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New layout limited space (Signalling Help Required)


chuffinghell
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4 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The driver rod for the first turnout clamps to the underside of the rodding and attaches to the operating crank. Sorry I can't do a sketch as I'm using my tablet.

 

 

 

Is it something like this?....compensator

 

7BA30A96-9AD6-4DD8-839E-AFD9278F7B6D.jpeg

B05D7938-C51B-454F-940D-72496CBB2EC7.jpeg

Edited by chuffinghell
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  • RMweb Gold
4 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Don't get disheartened - you are ALWAYS going to get conflicting advice (or, perhaps put more diplomatically, advice ranging across a spectrum of options) if you ask questions on a forum.

 

I appreciate everyone’s advice and help, It’s more my lack of knowledge and understanding that gets me disheartened.

 

I do get easily confused and frustrated with conflicting advice but the frustration is with myself not those who are trying to help

 

Maybe I’m getting down because I’ll be 44 on Monday so my number of years will be higher than my IQ :laugh_mini:

 

It’ll be 30 years since my last layout and it’s taken that long to understand electrofrog point wiring :blush:

 

 

 

Edited by chuffinghell
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  • RMweb Gold

I’ve been playing around with a spare Y point

 

I’ve trimmed the sleepers with the slots in for motor mounting and cut down the tie bar

 

Is it worth doing this?....or would I be wasting my time

 

91F064C8-05FA-448C-B2CD-FCF71171352C.jpeg.3051763eca87382b77df157af3d1c534.jpeg

 

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I definitely suggest chopping off the PECO bits and extra nodules on them. Just reduce them to what looks closest to real track without chopping too close to essential moving parts.

 

EDIT: Ignore this advice for points in the FY.

Edited by Martin S-C
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21 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

I appreciate everyone’s advice and help, It’s more my lack of knowledge and understanding that gets me disheartened.

 

To which I will point out that we are all there at some point, not just in this hobby but everything in life when we are first learning something.

 

Those who are currently giving advice didn't suddenly wake up one morning with all that knowledge, it takes time and often perseverance.

 

 

21 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

Maybe I’m getting down because I’ll be 44 on Monday

 

Age doesn't really matter, what matters is that you are willing to learn something new and expand your knowledge.

 

Also worth noting that many studies appear to show that this sort of thing - keeping the brain active with either learning new stuff or otherwise stimulating it - has many health benefits as we get older.

 

To that end your willingness to come on here and ask questions / get help about a hobby that interests you puts you well ahead of a lot of people who lurk silently in the background.

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I found this sketch on the Brassmasters site, for how the point drive drops off the rodding run. The square rodding works as well for round rodding.

 

Cranks%20instructions.jpg

 

I have not yet been able to find a prototypical photo on line.

 

 

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Until I embarked on my current project I wasn't going to bother with point rodding at all (dummy or otherwise). Then I saw such wonderful photos by Kevin in his "Little Muddle" thread that I became sold on the idea of depicting rodding for the sense of completeness it imbued his pictures with.

The issue then became (following discovery of this product) one of "do I just bung some mostly correct dummy rods and links down so it looks good, or do I really want to make it actually WORK?"

I am currently thinking that in some limited places on my own (biggish) layout, some functioning point rodding would be "cool". Nothing more. Not essential or needed, just "cool".

 

The final question I am asking myself and which probably is popping up for you now, Chris, is "working point rodding - does it need to work COMPLETELY PROTOTYPICALLY?" In my case the answer is no. You need to form your own thoughts into a course of action over the subject but I would always bear in mind the question - "what is it I really want to achieve here?" and... most important.. "am I having fun?"

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47 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

The final question I am asking myself and which probably is popping up for you now, Chris, is "working point rodding - does it need to work COMPLETELY PROTOTYPICALLY?" In my case the answer is no. You need to form your own thoughts into a course of action over the subject but I would always bear in mind the question - "what is it I really want to achieve here?" and... most important.. "am I having fun?"

 

I wasn’t going to bother with signalling, soldering or electrofrog points either

 

@KNP‘s Little Muddle was also my inspiration for point rodding.....amongst other elements

 

I thought about working rods for a nanosecond but I’m happy with dummy ones especially as the wills kits look really rather good and of course better than non at all

 

But I agree that working rods would be cool

 

Trying to replicate a prototype and getting bogged down in the details kinda takes the fun out of the build for me, I’m happy with approximation and/or interpretation

 

I’ve been to the Churnet Valley Railway today, I couldn’t get close enough to see the rods but managed to snap these hand levers and a ground frame

 

particularly impressed with the shot of the ground frame as it was taken whilst we were in motion 

 

4811B6DE-DD4A-4B37-B115-D948995AA878.jpeg

0EBBD06A-2158-40E8-9AEC-829D5B3A1ED0.jpeg

 

Edited by chuffinghell
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  • RMweb Gold
11 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

 

Yes,  I did look at those,  but there's not a shot of a crossover drop off in amongst there. I have seen one somewhere on the web.

