Coulsdon Works

[micklner]

Acetone would remove the superglue normally, no idea if it would also melt the body. Or cut down the joins with a fine fret saw blade.

Edited September 29, 2020 by micklner

[Headstock]

51 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Gorilla Superglue.

 

 

Apologies for the delayed reply, I was interrupted by the daily telephonic communication from the Corona wastelands. Flux is a great super glue killer, I don't know if it would turn the material (what is it?) into something unholy though.

[thegreenhowards]

3 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

 

Apologies for the delayed reply, I was interrupted by the daily telephonic communication from the Corona wastelands. Flux is a great super glue killer, I don't know if it would turn the material (what is it?) into something unholy though.

Thanks. I could test it on the spare roof! The material is resin.

[thegreenhowards]

Well I can confirm three facts about resin, superglue and flux:

1. The flux is safe on (Isinglass) resin;

2. Flus doesn’t do anything to Gorilla glue superglue; and

3. Resin is very brittle!

 

 

I’m afraid that I’m a rather clumsy modeller at times but even by my standards this was a quite spectacular destruction!

 

Anyway, after putting it away for a couple of days, I decided to replace the end with plasticard and it came out OK as I hope this photo shows.

 

 

I think that after filling and filing down, the end to side joints are much better and I decided not to tackle the other end as, with the steps Etc., it would be much more difficult to replace out of plasticard.

 

I’ve now sprayed it with filler primer and I think it looks OK. Tomorrow I will start the teaking process.

 

 

Andy

Edited October 5, 2020 by thegreenhowards
Typos

[Headstock]

57 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Well I can confirm three facts about resin, superglue and flux:

1. The flux is safe on (Isinglass) resin;

2. Flus doesn’t do anything to Gorilla glue superglue; and

3. Resin is very brittle!

 

 

I’m afraid that I’m a rather clumsy modeller at times but even by my standards this was a quite spectacular destruction!

 

Anyway, after putting it away for a couple of days, I decided to replace the end with plasticard and it came out OK as I hope this photo shows.

 

 

I think that after filling and filing down, the end to side joints are much better and I decided not to tackle the other end as, with the steps Etc., it would be much more difficult to replace out of plasticard.

 

I’ve now sprayed it with filler primer and I think it looks OK. Tomorrow I will start the teaking process.

 

 

Andy

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

wow, what a huge improvement, I'm impressed, one end at least looks more like the real thing. The mutant 't other end, has so much extra material and sticks out so far, it looks like a thick slice of bread in comparison! It's so big, you could probably just cut it off, blindfolded with a bandsaw. File it down to a fine edge and refit it back on the body.

 

A couple of additional things could be done to make the kit more like the real thing. The rainstrip could do with repositioning closer to the cornice, the door hinges should be removed from the Guards door, (it opens inwards, not outwards) the stepboard is a little short and for future builds, Isinglass have added an imaginary arc of beading to the tops of their ends. File it off, it wasn't there on the real non gangway carriages built by the GN, LNER or for the ECJS.

 

P.S.

 

Quite impressed that you can fashion a new corrected end, while it is apparently beyond Isinglass to do so. I may order a BT (5) and copy your method.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Headstock
add P.S.

[micklner]

As said before a fine fretsaw blade ,will be the best way forward on cutting the the other end. With care it should'nt snap. Would Isinglass provide a new end, if needed in due course?

 

There was a built one on ebay which may help . Now sold for silly money!!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GNR-Milk-Van-in-LNER-livery-kit-built-/284032966330?nma=true&si=m5%2FpwVhLK%2FM6khQfGcc0wHs16Js%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

On 29/09/2020 at 08:50, micklner said:

Could the corners be made @ 45 degrees , it looks so wrong at the moment . Does the Roof fit it looks too short as well due to the ends stickingout too far  ?. I have seen photos of  the Isinglass Pigeon van they do not have the same corner design.

 

The isinglass model does'nt have the problem either?

 

https://www.isinglass-models.co.uk/

Hi Mick and Andy

 

I have a dia 40 3 compartment BSK, the ends and sides have square corners. This in turn on a dry run meant the coach was too long or too wide. I have filed the corners to 45 degrees, all looked well on the dry run.

