeous! I followed the construction thread on here, funnily enough. Sadly they're far too early for my purposes, but still a great looking kit.

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     Evening all,

 

     Blimey, fourteen responses to my poll! I'm genuinely surprised to have received so many- thank you to everyone whose voted so far. I'll wait until I have twenty responses, I think, before I start planning any videos as I'd like to know for sure what people are interested in hearing about.

 

      Once I've had twenty full sets of votes, I'll post the results up and set about planning.

 

     Looks like some trips to preserved railways are rather aptly timed... And as though I may have to go rifling through all of my railway books again!

 

- Alex

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Ah, but there are no Pullmans on the Isle of Wight! ;) 

 

How will she ever cope!

 

But there are at the K&ESR...

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Ah, but there are no Pullmans on the Isle of Wight! ;)

 

How will she ever cope!

 

But there are at the K&ESR...

 

 

     Indeed, but only one 'proper' Pullman in service now, due to the recent vandalism of Theodora, leaving only the MK1 Kitchen Diana and Barbara running; I imagine the Maunsells used alongside the dining services will probably be drafted in until such a time as Theodora and Aries are both fit to operate.

 

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/tenterden/news/vandals-trash-historic-steam-train-185744/

 

     Isle of Wight Pullmans... Interesting thought..

Edited by AVS1998

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Had the IOW got Pullmans I'd imagine they would've probably been ex-LBSCR or ex-SECR, but there was no real need for them.

 

As for vandals...

 

I hope, for their sakes, they are not local to you...

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Had the IOW got Pullmans I'd imagine they would've probably been ex-LBSCR or ex-SECR, but there was no real need for them.

 

As for vandals...

 

I hope, for their sakes, they are not local to you...

 

     Definitely ex SECR- their loading gauge of 8'6'' and lack of duckets or clerestories would make adapting them far easier. The Pullmans on the LBSC, at least until the 1908 set, iirc, were getting on for 9' wide and 13' tall!

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     Afternoon all!

 

     I'm looking at my Pullmans today, thinking about how to approach a backdating of the livery, and I've ended up sending some emails to custom transfer companies (Railtec and Precision), asking to cost up new cream panels for between the windows, and for the fascia boards for the three 'Old Standard' cars, as well as names for Amelia Anne (I must decide how I'm spelling this at one point soon!) and the clerestory, which brings me to a second issue.

 

     If I stick to the notion of it being downrated to a second class Kitchen/Parlour, then it would become Car No 3, Second Class. However, this is a point of contention; this car number is given, by both Morel (1983, pp. 198) and Kidner (1987, pp. 18) to the 1918 rebuild of the 1875 Midland Pullman Parlour First Alexandra. How ironic. Morel, in his listing of the cars by schedule number (All Pullmans had a Schedule Number, used to keep track of them; much easier than going by name, in many ways), notes that there were five 1893 cars built, none of which were named Princess Regent. Hmm. Now, do I assume that Newman (1981, pp. 421) had an uncorrected spelling mistake, or, am I working on a phantom car?!

 

     It is mentioned in Newman that ''Little is known about this car, with no traceable 'in service date' or details or the line it ran on.'' But, we know it was rebuilt at Battersea Works, and Morel notes that a car was renamed in 1921 (the same year as our car), name of Prince Regent. How utterly, utterly confusing. I can't help but wonder if it was one of the cars that was cut down in height for use across the Southern network; it did happen, and if we follow Ford (2008, pp. 59-), this work was completed on a batch of cars in 1917; cars 5-8 were 'built', having their clerestories removed, fully-electric lighting fitted, with car no 6 being converted in 1946 into the Trianon Bar for the Golden Arrow, therafter the New Century Bar for Dover-Ostend, thence finally resuming its role as Trianon. Is it possible- logical, even- to presume that perhaps Princess Regent followed a similar path, but retaining its clerestory? Or am I being fantastical? Who knows- it would seem Pullman experts don't, at any rate!

 

    I suppose one option is to have a different name on either side, and just make sure that when running you can only see one a la '80s Thomas four-wheel carriages (oh yes, I know that trick, Ms Alcroft!). Or, I can just make up my mind (no Bucks Fizz please) for once, and plump for... Whichever takes my fancy. And once I've ordered those names, there ain't no coming back!

 

     These cream transfers I'll be ordering will be put over lightly-sprayed Railmatch cream, number 325, as I believe this matches the Precision labels reasonably well, if I do go for those, though I'll be sure to double-check what colours they do use before ordering.