 

 

 

I found this but I have no idea if it’s right

CF2E60E9-E6B0-4129-AF61-B213CC7965F6.jpeg

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12 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

 

Yes,  I did look at those,  but there's not a shot of a crossover drop off in amongst there. I have seen one somewhere on the web.

 

 

 

Or is this this more like it?

4-0.jpg

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  • RMweb Gold
On 17/05/2019 at 15:12, Harlequin said:

This is how I would do it:

image.png.d31b65a3ea01a9e54c9c1ae5ec5532a1.png

Loco release crossover operated from one lever in the 'box, as per Martin. (Both crossovers one lever each, actually.)

Ground disc signalling the release crossover route.

Ground disc for exit from loop / goods, rather than a signal.

Hand point levers as per Zomboid.

Signal cable runs shown in orange.

 

 

@Harlequin is this correct?

 

Also would the rods curve gently as drawn or would there be two straight lengths joined by a crank? 

point rodding 5.PNG

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3 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

 

@Harlequin is this correct?

 

Also would the rods curve gently as drawn or would there be two straight lengths joined by a crank? 

point rodding 5.PNG

 

Hi Chris, I don't know! This is beyond the limits of my knowledge, but:

I think the rodding would curve along length C in the real world (where it would be longer).

I wonder if compensation would be used for such a short distance? (The crossover in your earlier drawing was 108 yards long, so maybe an unrealistic example for demo purposes.)

I think compensation would be in the run from the 'box to the first crank arm.

 

P.S. Your last photo of a take-off / drop-off crank doesn't look very GWR to me.

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3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Hi Chris, I don't know! This is beyond the limits of my knowledge, but:

I think the rodding would curve along length C in the real world (where it would be longer).

I wonder if compensation would be used for such a short distance? (The crossover in your earlier drawing was 108 yards long, so maybe an unrealistic example for demo purposes.)

I think compensation would be in the run from the 'box to the first crank arm.

 

P.S. Your last photo of a take-off / drop-off crank doesn't look very GWR to me.

 

The curve radius scales to approx 148 yards over a scale length of approx 16 yards (if I've done the maths correctly)

 

As far as the compensation goes I assumed this would be used in order to change the direction as well as temperature control (oops)

 

I imagine having the cranks at each point oppositely handed with one pushing and one pulling would suffice 

 

I'm struggling to find a GWR style take-off crank.........it might have to be a Great Warren Railway design :lol: 

crossover rodding.PNG

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4 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

 

I found this but I have no idea if it’s right

CF2E60E9-E6B0-4129-AF61-B213CC7965F6.jpeg

 

 

That's part of the operating system for the fouling bar, the detection part of a facing point lock. These are available from Ambis Engineering and sold by Hobby Holidays, I  think they're at Railex this weekend.

 

 

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Would ground signals be connected to the points or operated independently via the signal box?

 

I'm only asking because I've found a photo which apparently shows both a rod and an cable, I wondered if someone could explain (in layman terms)

groundsignals.JPG

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23 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

Would ground signals be connected to the points or operated independently via the signal box?

Independently, but the ground disc could only be pulled off when the points were set correctly. This would most likely be implemented by a plunger in the disc mechanism that hits a bar connected to the tie bar. When the points are "lying normal" the bar would prevent the plunger from moving. When set to crossover, the plunger would align with a slot in the bar and so the signal could move to the correct position.

 

groundsig19.jpg

 

Image from gwr.org.uk.

The chain from the balance arm runs around the pulley and connects to the signal wire. You can see the plunger also connected to the balance arm and the flat bar below it (slot not visible) with the adjustable connection to the points tie bar or stretcher bar.

Edited by Harlequin
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2 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

So much helpful information coming out of this thread. Images and notes going into my own points-and-signals library. A big thank you to everyone involved.

 

Possibly, but I think it's in the wrong thread.  I don't think we're helping Chuffingell by leading him and his simple 00 gauge Peco layout down a rabbit hole of the fine details of point and signal operating gear.  He's not building in P4 and a good impression rather than an exact representation should be what he's aiming for. Not only will that make life easier for him, but a consistent level of detail will always produce the most satisfying result.

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