 

Now myself and superglue don't have the bestest of relationships and last night has not improved them. One end wouldn't stick, the other end one side ended up in the wrong position one and a bit millimeters too high. This was not discovered until I freed my finger from the model. Knowing superglue hates me I thought it best to place some paper between the coach and the modelling mat. The end that would not stick did stick to the paper. The end that was too high had only stuck for part of its length, so I carefully used my craft knife to prize the the end and side apart. Crack went the window frame around the toilet window as a small part stayed stuck and the side fell on the floor finding some dog hairs to stick to it.

 

I did try a second time, managing to sick my fingers to the paper and I still and a collection of bits not a coach body.

 

Today I took delivery of some Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches to convert into types that are not available as RTR models. Oh the joy of working with plastic solvent. 

[micklner]

20 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mick and Andy

 

I have a dia 40 3 compartment BSK, the ends and sides have square corners. This in turn on a dry run meant the coach was too long or too wide. I have filed the corners to 45 degrees, all looked well on the dry run.

 

Now myself and superglue don't have the bestest of relationships and last night has not improved them. One end wouldn't stick, the other end one side ended up in the wrong position one and a bit millimeters too high. This was not discovered until I freed my finger from the model. Knowing superglue hates me I thought it best to place some paper between the coach and the modelling mat. The end that would not stick did stick to the paper. The end that was too high had only stuck for part of its length, so I carefully used my craft knife to prize the the end and side apart. Crack went the window frame around the toilet window as a small part stayed stuck and the side fell on the floor finding some dog hairs to stick to it.

 

I did try a second time, managing to sick my fingers to the paper and I still and a collection of bits not a coach body.

 

Today I took delivery of some Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches to convert into types that are not available as RTR models. Oh the joy of working with plastic solvent. 

I use superglue with a accelerator aerosol , one side/corner at at a time,bonds quickly and hopefully cleanly !!.

I use this one

https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-mitre-adhesive-trade-pack-400ml/35338

 

Does Isinglass suggest a method for gluing  the body together?  The instructions, I recieved for the Isinglass Fox Bogies were very poor.

[jwealleans]

I think I stuck mine together by holding/wedging the side and end in place then using a cocktail stick to run a bead of superglue along the joint.

[Clive Mortimore]

44 minutes ago, micklner said:

I use superglue with a accelerator aerosol , one side/corner at at a time,bonds quickly and hopefully cleanly !!.

I use this one

https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-mitre-adhesive-trade-pack-400ml/35338

 

Does Isinglass suggest a method for gluing  the body together?  The instructions, I recieved for the Isinglass Fox Bogies were very poor.

Hi Mick

 

All the instructions say is "Superglue works fine as adhesive."  Nothing about it is suitable for gluing the kit to your fingers.

 

Maybe Jonathan's method is advisable when I build up the enthusiasm to have another go.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[micklner]

19 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mick

 

All the instructions say is "Superglue works fine as adhesive."  Nothing about it is suitable for gluing the kit to your fingers.

 

Maybe Jonathan's method is advisable when I build up the enthusiasm to have another go.

Cive, use the accelerator as well , less time for anything to move, including fingers  !!!

 

Jonathan , did you have to chamfer the corners on yours, before they would fit correctly ?

Edited October 5, 2020 by micklner

[jwealleans]

I didn't, I built it exactly as suggested.   It ended up pretty much bang on lengthwise but the ends were overthick, so there must have been some adjustment of the sides to allow for that.  The joints weren't great but not so bad as to try to undo them. 

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mick

 

All the instructions say is "Superglue works fine as adhesive."  Nothing about it is suitable for gluing the kit to your fingers.

 

Maybe Jonathan's method is advisable when I build up the enthusiasm to have another go.

Ha, perhaps we could form a "haters of superglue" club. Doesn't stick when you want it to, does when you don't, a menace. Not to mention that  after you've used half the bottle it goes hard, and you chuck the rest away.

 

I glued my one, and to date only Isinglass 3D print coach together with 5 minute Araldite Rapid, which seeemed to work fine, with just enough time to check everything was as should be.

 

Andy, I think your Pigeon Van looks a lot better, nice coat of brown grot and it'll be just the job!

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

5 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

wow, what a huge improvement, I'm impressed, one end at least looks more like the real thing. The mutant 't other end, has so much extra material and sticks out so far, it looks like a thick slice of bread in comparison! It's so big, you could probably just cut it off, blindfolded with a bandsaw. File it down to a fine edge and refit it back on the body.