 

    

     And yes, I know this is silly, buuuuut... I used my scale print-out, bluetacked to the N1 tender and set appropriately to 'on rail' height, to assess the height of the car against 34 and Monaco; she looks to be pretty darn good, although the bogies will need a LOT of packing (once the white metal ones arrive... If the order ever goes through. Pre-ordering. Such a pain.) to get the car to the right height. I'm going to shop around and see if I can't find anywhere that sells suitable footsteps, as the ones moulded to the chassis are perfect, exactly the right height and size (Pullman standard... naturally.) This assessment demonstrates the strangeness of the car, though, it's deceptively tall, I imagine inside it still is lofty but the clerestory makes it seem far bigger, but also smaller, than it really is. Remove the clerestory, and it'll be about a foot shorter!

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     That's all I have for now, don't forget to vote in my poll if you haven't already.

 

     Thanks,

 

     - Alex

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     'Allo 'allo 'allo!

 

     Good afternoon all, and a lovely afternoon it is, too. Frightfully hot, and I'm totally wiped out after seeing Bluelightning (Gary) and Skinnylinny (Linny) at the Isle of Wight Steam Railway yesterday. What a long day; train to Polegate for me at 6:25, an hour and half drive down to Portsmouth, and then all the way back again, finally getting home at 10:30 last night.

 

     But that's by-the-by! I have exciting news. Speaking to some friends about how to go about forming the clerestory's sides, and blanching at the thought of home etching, it occurred to me I could commission the sides in another format... And, thanks to Linny, I'll have some laser printed sides winging their way to me once I've paid for them, hopefully in time for the Burgess Hill show, where I'm helping with the Pullman Society. That should leave the car body ready to be put into primer, at the very least, and stood pretty on the stand. I'm tempted to buy the vestibule extreme ends from Worsley Works (who never got back to me re etching); the etches for that section from Grosvenor should suffice, and provide a position for the buffers to go.

 

      I was quoted rather high prices for transfers by both companies and so I think I'll possibly repaint Monaco in Lake after all; the cost of new lining and names makes more sense rather than trying to mask off specific areas of the car for cream. Car 34 will probably be done with Humbrol Pullman cream after all; just paint it into the fascia and new transfers applied.

 

     Right, enough of that- onto the Poll. I have twenty votes now, and so I would like to get on with relaying the results!  (I'll give the top three from each question).

 

Question one: Yes, by fifteen votes.

Question two: Cars not produced RTR (fifteen votes), the cars I'm modelling (thirteen votes), and quirky or unique vehicles (twelve votes).

Question three: Post 1908 twelve wheel LBSCR cars (thirteen votes), 'oddities' (twelve votes), and clerestory/twelve wheel/pre-1910/really old cars (all eleven votes!)

Question four: Company operations came in as being LBSCR (thirteen), SECR (twelve) and LSWR (eight).

 

     Of course, I may well look into other things on the list once I've worked out how I'd like to film these videos, researched and scripted them, and compiled resources more. I'd like to do them justice.

 

     Thank you to everyone who voted, I really appreciate it!

 

     And finally, if anyone has any knowledge of CIWL cars, specifically those dating post 1898 but pre 1921, could you please relay them here?

 

     Thank you very muchly!

 

- Alex

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     Evening all!

 

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dAcJZOHp4

 

     As some of you may have heard, I'd commissioned some Pullman laser sides from Linny for the clerestory Pullman project: here's the results! I think they look smashing, I'm really looking forward to fitting it all together properly. You may be able to see, I cut the vestibule ends off- I did this primarily because I found they just didn't look right, and they didn't match, either, as well as making fixing the body to the chassis awkward. So, I may resolve to purchase (when my finance comes in) a pair of Worsley Works LBSCR Pullman vestibule ends, and see if I can somehow figure out to fix all of this together to make a gorgeous, obscure car!

 

     As well as this development for Princess Regent, I have made progress on Amelia Anne today, purely for the purpose of bringing it along on Saturday when I help out on the Pullman Society's stand at Burgess Hill show. Maybe I'll see some of you there?

 

     All I've done is fit the (long-promised) replacement match board panelling to one side. Plastic card is hard to cut straight without a guillotine! I also found, not too long ago, a part of the lighting system I thought I'd lost so with any luck she'll be an illuminated vehicle, too! When I have some decent glue I'll refit the Comet doors, and probably leave it as-is for the show. People seem to love seeing things in-process rather than as a finished article.

 

- Alex

 

 

 

    

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     Evening all!

 

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dAcJZOHp4

 

     As some of you may have heard, I'd commissioned some Pullman laser sides from Linny for the clerestory Pullman project: here's the results! I think they look smashing, I'm really looking forward to fitting it all together properly. You may be able to see, I cut the vestibule ends off- I did this primarily because I found they just didn't look right, and they didn't match, either, as well as making fixing the body to the chassis awkward. So, I may resolve to purchase (when my finance comes in) a pair of Worsley Works LBSCR Pullman vestibule ends, and see if I can somehow figure out to fix all of this together to make a gorgeous, obscure car!

