Coulsdon Works

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Your airbrushing looks pretty good to me. I'd have been delighted to get this finish in my early attempts.

 

May I ask whose make of paint you've used - I do like the green?

 

John.

Thanks John. It’s precision paint’s BR Brunswick Green. It was rather flat when applied, but a coat of Klear (brush applied) really brought it to life....and made a good finish for applying  the transfers (which are Modelmaster).

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

The O gauge BT is almost finished.

Being a bit ‘tight’, I really struggle with the price of O gauge transfers - why does it cost 3-4 times as much in O gauge?  So I spent a long time dithering before I hit on a brainwave - Modelmaster OO gauge loco lettering is the same size (3.2mm high) as O gauge coach lettering.  So unless I’m missing something, I’ve managed to number this coach with a transfer pack already in stock and originally costing c.£4, for which I would have had to pay about £20 in O gauge. Can anyone spot an obvious problem which I’ve missed? I’m aiming at an Late ‘40s/ early ‘50s look.

 

I’m still missing a ‘guard’ transfer,  but I think I’ll wait and see if Modelmaster add any more to their 7mm range as a bit of competition is badly needed.

 

Please excuse the wonky footstep at the right end - my Mek Pak seems to have gone off in the heat and I’m waiting for new supplies. The underframe also needs weathering, but if you can see any other faults, then please let me know.

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

Guards handrails were steel and so would have been painted teak brown or (rarely) black.   Nice job, though.   Some 'No Smoking' triangles in the windows would really set it off.

[thegreenhowards]

Good point about the guard’s handrails. I remember thinking that when I put them on...but then forgot all about it! No smoking triangles is a good point - sounds like more expense! Seriously, would they be BR triangles or LNER roundels given the rest of the livery?

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

The O gauge BT is almost finished.
 

Being a bit ‘tight’, I really struggle with the price of O gauge transfers - why does it cost 3-4 times as much in O gauge?  So I spent a long time dithering before I hit on a brainwave - Modelmaster OO gauge loco lettering is the same size (3.2mm high) as O gauge coach lettering.  So unless I’m missing something, I’ve managed to number this coach with a transfer pack already in stock and originally costing c.£4, for which I would have had to pay about £20 in O gauge. Can anyone spot an obvious problem which I’ve missed? I’m aiming at an Late ‘40s/ early ‘50s look.

 

I’m still missing a ‘guard’ transfer,  but I think I’ll wait and see if Modelmaster add any more to their 7mm range as a bit of competition is badly needed.

 

Please excuse the wonky footstep at the right end - my Mek Pak seems to have gone off in the heat and I’m waiting for new supplies. The underframe also needs weathering, but if you can see any other faults, then please let me know.

 

Andy

 

Good evening Andy,

 

the number is at the wrong end for Gill sans in the late forties, very early fifties, if it is Gill sans? If so, I have never seen a curly six on a carriage number before. I quite like your weathered teak effect, however, I would consider painting the cornice teak colour and add and paint the rain guards above the doors. It makes quite a visual difference when offset against the colour off the roof.

 

The rainstrip looks a little heavy and a bit high, what about roof destination board brackets? The overall impression of the carriage looks quite nice though.

[Darryl Tooley]

22 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Can anyone spot an obvious problem which I’ve missed?

The insignia on LNER carriages was a deal more florid than that on locomotives - enough to be noticeable in 7mm, I should have thought, but it's your call.

 

 

D

[thegreenhowards]

23 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Andy,

 

the number is at the wrong end for Gill sans in the late forties, very early fifties, if it is Gill sans? If so, I have never seen a curly six on a carriage number before. I quite like your weathered teak effect, however, I would consider painting the cornice teak colour and add and paint the rain guards above the doors. It makes quite a visual difference when offset against the colour off the roof.

 

The rainstrip looks a little heavy and a bit high, what about roof destination board brackets? The overall impression of the carriage looks quite nice though.

Thanks Andrew,

 

It’s not Gill Sans, but shaded LNER numbering with an ‘E’ as in Darryl’s photo.

 

 

I think your confusion perhaps backs up Darryl’s point about lack of floridity! I’d never have noticed the difference if it wasn’t pointed out though - now it’s obvious!

 

The rainstrip is as supplied with the kit. I agree that it is too thick and would replace it with smaller diameter plastic rod if I build another one. The rain guards above the doors is a good point. Would they be roof colour or teak? As for destination board brackets, I thought they were rare on non corridor stock?

 

Andy

Edited August 21, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[thegreenhowards]

25 minutes ago, Darryl Tooley said:

The insignia on LNER carriages was a deal more florid than that on locomotives - enough to be noticeable in 7mm, I should have thought, but it's your call.