 

A couple of additional things could be done to make the kit more like the real thing. The rainstrip could do with repositioning closer to the cornice, the door hinges should be removed from the Guards door, (it opens inwards, not outwards) the stepboard is a little short and for future builds, Isinglass have added an imaginary arc of beading to the tops of their ends. File it off, it wasn't there on the real non gangway carriages built by the GN, LNER or for the ECJS.

 

P.S.

 

Quite impressed that you can fashion a new corrected end, while it is apparently beyond Isinglass to do so. I may order a BT (5) and copy your method.

 

 

Thanks for your comments Andrew. I’m afraid I’m going to leave the other end - I had enough excitement with the easy end! And my relationship with superglue is not much better than Clive’s. I can probably manage to remove the door hinges though.
 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

As said before a fine fretsaw blade ,will be the best way forward on cutting the the other end. With care it should'nt snap. Would Isinglass provide a new end, if needed in due course?

 

There was a built one on ebay which may help . Now sold for silly money!!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GNR-Milk-Van-in-LNER-livery-kit-built-/284032966330?nma=true&si=m5%2FpwVhLK%2FM6khQfGcc0wHs16Js%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

Not that silly given that the kit costs £47 and then you’ve got to add wheels, underframe bits, paint etc. I note that he’s put battery boxes on both sides as provided for in the kit but I’m pretty sure they were only fitted one side.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

40 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Ha, perhaps we could form a "haters of superglue" club. Doesn't stick when you want it to, does when you don't, a menace. Not to mention that  after you've used half the bottle it goes hard, and you chuck the rest away.

 

I glued my one, and to date only Isinglass 3D print coach together with 5 minute Araldite Rapid, which seeemed to work fine, with just enough time to check everything was as should be.

 

Andy, I think your Pigeon Van looks a lot better, nice coat of brown grot and it'll be just the job!

 

John.

I think 5 minute epoxy might be the answer. I’ll try that next time. 
 

I’m thinking of a teak finish rather than ‘brown grot’. I suspect they were mainly in coach brown by the early fifties but I think it’s a cute vehicle and deserves better!
 

Andy
 

P.S. Don’t call it a pigeon van or you’ll set Andrew off on a rant!

[Headstock]

47 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks for your comments Andrew. I’m afraid I’m going to leave the other end - I had enough excitement with the easy end! And my relationship with superglue is not much better than Clive’s. I can probably manage to remove the door hinges though.
 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

I'm not touching the non gangway Isinglass kits unless they are to be corrected. Jonathan reminded me in his post, that the sides have been squashed in length to accommodate the sticky out ends. If you had corrected the other end, the whole thing would presumably then be too short! Perhaps the gangway stock will be better, I'm still waiting for someone to build one of them and publish. I would love to get them to do one of the original Gresley 56' 6'' BG's but I fear that they would be too complicated to produce in resin, due to the plug doors, let alone getting simple things like the length right. 

 

Back to soldering for me, dia 210 twin ('budgie van') is well on its way. An accurate, elegant and robust kit, designed by somebody who knows the prototype inside out.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

I'm not touching the non gangway Isinglass kits unless they are to be corrected. Jonathan reminded me in his post, that the sides have been squashed in length to accommodate the sticky out ends. If you had corrected the other end, the whole thing would presumably then be too short! Perhaps the gangway stock will be better, I'm still waiting for someone to build one of them and publish. I would love to get them to do one of the original Gresley 56' 6'' BG's but I fear that they would be too complicated to produce in resin, due to the plug doors, let alone getting simple things like the length right. 

 

Back to soldering for me, dia 210 twin ('budgie van') is well on its way. An accurate, elegant and robust kit, designed by somebody who knows the prototype inside out.

 

 

Morning Andrew,

 

According to my ruler, the sides come out at at spot on 51’, so we’re arguing about <1mm - completely invisible in practice. So, unless you’re about to switch to P4 I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill! If I did it again, I would file the ends down to fit inside the sides and I’d have an almost perfect vehicle. 

 

As for the gangway stock, I’m starting on a D.78V buffet car and I’m afraid it has the same issue. I’ve tried to file the ends down on this and I think it looks better - photos later. Andrew is aware of the issue and is working on a solution but apparently it’s not straightforward because of the way the 3D printing works.

 

Overall I think these kits make good, well detailed, affordable, easy to build models of prototypes which are otherwise unavailable and look the part when finished. Moreover, if one has the time and skill to treat them as ‘scratch aids’, one could build a model which bears comparison with a good brass kit. As such I think they should be welcomed.

