HELJAN UNVEILS ‘OO’ GAUGE 25/3 AND ‘ETHEL’ FOR 2019

[The Ghost of IKB]

1 hour ago, D1051 said:

 

Rivets ? You mean bolt heads . 

No i mean rivets as in pop rivets.

[adb968008]

I see rot on this rat but not rivets, screws nor bolts.. they must be well painted over 

Edited May 9, 2021 by adb968008

[25901]

If that's 057 I'll tell you when she heads north. 

 

But as for rivets, case closed 

Edited July 14, 2019 by 25901

[The Ghost of IKB]

Anyway, on the model they're pointed bits of plastic that dont belong there. Come on Ben, get rid of them before its too late.

[tinsley-toton]

Just read this reply on the FB page

T-T

[Daddyman]

7 hours ago, tinsley-toton said:

Just read this reply on the FB page

T-T

OK, that's encouraging, but can they use some of the spare plastic left over from the rivets to create some front window frames? 

[The Ghost of IKB]

Great news about the fake rivets!

 

[61661]

Dear All,

Apologies for the slow response on this but I wanted to see as much feedback as possible before making any comments. A few points I'd like to clarify to reassure people that this is a somewhat better depiction of a late body Class 25 than some of the comments here would lead us to believe.

1) It's a hand-decorated pre-production sample and therefore not representative of spec or decoration of the finished product. Some parts are poorly fitted and others are missing or damaged. 

2) As a pre-production model, its job is to help us identify any problems, faults and mistakes that can be rectified before manufacturing starts. More specifically, we had spotted the prominent rivet heads around the windscreens and have asked them to be removed so that they will not be present on production models. I'm aware that late changes haven't always happened with Heljan models in the past but we are endeavouring to respond more quickly and pro-actively now on issues like this. 

3) There will be a number of parts supplied as customer fit items which aren't necessarily visible in the photos. 

4) The OO model is based on work done for the O gauge Class 25 Version 2 which, as far as I'm aware, was very well received when it was released last year. Unless anyone can tell me different there wasn't anything like this kind of negativity around that model so I'm intrigued as to what is different.

5) Personally, I'm surprised at the response, given that we shared CADs and various photos of other pre-production samples over the last year (something that critics of all RTR model manufacturers always ask for is early input of this kind) and had very little in the way of negative comment at the time. Does the paint really make that much difference? 

6) Having had the models around the office for a few months, I believe it does capture the character of the prototype well (and we've had more messages in favour than against) but perhaps the super close-up photos and angles used don't do it any favours. However, I fully appreciate that this is a subjective view, as are those posted here, and everyone should be free to make their own mind up about it when the models are released. 

Long experience tells me that issues relating to D&E models can often get extremely heated about very small features, sometimes losing sight of the overall quality and detail of a product. On the flip side of that, I am constantly impressed by the level of knowledge and eye for detail shown by many modellers in this area and appreciate the detailed feedback. Without wishing to sound like a politician (heaven forbid!), I'm confident that it will impress the vast majority of potential customers when it is released.

 

Thanks again and best regards to all. 

 

Ben

[Porcy Mane]

Has there been negativity? I'd say more constructive criticism.

 

Taking into account scale compromises, it's those smaller details that sometime take just as much effort to get wrong than right that add to the overall picture and impression that a model gives. It's the correct smaller details that lift a model from being an average representation to eye-popping.

 

Also I haven't seen much heated argument on this thread.

 

Good to see a response from the horse's mouth.

 

P

[Phil Parker]

25 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

Has there been negativity? I'd say more constructive criticism.

 

*Cough*

 

On 11/07/2019 at 16:03, Legend said:

These Rivets round the cab windows are a bit severe , you can hardly see them, if at all , on the real thing . That would certainly put me off buying.

 

On 12/07/2019 at 13:27, iak said:

Oh dear me... This beastie is a wee disappointing, which is a shame...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iak]

Gesundheit...

One can only express a view on what you see, if that is interpreted as negative then fine. I would rather be honest as opposed to a sheep, so to speak.