 

 

D

 

 

Thanks Darryl, I knew it couldn’t be so easy! If I build more, I’ll have to splash out on some transfers, at least there’d be more coaches to spread the cost over.

[Headstock]

19 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

It’s not Gill Sans, but shaded LNER numbering with an ‘E’ as in Darryl’s photo.

 

 

 

I think your confusion perhaps backs up Darryl’s point about lack of floridity! I’d never have noticed the difference if it wasn’t pointed out though - now it’s obvious!

 

The rainstrip is as supplied with the kit. I agree that it is too thick and would replace it with smaller diameter plastic rod if I build another one. The rain guards above the doors is a good point. Would they be roof colour or teak? As for destination board brackets, I thought they were rare on non corridor stock?

 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

the cornice was varnished teak and the rain guards teak painted metal. The look is made more clear in the white roofed carriages below.

 

Re the numbering, definitely not right  for an LNER carriage font. You could still consider Gill sans for the time period if they can be acquired cheaper in 0 gauge.

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Headstock
add space.

[thegreenhowards]

20 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

the cornice was varnished teak and the rain guards teak painted metal. The look is made more clear in the white roofed carriages below.

 

Re the numbering, definitely not right  for an LNER carriage font. You could still consider Gill sans for the time period if they can be acquired cheaper in 0 gauge.

 

Thanks, that’s a useful photo. 
 

I did consider Gills Sans and I’ve got some suitable numbers, but not the ‘E’. I’ll have a further ponder.

[John Tomlinson]

Andy, you've made a nice job of making the grab handles by the doors and the guards' rails.

 

Like you, I thought from photographic evidence that destination board brackets were not common, though they are seen on some 51ft. stock.

 

Whilst the font on your transfers might not be right for LNER, that's not the issue here, and I wonder how consistent this actually was in the early years of BR?

 

John.

[jwealleans]

10 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

would they be BR triangles or LNER roundels

The roundels were officially discarded in 1930, though there would have been a time to use up existing stock and I question whether they'd remove them unless they needed replacement.  I don't recall seeing a post-war picture with them although I'm very much open to correction on that one.

 

Andrew is of course quite right about the rain deflectors and seeing your lower down picture makes it very apparent.  The whole cornice including the rainstrips should be teak.

 

I noticed when building the D265 I've just finished that the steel stock doesn't seem to have had them.  i hadn't noticed before now.

 

As regards destination boards, for want of any other evidence I've just scanned through the Seabrook photos I have to hand.  Non-corridor stock of varied types, almost exclusively Gresley but including some steel vehicles.  The count was, 32 with no board holders, 6 with 1, 1 with 2 and 17 with 3.   I'd say that's conclusively inconclusive and you can decide what you prefer.  Important to note, though, that 'none' indicates no roof mounted board holders; even with those fitted, these vehicles all had the small clips on the cornice to hold a short board like those used on the old Howlden stock. 

 

Edit  - to prove myself wrong, had a look at some immediately postwar pictures (carriages with 'E' numbers but in the ornate LNER style).  5 of the first 8 still had the circular No Smoking signs.  All were ex-GER vehicles, so nothing to do with new construction either.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by jwealleans

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks Jonathan, but I’m now rather confused. From the pictures (All books - I don’t have a great library of photos sadly) I’ve looked at all coaches in LNER livery had blue oblong ‘Smoking’ signs and/or beige ‘No Smoking’ roundels. I have found pictures of new coaches in the mid ‘30s with the roundel (e.g. p24 of Campling’s LNER coach diagram book).

 

I haven’t found any pictures of red triangles in teak livery. As I understand it the red triangle was a BR invention (or maybe an import from a lessor big four railway?). I can imagine that red triangles appeared occasionally as replacements on teak livery in the early fifties but surely they would be the exception rather than the rule?

 

I’m sorry to bombard you with questions but I want to I get this right!

 

At least I can relax on the roof boards!

 

Andy

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Jonathan, but I’m now rather confused. From the pictures (All books - I don’t have a great library of photos sadly) I’ve looked at all coaches in LNER livery had blue oblong ‘Smoking’ signs and/or beige ‘No Smoking’ roundels. I have found pictures of new coaches in the mid ‘30s with the roundel (e.g. p24 of Campling’s LNER coach diagram book).

 

I haven’t found any pictures of red triangles in teak livery. As I understand it the red triangle was a BR invention (or maybe an import from a lessor big four railway?). I can imagine that red triangles appeared occasionally as replacements on teak livery in the early fifties but surely they would be the exception rather than the rule?

