Layout height - a different look at an old conundrum

[Chubber]

Well, having wanted a dedicated railway room all my life I now have one, and have had since December last year. At  only 10' x 7'-3", lit by a 1m x 1m Velux, Pendon need not worry about a challenge, but be blowed if I can find the courage to start!

Yes, you guessed it, deciding 'ideal height' was one of the excuses for prevaricating but I can chose 44", or maybe 42" to use it seated, possibly 48" or 50" standing because I am going to use this...

https://www.screwfix.com/p/rb-uk-twin-slot-uprights-white-1400-x-25mm-2-pack/56901

as the basis of my layout supports, to see which suits me best. I intend a 'proof of concept' single track circuit of the room which will allow me to test various means of supporting a semi-open frame and of making a lift-up section in front of the door which is at one corner of a short wall. I don't think it will work out any dearer than a timber floor mounted structure and will give a lot of free floor space, with room for a work bench, a OO9 plank on a lower set of brackets, an air-brush station  and some small wheeled bookshelves.

[if you fancy the idea I would recommend the Screwfix 'RB-UK' pattern as opposed to the slightly cheaper unbranded version available at Toolstation. I bought a little of this to try the idea and found they

a.  wouldn't reliably hang at 90 degrees in each slot, and

b.  after a week of supporting two bags of flour on the end of a 300mm bracket, a distinct droop developed.

c.  9mm ply fits nicely inside

 

The T.S. stuff is now in the garage. Tactus lignum, the RB product has performed much better.]

 

Below shows my ideas for attaching ply brackets and contours

 

 

Any further ideas or suggestions?

 

Doug

 

[tomparryharry]

Well, having wanted a dedicated railway room all my life I now have one, and have had since December last year. At  only 10' x 7'-3", lit by a 1m x 1m Velux, Pendon need not worry about a challenge, but be blowed if I can find the courage to start!

 

Yes, you guessed it, deciding 'ideal height' was one of the excuses for prevaricating but I can chose 44", or maybe 42" to use it seated, possibly 48" or 50" standing because I am going to use this...

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/rb-uk-twin-slot-uprights-white-1400-x-25mm-2-pack/56901

 

as the basis of my layout supports, to see which suits me best. I intend a 'proof of concept' single track circuit of the room which will allow me to test various means of supporting a semi-open frame and of making a lift-up section in front of the door which is at one corner of a short wall. I don't think it will work out any dearer than a timber floor mounted structure and will give a lot of free floor space, with room for a work bench, a OO9 plank on a lower set of brackets, an air-brush station  and some small wheeled bookshelves.

 

[if you fancy the idea I would recommend the Screwfix 'RB-UK' pattern as opposed to the slightly cheaper unbranded version available at Toolstation. I bought a little of this to try the idea and found they

a.  wouldn't reliably hang at 90 degrees in each slot, and

b.  after a week of supporting two bags of flour on the end of a 300mm bracket, a distinct droop developed.

c.  9mm ply fits nicely inside

 

The T.S. stuff is now in the garage. Tactus lignum, the RB product has performed much better.]

 

Below shows my ideas for attaching ply brackets and contours

 

bracket002.jpg

 

Any further ideas or suggestions?

 

Doug

I like the concept Doug, but I'd be afraid that one would give way, and bang goes your much cherished railway. However, extending your 9mm ply to accept an upright (to your choice) introduces some rigidity, and basically doubles the working weight betwixt wall and support.

 

I trying to get my own shed/railway room together, so this sort of idea creates great interest.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Doug, Don't be afraid of one "giving way". I used this stuff at my parents' house in France and we had a massive weight of books on it - probably ten times what any layout is going to weigh. So long as you use the right fixings into the wall, you should have no problems at all.

[Worsdell forever]

One problem you might find is getting a heavy baseboard off the wall, I have used these quite a lot over the years and they need to be lifted on and off accurately, they also get locked on with quite a bit of weigh. Individual brackets can be jiggled or even tapped with a hammer but two, say, 4' apart under a heavy layout might get stuck. Would it be better to just use them as a shelf with perhaps a bolt at the outer end to locate and secure traditional baseboards to them?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Three thoughts I would put forward for consideration.

 

Although it is a small enough room to 'go round' with a  spirit level to establish a horizontal datum for putting in the wall bars, it will be simpler with a laser level.

 

Any wall that isn't truly vertical will 'throw off' the carefully established horizontal datum.

 

To eliminate these two above, and the question of the weight making it difficult to lift a layout section out, a slightly more complex constructional scheme will allow adjustment and removal.

 

Instead of screwing the layout profiled piece of 9mm ply directly into the metal bracket:

 

Screw a piece of 9mm ply into the bracket, with a good upstand.

 

Then screw the layout profiled piece of ply to the ply upstand in the bracket. You can do all the levelling at this stage, and subsequently adjust if anything moves, sags or whatever.

[Harlequin]

Why not fix a horizontal board to the shelf support, using the holes in the bottom and then support the layout modules on that board?

 

You wouldn't then need to tap/drill through the support sideways, the board would be wide enough to support modules butting up to each other, so better support and no need for the diagonal joints, and the scenery profile would be independent from the support structure.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Harlequin

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Doug,

I use a similar system to your planned one. As has been pointed out, my boards rest on the metal shelves themselves and they actually needed a thin strip of about ½" timber running along the rear, to bring the front to back level and true. Also, you can see a thin piece of timber packing on the LHS bracket as, despite my best measurements, I still got the vertical wrong!

 

The boards facing the camera rest on vertical steel strips approx 6' tall that are screwed and rawlplugged to the wall every 12 inches or so but they do carry a lot of weight.

The bare bracket on the left of the camera now carries a thin timber strip to help these boards span nearly 4 feet across a window.

Hope this helps,

John.

