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Lowmac carrying a container in 1968


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I've found another image showing the Lowmac 'Conflat ISO' in use in Manchester docks on the MSC Railway, in 1970:

webmedia.php?irn=69681&reftable=ecatalog

Next challenge is to identify the containers on them!

 

This is also from 1970, view in the opposite direction and shows a variety of early Manchester Liners containers plus a few others:

webmedia.php?irn=69673&reftable=ecatalog

Perhaps straying a little off-topic, the Manchester Liners ships had their stores loaded by container too, into some special cells accessible from the crew accommodation. Here are some of the stores containers:

webmedia.php?irn=69675&reftable=ecatalog

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Since the links I posted a few days ago seem to have died entirely (I can't even get back to those pages myself now), here's a crop of the image showing at least three Conflat ISO wagons on 9 dock at Manchester in 1970. They all appear to be loaded with open-top containers, which are fairly unusual. Note also the traditional 5-plank wagon on the left - several early photos of the container terminal show odd open wagons among the containers - I'm not sure why.

conflat_ISO_9-dock_cropped.jpg

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Incidentally my little MSC intermodal train is definitely going to have at least two wagons, but maybe 3 or 4.

One wagon will be a BR 'Conflat ISO' and another will be an MSC internal container flat - a cut-down twin bolster.

I have desires for more than two containers; so I could either swap them or make more wagons.

 

The photo I have of an MSC flat in use shows a CTI ribbed container which I am going to model:

CTI_Manchester_1969-09-14.jpg.179392aad7760375b83e999886e6ca48.jpg

I also have a photo of two 'Conflat ISO' with 'Manchester Liners' smooth-sided containers which I will make one of - they're a classic.

container_flats_zoom.jpg.a616945688006e6fa1123e58162ad6e9.jpg

mlh130041.jpg.a4a74b840cc87fbff2475b16e7e1e924.jpg

Then, the photo in the previous post shows some open-top containers and if I can get hold of a better copy of the image (I'm trying...) then it would be interesting to model one of those as they were more common in the early days.

 

Finally, my name is Mol so how could I have a container train without a MOL container? These are OK for timescales (introduced late 1960s) but perhaps not geographically - but I can overlook that for the purposes of having one of my own containers on the train. This is probably the type I'd go for and Microscale do decals for them so the classic alligator is a relatively easy win:

molu2615291.jpg.d6c9319851856f713303eaa2baeecc35.jpg

 

Question: The smooth-sided containers (ML and MOL) are festooned with small rivets. In 7mm scale, these give me a dilemma. In smaller scales I'd ignore them as too small to represent. But if I try to include them on the model in 7mm scale I fear they would look too heavy. A possibility would be to use some of the finer Archer rivet decals which may be more subtle. My gut feel is that from typical model viewing distance, they would be invisible in reality and it's easier/better to neglect them. You have to look really closely at the two photos above to spot them. Any thoughts?

 

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The links above seem to have come back to life, happily. And here's another view I've found of the Conflat ISO wagons on 9 dock in 1970. Look above the small vessels toward the right hand side of the image:

webmedia.php?irn=69684&reftable=ecatalog

Another interesting view is this one on No8 Pier, also in 1970. This area was used for unloading containers from general cargo vessels, mostly acting as feeders to the main transatlantic service. The 4-wheel wagons visible under the crane here are the MSC Railway internal container flats, cut down from twin bolsters. They would take containers to/from factories in Trafford Park, or around to the main terminal on 9 dock.

craning-containers_1970.jpg

Here is a 1968 map showing the container faciliites at Manchester docks:

Manchester_Map.jpg.50225c3e3b74e9045481b40778a88672.jpg

And this 1979 photo nicely shows the main container terminal on 9 dock, and two MSC container wagons on the nearer 8 pier:

79-SALFORD%2520DOCKS-Container%2520Base-

 

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  • 5 months later...

Another photo from elsewhere on the site, this is linked from Chris Turnbull's photo thread, taken at Preston in 1967:

671228 Preston 48683.jpg

Two Conflat ISO are visible, though one is largely hidden behind a van. Both appear to be carrying containers with yellow sides and white ends, which I don't recognise.

 

Link to the thread here:

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On 25/08/2021 at 12:09, Mol_PMB said:

The links above seem to have come back to life, happily. And here's another view I've found of the Conflat ISO wagons on 9 dock in 1970. Look above the small vessels toward the right hand side of the image:

webmedia.php?irn=69684&reftable=ecatalog

Another interesting view is this one on No8 Pier, also in 1970. This area was used for unloading containers from general cargo vessels, mostly acting as feeders to the main transatlantic service. The 4-wheel wagons visible under the crane here are the MSC Railway internal container flats, cut down from twin bolsters. They would take containers to/from factories in Trafford Park, or around to the main terminal on 9 dock.

craning-containers_1970.jpg

Here is a 1968 map showing the container faciliites at Manchester docks:

Manchester_Map.jpg.50225c3e3b74e9045481b40778a88672.jpg

And this 1979 photo nicely shows the main container terminal on 9 dock, and two MSC container wagons on the nearer 8 pier:

79-SALFORD%2520DOCKS-Container%2520Base-

 

 

Now, that is a trackplan!

Your next project Mol?

 

Mike.

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29 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Now, that is a trackplan!

Your next project Mol?

 

Mike.

Funny you should say that! Though the whole of Manchester (Salford) Docks would take up a fair bit of space in 7mm scale...

 

I have a plan for another small layout (approx 6'x18" plus sector plate) which would fit in the same space as my current one, and be interchangeable.