Therefore let's wait for further developments having seen what Ben Jones has posted.

Wibble! 

 

[stovepipe]

I just want to comment in general on point 5 of Ben's reply, rather than specifically on the 25/3. When the CADs were shared there was a request for more representative angles. It is quite difficult to give good feedback from an angle you wouldn't normally see the real thing. It would be preferable going forward if normal viewing angles and front and side elevations could be shared, to gain more relevant comments.

 

 

[Legend]

Quite agree with iak

 

Thanks to Ben for posting what I thought was a very honest resume on where they are with the model.  Great that the rivets or counter sunk screws are being dealt with . Isn't that the type of feedback that's wanted ? Had it stayed in that condition I wouldn't have bought it , that's what I fairly stated and its now resolved.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Legend

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Apologies for the slow response on this but I wanted to see as much feedback as possible before making any comments. A few points I'd like to clarify to reassure people that this is a somewhat better depiction of a late body Class 25 than some of the comments here would lead us to believe.

1) It's a hand-decorated pre-production sample and therefore not representative of spec or decoration of the finished product. Some parts are poorly fitted and others are missing or damaged. 

2) As a pre-production model, its job is to help us identify any problems, faults and mistakes that can be rectified before manufacturing starts. More specifically, we had spotted the prominent rivet heads around the windscreens and have asked them to be removed so that they will not be present on production models. I'm aware that late changes haven't always happened with Heljan models in the past but we are endeavouring to respond more quickly and pro-actively now on issues like this. 

3) There will be a number of parts supplied as customer fit items which aren't necessarily visible in the photos. 

4) The OO model is based on work done for the O gauge Class 25 Version 2 which, as far as I'm aware, was very well received when it was released last year. Unless anyone can tell me different there wasn't anything like this kind of negativity around that model so I'm intrigued as to what is different.

5) Personally, I'm surprised at the response, given that we shared CADs and various photos of other pre-production samples over the last year (something that critics of all RTR model manufacturers always ask for is early input of this kind) and had very little in the way of negative comment at the time. Does the paint really make that much difference? 

6) Having had the models around the office for a few months, I believe it does capture the character of the prototype well (and we've had more messages in favour than against) but perhaps the super close-up photos and angles used don't do it any favours. However, I fully appreciate that this is a subjective view, as are those posted here, and everyone should be free to make their own mind up about it when the models are released. 

Long experience tells me that issues relating to D&E models can often get extremely heated about very small features, sometimes losing sight of the overall quality and detail of a product. On the flip side of that, I am constantly impressed by the level of knowledge and eye for detail shown by many modellers in this area and appreciate the detailed feedback. Without wishing to sound like a politician (heaven forbid!), I'm confident that it will impress the vast majority of potential customers when it is released.

 

Thanks again and best regards to all. 

 

Ben

 

Thanks for your feedback Ben.

 

I don't think that what you are seeing is, in the main, negatively - rather one of two things:

1) Predominantly a desire to help you get it right

2) A slightly cynical audience given past statements that on seeing EPs / livery samples with errors that corrections would be made, only for production models to show these same issues. This is in no way limited to Heljan, and probably other manufacturers have been more guilty.

 

For my part, as soon as I saw the EP some time ago, something around the doors looked off. I made the comments noting that it is up to Heljan to decide whether they want to correct it, or not. I have an ETHEL on order and it will not affect that one way or the other, although I would like obviously like any errors to be corrected.

 

I believe that the majority of us are pleased to see you in your role at Heljan, and hope that you will have influence to correct things and get models to the British market that are as good as they can be within your allocated budget. However, until a few models have hit the stores I am sure some people will have doubts. What you have announced is fantastic and has the potential to really take on the likes of Bachmann, taking Heljan to the top of the table - I for one hope you succeed.

 

Roy

[dj_crisp]

I'm reading this and not seeing a great amount of negativity and think this is a good model. With a few tweaks mentioned here this could be great and isn't that the point of a test press so to speak?

