61661 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 25 minutes ago, The Ghost of IKB said: I think its unlikely that these are the only two rogue examples. Theres lots of things that can be said about olivias, but i think its not feasible that they picked the only 2 bad ones out of their allocation and chose to put them on the web site. Heljan have been screwed over by the factory and should pull them (the weathered locos) out of the market before their reputation is damaged too much. I agree that these are unlikely to be the only examples not up to scratch - it's important to wait until we find out the full extent of the problem, rather than speculating. Like any busy retailer, Olivia's doesn't have time to indulge in picking out examples to suit any agendas - the first one out of the carton gets plonked in front of a camera and then they move on to the next of many jobs. This is not an Olivia's issue - it's an issue for us to take up with our supplier and resolve asap. Hence why I said earlier that if anyone receives one that they are not happy with, it should be returned for exchange/refund. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said: There no suggestion or implication that there is misrepresentation in the post.Nor was it intended.But in that state would not the better course of action have been to have withdrawn the model and any similar and contacted Heljan via Ben. He presumably expects to receive income from sale of such . Yet on display is a product which appears not fit for purpose. Curious. 1 hour ago, lyneux said: So just exactly how do you specify what a good weathering job looks like in words? It's so subjective. I'm sure the weathered sample they signed off probably looked superb. But it's really hard to say what is good and what is bad using words alone. Words are what contracts are written with unfortunately. Visible brush strokes though... that's terrible. I do feel sorry for them but surely this is the factory's fault not Olivia's? Guy Weathering is a subjective issue, and although something has gone awry here it affects two specific examples rather than the whole batch of models. Given that a clear returns policy has been set out I would hope that we are able to evaluate this model beyond this specific issue once we can see/handle examples. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 31 minutes ago, andyman7 said: Weathering is a subjective issue, and although something has gone awry here it affects two specific examples rather than the whole batch of models. Given that a clear returns policy has been set out I would hope that we are able to evaluate this model beyond this specific issue once we can see/handle examples. Whilst I agree that more information is needed as to the depth of problem, the two specific models that we are discussing does represent 100% of the weathered ones that we, the general public, have so far seen. I hope for Heljan's sake, and even more so for Ben, that it is not a large % of the weathered models that are so affected. Time will tell... As for the quality of the 25 in general, that is another matter and we can judge models whether weathered or not. Roy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, lyneux said: So just exactly how do you specify what a good weathering job looks like in words? It's so subjective. I'm sure the weathered sample they signed off probably looked superb. But it's really hard to say what is good and what is bad using words alone. Words are what contracts are written with unfortunately. Visible brush strokes though... that's terrible. Unlikely to be the same factories used by Heljan, but the weathering on the Kernow MRC limited editions of the Dapol Western and Class 22 was superb and as far as we know consistent across the whole batch. of course we don't know how the numbers produced compare with these "standard" Heljan production runs, but very factory worth its salt should be capable of producing consistently weathered models over the whole production run, irrespective of size, based on an approved pre-production sample as in the case of these 25s. It's not the first time part of a production run has gone wrong - remember a significant number of the Hornby GWR 5011 Tintagel Castle arrived with a smokebox numberplate because the factory fitted the wrong version of the smokebox door. It's not our business what has gone wrong with the weathered 25s, just that Heljan/Ben has acknowledged the error and confirmed we can return the model if we don't like it. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 On an optimistic note go to Kernow’s latest newsletter for some really nice images of this model. But not,I must add,of the weathered version which is showing as not in stock . Worth a look. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) It looks like the boiler vent blanking plates are omitted. This was a bit of a minefield on the real thing but by the 70s/80s they were normally blanked off or (for those that went through Derby overhauls) sheeted over. Edited March 5, 2021 by andyman7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 minute ago, andyman7 said: It looks like the boiler vent blanking plates are omitted. This was a bit of a minefield on the real thing but by the 70s/80s they were normally blanked off or (for those that went through Derby overhauls) sheeted over. Grills didn’t get removed, they placed the plate on top of the grill. The ones that had the grill completely removed were part of a bodywork program that included new roof panels which was stopped in the end 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, andyman7 said: It looks like the boiler vent blanking plates are omitted. This was a bit of a minefield on the real thing but by the 70s/80s they were normally blanked off or (for those that went through Derby overhauls) sheeted over. Blanking plates are supposed to be in the details bag. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, 25901 said: Grills didn’t get removed, they placed the plate on top of the grill. The ones that had the grill completely removed were part of a bodywork program that included new roof panels which was stopped in the end As mentioned many times before, they are included separately in the detailing pack. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, andyman7 said: It looks like the boiler vent blanking plates are omitted. This was a bit of a minefield on the real thing but by the 70s/80s they were normally blanked off or (for those that went through Derby overhauls) sheeted over. Having spent time swapping boiler grilles and blanking plates on Bachmann models and making side step covers from 10thou plasticard, I confess to bring somewhat perplexed to see both features exposed on all Heljan's versions. Knowing where to look for images of 25093, 25155 & 25252 OTTOMH, I've just checked and both features on all three should be blanked off..........are these parts supplied in the bits bag by any chance, much like such roof parts for the Class 26/27s? OK guys, you beat me to it!! Step covers also? Edited March 5, 2021 by Neil Phillips Crossed wires! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallaig1983 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, Neil Phillips said: Having spent time swapping boiler grilles and blanking plates on Bachmann models and making side step covers from 10thou plasticard, I confess to bring somewhat perplexed to see both features exposed on all Heljan's versions. Knowing where to look for images of 25093, 25155 & 25252 OTTOMH, I've just checked and both features on all three should be blanked off..........are these parts supplied in the bits bag by any chance, much like such roof parts for the Class 26/27s? OK guys, you beat me to it!! Step covers also? I believe so. I’m sure I read so earlier on in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 23 hours ago, 25901 said: I hope the poor soles who have ordered the Heljan 25 get the blanking plates for the grills and steps Foot soles? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted March 5, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2021 4 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said: On an optimistic note go to Kernow’s latest newsletter for some really nice images of this model. But not,I must add,of the weathered version which is showing as not in stock . Worth a look. You are right, Kernow always have a good set of photos. I do note, however, nearly all the alphanumeric headcodes are badly fitted. I hope they are easily accessible to fit better. Roy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Thanks, my TMC one is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 8 hours ago, lyneux said: So just exactly how do you specify what a good weathering job looks like in words? It's so subjective. I'm sure the weathered sample they signed off probably looked superb. But it's really hard to say what is good and what is bad using words alone. Words are what contracts are written with unfortunately. Visible brush strokes though... that's terrible. I do feel sorry for them but surely this is the factory's fault not Olivia's? Guy Weathering specifications will be much more detailed than merely words, masters are produced and agreements will be made to match the masters as far as is practical. The wording of contracts will inextricably link the job in hand with meeting certain criteria against those masters. Its not just words, its also visual compliances. Heljan have in the past used the likes of Mercig for weathering masters, so its safe to say they take their weathered models seriously enough. They will have specified and had masters produced for something considerably different to what appears to have arrived. Really quite gutted for Ben and Heljan on this one, I hope they can get to the cause and find some answers sooner than later. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 Ben and Heljan have offered absolutely the right engagement and response to this issue. On the flip side the unweathered ones look very good 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted March 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: I am disappointed in Olivia's for the lack of knowledge of what a quality weathering standard is to offer these up for retail. Is this thread about the Heljan 25 or a “let’s bash Olivia’s Trains” opportunity. One could argue that Olivia’s has done everyone a service by photographing the model “as is”, thereby bringing the weathering issue into the open for all to see and providing Heljan with the opportunity to do something about it. Nonetheless, people can’t get enough of expressing their disappointment. Darius 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 Just now, Darius43 said: Is this thread about the Heljan 25 or a “let’s bash Olivia’s Trains” opportunity. One could argue that Olivia’s has done everyone a service by photographing the model “as is”, thereby bringing the weathering issue into the open for all to see and providing Heljan with the opportunity to do something about it. Nonetheless, people can’t get enough of expressing their disappointment. Darius No. But as a retailer (and Neil as an ex railwayman and a modeller) they should've known the weathering was unacceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 16 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said: On an optimistic note go to Kernow’s latest newsletter for some really nice images of this model. But not,I must add,of the weathered version which is showing as not in stock . Worth a look. ......obviously Kernow have the common sense to know somethings not quite right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 18 hours ago, 61661 said: I agree that these are unlikely to be the only examples not up to scratch - it's important to wait until we find out the full extent of the problem, rather than speculating. Like any busy retailer, Olivia's doesn't have time to indulge in picking out examples to suit any agendas - the first one out of the carton gets plonked in front of a camera and then they move on to the next of many jobs. This is not an Olivia's issue - it's an issue for us to take up with our supplier and resolve asap. Hence why I said earlier that if anyone receives one that they are not happy with, it should be returned for exchange/refund. Ben - don't you agree though that it would've been helpful of Olivia's to contact you before unleashing the images into the public domain. Disappointed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 19 hours ago, lyneux said: So just exactly how do you specify what a good weathering job looks like in words? It's so subjective. I'm sure the weathered sample they signed off probably looked superb. But it's really hard to say what is good and what is bad using words alone. Words are what contracts are written with unfortunately. Visible brush strokes though... that's terrible. I do feel sorry for them but surely this is the factory's fault not Olivia's? Guy Two things here. 1.Lack of training. 2.Disgruntled employee. More like the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: ......obviously Kernow have the common sense to know somethings not quite right. I would imagine that they will already have been alerted by Ben/Heljan prior to the newsletter going live yesterday afternoon as I assume will other Heljan stockists.Neil Bishop seems always to get his quotas ( not just Heljan btw ) ahead of everyone else. He has of course worked with Heljan over a number of years with the commissioning of the Class 76/77 1500dc electrics in OO. Edited March 6, 2021 by Ian Hargrave Additional text Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: Two things here. 1.Lack of training. 2.Disgruntled employee. More like the latter. I’m amazed that you can make HR assessments of a Chinese employee at this range . Do you also have the lottery numbers for tonight ? 2 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted March 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: Two things here. 1.Lack of training. 2.Disgruntled employee. More like the latter. You do Like to make a crisis out of a drama. Cheers Darius 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, rob D2 said: I’m amazed that you can make HR assessments of a Chinese employee at this range . Do you also have the lottery numbers for tonight ? 1 5 9 19 32 42 - I'll go halves. No I agree it's quite far away - but 40 years in manufacture and a QC role gives me a little bit of an insight in the human side of industry. Thanks for your valid reply Robert. Edited March 6, 2021 by Crisis Rail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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