It would be based on one of the two container terminals in Manchester, probably 9 dock, around 1969-70.

Some MSC diesels, and a variety of 4-wheel container flats including both Conflat ISO and internal MSC ones. Probably in the aftermath of a rainstorm like this:

'Tatiana Del Mar' loading containers in Manchester

A key feature would be that the backscene would be side of a ship, bright red, with 'MANCHESTER LINERS' in bold white letters almost the full length of the layout. Basically looking from the front you would get this view:

image.png.81a92d56a6e7482a9f416d661f9e05a6.png

I'd probably only model the legs of the crane, the rest would be out of sight above the layout!

9 Dock container terminal

Scenic breaks formed by stacks of containers:

The journey of MLF705466

 

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Many thanks, it's a good list, but photographic evidence suggests it is not a complete list because there are photos of several wagons with the ISO conversion that do not appear on David's list.

As well as including LMS, LNER and BR wagons, there were several different diagrams of wagon converted, with subtle differences in length, wheelbase, solebar depth etc.

 

 

 

Slow progress on mine here:
Conflat_ISOs.jpg.f2636bc45a212e0f9335db73762af37d.jpg

 

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  • 2 years later...

At the MIOG show today I picked up an old book '25 Years of Railway Research' by Colin Marsden.

Since I work in railway research and did spend part of my career in Kelvin House I thought it might be interesting for a couple of quid.

Well, what's the relevance to this thread? This:

image.png.c390e1197521612885a3ba4ab1deb782.png

 image.png.158cc2ee72f5043c747948d8d2ad09bb.png

 

If it wasn't published in a book and credited to BR, I'd think this an April Fool!

Note the roller blind displaying a 4B21 headcode, and parts of the leading end of the wagon picked out in a pale colour, possibly yellow?

I wonder what sort of propulsion was fitted?

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Wasn't that the famous Tomorrow's World fraud ? - where the 'Autowagon' was loose shunted and the film ( probably was film in those days ) was sped up as it decelerated so it looked like it really was under power.

Could well be - it does seem highly implausible!

Would be fun to model it though...

 

A quick google found some more images:

http://www.old-dalby.com/Autowagon.htm

https://features.rcts.org.uk/diesel-dilemmas/rtc-main-line-locomotives-1968-1978/d5901/

 

Edited by Mol_PMB
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1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

At the MIOG show today I picked up an old book '25 Years of Railway Research' by Colin Marsden.

Since I work in railway research and did spend part of my career in Kelvin House I thought it might be interesting for a couple of quid.

Well, what's the relevance to this thread? This:

image.png.c390e1197521612885a3ba4ab1deb782.png

 image.png.158cc2ee72f5043c747948d8d2ad09bb.png

 

If it wasn't published in a book and credited to BR, I'd think this an April Fool!

Note the roller blind displaying a 4B21 headcode, and parts of the leading end of the wagon picked out in a pale colour, possibly yellow?

I wonder what sort of propulsion was fitted?

 

 

I hope it had a paraffin lamp at the other end?

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On 23/03/2024 at 19:21, Mol_PMB said:

At the MIOG show today I picked up an old book '25 Years of Railway Research' by Colin Marsden.

Since I work in railway research and did spend part of my career in Kelvin House I thought it might be interesting for a couple of quid.

Well, what's the relevance to this thread? This:

image.png.c390e1197521612885a3ba4ab1deb782.png

 image.png.158cc2ee72f5043c747948d8d2ad09bb.png

 

If it wasn't published in a book and credited to BR, I'd think this an April Fool!

Note the roller blind displaying a 4B21 headcode, and parts of the leading end of the wagon picked out in a pale colour, possibly yellow?

I wonder what sort of propulsion was fitted?

 

 

Remembering back to coverage of it at the time I think it was very much an idea rather than getting anywhere near to any sort of reality.  I've a recollection that the idea was presented in a film of some kind but basically using what amounted to cartoon animation to show how it would work - complete with points changing as if by magic to suit the destination of the wagon.  I don't know if that film was from the project team who thought up the idea or some part of the media interpreting it to what they thought it would be like

 

I always tended to put it down as yet another of those wild ideas  (think EE Type 2/Class 20 with a velcro like coating  on the nose end) that emerged from the research folk at Derby in those days and I doubt that it ever really got beyond the 'bright idea' stage as it was a long way from addressing (or even thinking about?) most of the practicalities involved.

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Just now, The Stationmaster said:

Remembering back to coverage of it at the time I think it was very much an idea rather than getting anywhere near to any sort of reality.  I've a e

recollection that theh idea was presented in a film of some kind but basically using what amounted to cartoon animation to show how it would work - complete with points changing as if by magic to suit the destination of the wagon.  I don'yt know if that film was the project of the group who thought up the idea or some part of the media interpreting it to what they thought it would be like

 

I always tended to put it down as et another of those wild ideas that emerged from the research folk at Derby in those days and I doubt that it ever really got beyond the 'bright idea' stage as it was a long way from addressing (or even thinking about?) most of the practicalities involved.

Absolutely. I can't imagine that ASLEF would have been keen on the idea.

But in getting as far as a (falsifed) demonstration it was at least closer to reality than BR Research's work on flying saucers!

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6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I can't imagine that ANYONE would have been keen on the idea. ...... with all those wagons zipping about the network it would have been totally impossible to run any sort of passenger timetable - or would people all have their own autonomous vehicle too !

As I recall, the idea - which was only expressed in very broad outline - was to have the network used only for autonomous self-propelled freight wagons for a period in the early hours.

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