[Izzy]

I've got several sets of shelves in two rooms using this type of shelf support, mostly for books but also for more general storage. They have proved to be much stronger than other supports used in the distant past - thinner aluminium ones - but they are used with solid plank shelves screwed to the brackets with a maximum depth of 12" and length of 4ft ( three uprights to support this length and the weight that could be imposed).

 

I do wonder whether some of the points raised re datum levels and vertical walls might cause a few problems when trying to go right around a room or having the baseboard 'shelves' too far out from the wall (more than 15/18") with the attendant risk of too much weight/pressure being applied at this outer edge for the brackets to absorb. Books etc are sometimes quite heavy but the weight is spread across the depth of the shelf from front to back. Most of these shelving systems rely on a good proportion of the imposed weight bearing down at the rear vertically on the wall uprights to prevent the fixings pulling out of the wall.

 

Izzy

[Chubber]

Thanks for the interest/replies to date, I don't think I said I would be spacing the uprights at 60mm centres, did I, or that the 9mm ply is a good friction fit inside the bracket prior to running in a self drilling and tapping screw with a nut driver? To be doubly sure, a 3" G cramp holds it perfectly tight for fixing with the screw/s.

 

 

Paul - "One problem you might find is getting a heavy baseboard off the wall...", Other than station boards and major structure boards, I hope to have an open type frame work so that I can gain access to covered track/tunnel sections without having to lift anything off. It might prove that screwing the trackbed to blocks that are glued and screwed to the 9mm uprights is the way to go, as per '34...B&D''s suggestion "Screw a piece of 9mm ply into the bracket, with a good upstand. Then screw the layout profiled piece of ply to the ply upstand in the bracket. You can do all the levelling at this stage, and subsequently adjust if anything moves, sags or whatever."

 

Izzy "Most of these shelving systems rely on a good proportion of the imposed weight bearing down at the rear vertically on the wall uprights to prevent the fixings pulling out of the wall." Very true. 8mm x 65mm screws in genuine Plasplug nylon fixings should do the job though, with 1M long uprights and the 'works' in the lower half the outward pull on the topmost screws should be minimal, and any additional lighting pelmet and backscene support shouldn't over stress matters either.

 

Harlequin "You wouldn't then need to tap/drill through the support sideways..." the self drilling and tapping screws go in in seconds using a nut driver in an electric drill driver, no drilling, no tapping, brilliant invention!

 

The problem of the cheapo brackets was a sloppy fit, the RB UK stuff needs a final tap with a hammer to seat it firmly, when the bracket hooks almost cut into the inside rear face of the uprights.

 

I'm no stranger to cantilever wall mounted boards, herewith a picture of my 13ft x 2ft supports for my old Bear's End layout made in 1/2" ply which included two 13ft boards scarfed from 8ft boards. I have dimensioned drawings and 'how to' photos for anyone interested.

 

 

 

All food for thought!

 

Doug

Edited July 2, 2018 by Chubber

[LBRJ]

I used Spur Shelving for years to just rest a few layouts on - highly reccomended.

Oh and I tested them by climbing up them- they are immensely strong if screwed to the wall right 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I used Spur Shelving for years to just rest a few layouts on - highly recommended.

Oh and I tested them by climbing up them- they are immensely strong if screwed to the wall right 

 And then the wall has to be up to it! Some years ago new acquaintances in a house of modern construction really 'went for it' with a wall mounted furniture/racking system and started to move the top of the internal (non structural) blockwork wall it was hung on, a horizontal crack opening on the other side of the wall about 18" below the ceiling. The applied forces will act...

[PAL]

Have you had a look at Iain Rice's 'Shelf Layouts for Model Railroads'? Written for the American market with Rice's prose weirdly Americanised, and over half of it devoted to American layout schemes. But as you'd expect from him, it's full of interesting ideas, and worth getting hold of. I'm particularly taken with his extension of his lightbox idea, with lights mounted above the layout on another set of brackets.

[DCB]

I used to have a layout at around 60" above floor level which worked well, the duck under was not exactly difficult to duck under and in any case it was removable with just one Din plug to remove and two metal rods.  It did sag though where bracketed from the wall, most of it was built on legs and had storage below it.

 

I also work on a lower layout in the sort of 40" range, entry is via a very thoroughly engineered lifting flap, and almost all the under baseboard area is cupboard space, sliding doors from floor to bottom edge of the baseboard.  I don't think I would go for cantilevering the baseboards unless the walls are structural walls, nice solid brick and even then I can guarantee I would find the mortar between bricks every time I tried to fix the brackets.    

 

I think 50" is probably a good height for me at 71" ish tall.  60" I have to stand on a box to work on it, 40" I get back ache.

[LBRJ]

 And then the wall has to be up to it! Some years ago new acquaintances in a house of modern construction really 'went for it' with a wall mounted furniture/racking system and started to move the top of the internal (non structural) blockwork wall it was hung on, a horizontal crack opening on the other side of the wall about 18" below the ceiling. The applied forces will act...

 

There is ya problem 

 

On layout height I think 48inches from the deck works best

Its just about my seated eye level and is not to low for standing up either

[long island jack]

I've used those Screwfix brackets for years, fixed with 2.5 x #10 screws never moved, they have held 3 exhibition layouts 12' x15-18" in size +a bottom shelf for all my rubbish(as seen in photo)

 

 

 

Ray

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Yes those types of brackets will hold a lot of weight. I have used them for both the books in my library and for holding several hundred dvd's and cd's( I really must stop buying them...... ). The only problem I ever had with them is getting them completely level all along the area you want supporting due to uneven plaster on the walls. Should not really complain as the house is over 300 years old. Sorted out by using spacers and a spirit level. I would suggest though that you do put supporting legs in the corners where the angle of your boards change and meet.