 

     As well as this development for Princess Regent, I have made progress on Amelia Anne today, purely for the purpose of bringing it along on Saturday when I help out on the Pullman Society's stand at Burgess Hill show. Maybe I'll see some of you there?

 

     All I've done is fit the (long-promised) replacement match board panelling to one side. Plastic card is hard to cut straight without a guillotine! I also found, not too long ago, a part of the lighting system I thought I'd lost so with any luck she'll be an illuminated vehicle, too! When I have some decent glue I'll refit the Comet doors, and probably leave it as-is for the show. People seem to love seeing things in-process rather than as a finished article.

 

- Alex

 

Wow! SkinnyLinny's sides are perfect. Gluing all the mouldings on straight must have been a challenge, though.

 

There should be hope for building the early SECR Pullmans using this method and an appropriate donor body.

 

Dana

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Thanks for the kind words, Dana. Gluing the mouldings on straight can be tricky, although in this case it's helped by the above- and below-window mouldings being linked by verticals. I usually glue just the centre in place, then carefully lay down either side while keeping it slightly taut, which helps keep it straight and use PVA to give plenty of time for adjustment. Once it's all in place I then press down with a book or similar which finalises the bond.

Edited by Skinnylinny
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     Good evening all!

 

     Just a small one today- Amelia Anne's lighting has now been wired in, tested, and looks fine, the overglow will be dealt with when the body is complete.

 

     And the white metal 257 Developments for Princess Regent are being assembled; I plan on soldering them properly, but for now they are glued together for assessment on the chassis. I was a tad confused as to how to deal with the mounting hole being off-centre, but then realised this works fine given I moved the fixing hole anyway in the chassis. With a boss and a shim of plastic card, the bogies should sit at the right height, clear the Kadees and the underframe wire. With any luck, lighting pick-ups should fit nicely to the bogies which obviously also add much-needed weight to the car.

 

     NOTE: I'll edit in a photo of the assembled bogies once the glue has set properly.

 

- Alex

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Edited by AVS1998
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What Mozzer did next?

 

     Whoops, thanks for that- 247 ;) I was in a rush to get dinner started!

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     Today I soldered up the bogies- soldering white metal is more difficult in terms of managing your time and getting the blasted thing to take to the solder than anything else, I found. Some small detail (tiny frame struts) melted instantly despite my in-and-out efforts, but these can be restored in wire anyway. I did find that the frames are still very loose overall, however, which makes me wonder whether a brass sub-frame would've worked better. I wouldn't be relying on bearings in the white metal which, even after drilled out, still don't seem to sit very well and because the Hornby wheel sets I was using are too long in the axle, are sloppy and have a tendency to fall out. Hmm. Something to consider.

 

     They sit at the right height, however, and clear the couplings. I'm a bit concerned about the bogies rocking, but again this could be fixed with a brass sub-frame.

 

     A bit of tidying up, detailing (I think I've got the Hornby bogies' brake assemblies somewhere) and a waft of paint will set them off finely. At least they add much-needed weight and stability to the vehicle- with weights in the chassis above the bogies, I don't imagine this car coming off anytime soon!

 

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Are you using a temperature controlled iron. White metal is so much easier to work with when you can keep the iron in longer because it is not as hot. Well worth the investment if you do not have one yet.

Also, the weight might make the coach stable, but beware carriages in the same train should weigh about the same otherwise is causes problems with derailing when shunting or going over point work. As modelers we know how I found that quirk out.

Richard

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     I'm not using a temp. controlled iron yet, I'm hoping to possibly buy one with my final year student loan, though. And yes, I appreciate the issues weight can introduce to rakes, but I imagine it shouldn't be too much of a problem as I am aiming to have all my rolling stock nicely weighted, and this will only run in a short rake, anyway.

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Are you using a temperature controlled iron. White metal is so much easier to work with when you can keep the iron in longer because it is not as hot. Well worth the investment if you do not have one yet.

Alternatively, you can get a low-temp iron, which is designed for soldering white metal using low-temp solder. This should be much cheaper than a temp-controlled one. Edited by Budgie

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I personally would opt for a temperature control iron if the budget allows.  The problem with low temperature irons is that with many they rely on a reduced applied voltage as control.  As soon as they contact a large lump of metal (which might be the bit of brass you are trying to solder your white metal casting to), the heat dissipates and they take an age to get back to a usable temperature - I know because I too bought a low temperature iron.

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