 

I’m sorry to bombard you with questions but I want to I get this right!

 

At least I can relax on the roof boards!

 

Andy

 

Good afternoon Andy

Only two fonts were present in the early BR period, LNER shaded transfers and Gill sans, adopted from the LNER by BR.

 

There was a wonderful diversity in how the two fonts and their prefixes and later suffixes were combined, positioned and applied to carriages through the first half decade after nationalization. The examples posted below will illustrate this. There are quite a few Thompsons, as they are the carriages introduced concurrently with the changes.

The painted teak Thompson TO  below, carries the standard, pre nationalization, LNER shaded transfer insignia, without an E prefix. However, the Gresley Restaurant car to the left, is painted crimson and cream, with a right hand Gill sans number, with E prefix only. BR started applying the numbering to the right hand end of passenger carriages in 1950.

 

 

This Thompson Pantry car, has the original BR number at the left hand end, with the E prefix only. This position was introduced in 1949. Note the LNER style window insignia on a brand new carriage.

 

 

It can be seen that this Gresley TK has had the LNER branding removed and a matching E prefix added to the right hand number in LNER shaded transfers.

 

 

A better shot of the shaded  E prefix on an ex GER composite. When the shaded E prefix was added, it was normal to reapply the number to keep everything central on a panel or in relation to a window.

 

The ex GER composite is attached to this ex GCR Restaurant car. It displays the earlier mismatched E prefix, this was added to the shaded transfer numbering, by painting on an E in Gill sans lettering.
 

 

 

More to follow, please observe copyright.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Headstock
add space

[Headstock]

Thompson corridor third has the mismatched E prefix and also E suffix added to its original LNER right hand shaded transfer number. The E suffix was introduced in 1951.

 

 

Thompson open first has LNER shaded transfers added to the left hand end with E prefix. This was the original BR designation position for passenger carriages. The first class designation is in Gill sans on the lower part of the door panel. The Gresley carriage to the left has LNER shaded transfers but in LNER position, right hand end with E prefix and the same style first class designation on the lower door panel.

 

 

 

A Thompson third in the South Yorkshireman, it has Gill Sans with an E prefix towards the left hand end. The BR instructions indicated for the number be placed up against the furthest side door. The furthest door on Thompson stock was much closer to the middle resulting in this unusual configuration. The carriage is in crimson and cream with a crimson band below the cornice , the carriage was photographed in 1952.

 

 

Ex GER carriage with the final version of BR Gill sans, right hand end, with E prefix and suffix but on a mud brown paint finish. Notice the colour of the lettering.

 

 

Just for fun, this Thompson third has lost its LNER branding but has been redesignated first class, by the addition of first class LNER shaded transferred to the upper part of the doors. The crimson and cream carriage to the left, has right hand Gill sans with E prefix only. Note the BR style window designations for first class and smoking in E 13811.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Headstock
add info.

[John Tomlinson]

Andrew (Headstock), that's a very full answer to my query about consistency in the early BR period, not to mention giving Andy a lot of food for thought.

 

Off topic, but do you consider the GC coaches such as the Restaurant Car in the photos, to have the same roof profile as Gresley and Thompsons?

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

[Headstock]

1 minute ago, John Tomlinson said:

Andrew (Headstock), that's a very full answer to my query about consistency in the early BR period, not to mention giving Andy a lot of food for thought.

 

Off topic, but do you consider the GC coaches such as the Restaurant Car in the photos, to have the same roof profile as Gresley and Thompsons?

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

 

Afternoon John,

 

no, the GC carriages had a much higher more curved roof.

[thegreenhowards]

Andrew,

 

Thank you so much for that very informative response. I do appreciate the time you must have put in to digging those photos out. What a fantastic array of different applications - I could almost summarise it as: there’s a prototype for everything except for what I did!
 

I will ponder further on what version to apply to my BT while I sort out the rain strips.

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

This is what Harris has to say about the Smoking/No Smoking notices (LNER Standard Gresley Carriages, p. 14):

 

Labels for windows denoting 'Smoking' in blue were introduced in 1925.  A 'Smoking prohibited' label began to be applied from 1930, replaced by a red triangular label the following year.  In 1933 a profitable contract was concluded with Imperial tobacco for 'Smoking' labels to appear in windows.  On expiry of the contract in 1942 it was decided that only 'No Smoking' labels should be displayed on carriage windows.

 

Given that Andrew's shown us pictures of new Thompson carriages with the circular gold 'No Smoking' label, either they had enormous stocks to use up or Harris is wrong. 