 

I don't think modellers in general will comment on the bits that are spot on as there's no need to change them.  I always look for things that can be improved so that's hopefully how the feedback has been taken.

 

After all there isn't a single model I've built that can't be improved and done better imo!

 

And it was good to see an example painted. .. after all unpainted in black I hadn't noticed the rivets

 

Keep up the good work!

Will

[YesTor]

9 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

Taking into account scale compromises, it's those smaller details that sometime take just as much effort to get wrong than right that add to the overall picture and impression that a model gives. It's the correct smaller details that lift a model from being an average representation to eye-popping.

 

^   The above  x 10

[Ian J.]

Thank you, Ben, for your response. I do hope that the comments here are not seen too negatively. I don't think any are particularly bad, and most are constructive in the hope of improving the model before its final release.

[Ajax]

Ben, will the upward slope of the outer windscreens be corrected?

 

This and the thick corner pillars are the most obvious errors that need correcting prior to production 

 

TIA

[blueeighties]

On 13/07/2019 at 16:19, Clive Mortimore said:

Someone earlier had quoted what size screws, so I remain confused.

 

But one thing for certain in BR service they were not visible. Unlike the body side support strut that is visible through the radiator intake grille. Cannot be seen on the etched grille but it is etched so that makes all the difference.

 

It looks wrong in many ways, all I hope it is sorted so I would be willing to part with my money....and not repaint my second hand DJH kit (purchased in this livery).

 

 

Clive I'm sorry, but arguing about rivets and such like on a new pre production model whilst posting images of that trio of class 25s is a tad contradictory in my opinion!

[blueeighties]

And regarding the debate about BR blue, I thought I would post this image. 2 7mm kit built locos, along with the much discussed so called 'light blue' pre production 25. All painted by 3 different resprayers, all 3 locos exactly the same shade. Surely we can't all be wrong!?

[GordonC]

18 minutes ago, blueeighties said:

And regarding the debate about BR blue, I thought I would post this image. 2 7mm kit built locos, along with the much discussed so called 'light blue' pre production 25. All painted by 3 different resprayers, all 3 locos exactly the same shade. Surely we can't all be wrong!?

 

Dont worry, I must confess that I thought the blue looked surprisingly light in the pictures .... but I was also confident that with the knowledge you'd painted it that you would have used the correct shade from a reliable supplier so any oddity must've been lighting conditions or something else.

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

29 minutes ago, blueeighties said:

Clive I'm sorry, but arguing about rivets and such like on a new pre production model whilst posting images of that trio of class 25s is a tad contradictory in my opinion!

Some of my comments about the pre-production model have related to

 

The front of the cab looking too flat. All three older models, the DJH, Bachy and Hornby conversion look better.

The cab side windows and cab door window not lining up. The three older models are still better in that respect.

The lack of a visible structural member showing through the mesh of the radiator intake grille. Not present on the etched (it is etched so must be better) grille. Hornby and Bachmann managed this in the plastic moulding, DJH managed it in their etching of the body.  

 

Do we step backwards or forwards with each new model?

 

I will repeat what I wrote as you didn't seem to understand the message. "It looks wrong in many ways, all I hope it is sorted so I would be willing to part with my money....and not repaint my second hand DJH kit (purchased in this livery)."

 

I must be wrong I have only been modelling diesels since 1980.

[blueeighties]

I must be wrong I have only been modelling diesels since 1980.

 

Show me a scratch build, perfectly proportioned, perfectly detailed, every rivet correct model, and then hats off to you sir 

[blueeighties]

"The lack of a visible structural member showing through the mesh of the radiator intake grille. Not present on the etched (it is etched so must be better) grille. Hornby and Bachmann managed this in the plastic moulding, DJH managed it in their etching of the body"

 

You have my apologies on that one, it is present, but I didn't pick it out in the correct black/whatever darker colour. Hopefully that's one less worry for you to lose sleep over.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by blueeighties
typo

[russ p]

What are those balls on the doorsteps?