 

The red triangle was certainly in use prewar by the LMS.  I'd have to look again to see whether I have anything showing it in LNER vehicles before Nationalisation.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Andrew,

 

Thank you so much for that very informative response. I do appreciate the time you must have put in to digging those photos out. What a fantastic array of different applications - I could almost summarise it as: there’s a prototype for everything except for what I did!
 

I will ponder further on what version to apply to my BT while I sort out the rain strips.

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy,

 

it's the period that I model, so it doesn't take a lot of digging. It's a time that doesn't get a lot of interest to be honest, most recoil in horror and reach for their maroon tinted sunglasses and their copy of Parkin (MA), I'm only too glad to assist if anyone shows an interest.

 

P.S. Rather than seeing it as a 'prototype for everything', see it as a story. A set of incremental changes between 1947 and 1951.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Headstock
add P.S.

[thegreenhowards]

I agree that it’s an interesting period, although a rather run down one that perhaps lacked some of the glamour of pre war or later fifties trains. The transition to British Railways doesn’t fit neatly into the RTR era classification and as you’ve shown there was a lot of variation in a short period. It’s interesting that, despite all this variation, the small number of RTR coaches that have been produced for this era (Hornby Gresleys and Bachmann Thompsons in teak with BR numbers) all follow the shame pattern of Exxxxx numbers at the right hand end and Smoking prohibited roundels, although Bachmann seem to omit the blue  ‘smoking’  oblongs.

 

 

As for my coach, I‘d like to go for the ‘Roundel look’ but I can’t find any Roundel or blue oblong transfers, even in 4mm scale. What do you use Andrew?

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[Headstock]

34 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree that it’s an interesting period, although a rather run down one that perhaps lacked some of the glamour of pre war or later fifties trains. The transition to British Railways doesn’t fit neatly into the RTR era classification and as you’ve shown there was a lot of variation in a short period. It’s interesting that, despite all this variation, the small number of RTR coaches that have been produced for this era (Hornby Gresleys and Bachmann Thompsons in teak with BR numbers) all follow the shame pattern of Exxxxx numbers at the right hand end and Smoking prohibited roundels, although Bachmann seem to omit the blue  ‘smoking’  oblongs.

 

 

As for my coach, I‘d like to go for the ‘Roundel look’ but I can’t find any Roundel or blue oblong transfers, even in 4mm scale. What do you use Andrew?

 

 

Evening Andy,

 

Holy moly, I've not seen a Bachmann Thompson before, it looks a very funny colour, more like oatmeal than painted teak! There is some great colour film of Thomson teak coloured carriages on a DVD called North of (or from) Newcastle. The Bachmann carriage looks to have got the distance between queen posts right and the other details look as they should, while the same space on the Hornby one looks hopelessly too small and the underframe gubbins are underscale as a result.

 

I use the LMS smoking signs if required, from the relevant HMRS sheet, they look identical to the LNER ones. I cut the roundel off the correct size Gill sans sixes that I never use, also HMRS. They make great substitute no smoking signs and nobody notices. I forget were the first class numbers come from, they are also from one of the HMRS sheet. I have also used some custom made ones but they were too flimsy and I couldn't tell the difference at six inches away. 

[Headstock]

 

This is a Thompson composite that I did a couple of years ago.

 

You can see the figure one in the window to the right of the first class door, this is the extent of the first class area. The Gill sans number is another variant, being central on the window but to the left hand end. I think that this was influenced by the 1948 experimental liveries.

 

Bachmann have got the paneling wrong on their version of painted teak. It wasn't divide between uprights on corridor or compartment stock and the panels were full length between doors.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Headstock
add info.

[jwealleans]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I can’t find any Roundel or blue oblong transfers

 

John Peck at Precision Decals.  He does a sheet entirely for LNER/BR(ER) at my suggestion. I think it's in his main range but if you can't find it drop him an email.   Gold roundels, blue oblongs and red triangles.

[micklner]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

 

John Peck at Precision Decals.  He does a sheet entirely for LNER/BR(ER) at my suggestion. I think it's in his main range but if you can't find it drop him an email.   Gold roundels, blue oblongs and red triangles.

They are here.   

http://www.precisionlabels.com/d10.html

 

A bit fiddly to use and slightly fragile. I would place them on the inside of the window for safety.

 

I ordered some from him recently he kindly just printed the LNER Circles and Smoking signs, otherwise you end up with loads of useless ones for other eras. I could'nt see any LNER/BR versions  listed on their own.

 

The next problem is figuring out which compartments were smoking and non smoking on each Coach!.