 

I look forward to seeing your D.210 twin - a very attractive prototype and I’m sure you’ll make a superb job of it. I have a Masterpiece models kit of it to build after your earlier recommendation which I’m looking forward to.

 

Andy

[John Tomlinson]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

I'm not touching the non gangway Isinglass kits unless they are to be corrected. Jonathan reminded me in his post, that the sides have been squashed in length to accommodate the sticky out ends. If you had corrected the other end, the whole thing would presumably then be too short! Perhaps the gangway stock will be better, I'm still waiting for someone to build one of them and publish. I would love to get them to do one of the original Gresley 56' 6'' BG's but I fear that they would be too complicated to produce in resin, due to the plug doors, let alone getting simple things like the length right. 

 

Back to soldering for me, dia 210 twin ('budgie van') is well on its way. An accurate, elegant and robust kit, designed by somebody who knows the prototype inside out.

 

 

Andrew,

 

I may have  shown this before, but here is a pic of a Dia.109 sleeper, after initial assembly. The mounting ledges inside the ends needed filing to get the right shape for the sides, but not that difficult to do. The roof is almost spot on, just a smidge long to enable dressing to length.

 

Along with another seven vehicles, including the Articulated stock you helped me with, I'm hoping to get outside tomorrow (if it doesn't rain) with the airbrush to give it a blast of etch primer.

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

That looks good to me John. Why are you using etch primer. I just use the Halfords filler primer straight onto the resin.

 

Andy

[John Tomlinson]

Andy,

 

The main reason is that I've used it before on resin and know that it works - so far! I don't quite know why, but it does, it really bites into the surface and grips. I hope it will work on this kit, as you know there seems to be two types of resin used as the roof and bogies are not the same material as the sides and ends. Also on this coach there's now a whole pile of MJT brass and whitemetal as the undergubbins - trussing, battery boxes and vac. assembly - that needs priming as well.

 

The other thing is that I've never been able to get on with rattle cans, the process terrifies me as well with the lack of control, and provided I don't linger afterwards and clean the airbrush out straight away  there are no adverse effects from the etch primer.

 

I do however like to spray outside, I've done inside and don't think the fumes are that great, even with a mask, and I've used a spray booth inside and don't like that either, as the visibility isn't so good - whereas outside it's a lot brighter and there isn't a smell. So in Britain that is a constraint, and I tend to collect a few things to paint and do a batch.

 

John.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Morning Andrew,

 

According to my ruler, the sides come out at at spot on 51’, so we’re arguing about <1mm - completely invisible in practice. So, unless you’re about to switch to P4 I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill! If I did it again, I would file the ends down to fit inside the sides and I’d have an almost perfect vehicle. 

 

As for the gangway stock, I’m starting on a D.78V buffet car and I’m afraid it has the same issue. I’ve tried to file the ends down on this and I think it looks better - photos later. Andrew is aware of the issue and is working on a solution but apparently it’s not straightforward because of the way the 3D printing works.

 

Overall I think these kits make good, well detailed, affordable, easy to build models of prototypes which are otherwise unavailable and look the part when finished. Moreover, if one has the time and skill to treat them as ‘scratch aids’, one could build a model which bears comparison with a good brass kit. As such I think they should be welcomed.

 

I look forward to seeing your D.210 twin - a very attractive prototype and I’m sure you’ll make a superb job of it. I have a Masterpiece models kit of it to build after your earlier recommendation which I’m looking forward to.

 

Andy

 

Good morning Andy,

 

it is not invisible in practice. The body over the ends and the underframes over the headstock should be the same length, the body should always be flush with the headstock on these types carriages. Your photographs show that this is not the case. When the body is short and the ends stick out too far, this is completely predictable that they don't match. It would have been nice to cut and shut the sides into the Hornby RTR non gangway carriages, to extend the range. If the sides are the correct length, this would be fairly easy, even a mil short and it becomes a pig of a job.

  
I don't hold much truck with Isinglass on this matter. Other manufactures, Bill Bedford, Mike Trice, in resin, and even Kirk back in the day with plastic, manage to get such a fundamental thing right. Is technology going backwards?
 

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

Andrew,

 

I may have  shown this before, but here is a pic of a Dia.109 sleeper, after initial assembly. The mounting ledges inside the ends needed filing to get the right shape for the sides, but not that difficult to do. The roof is almost spot on, just a smidge long to enable dressing to length.

 

Along with another seven vehicles, including the Articulated stock you helped me with, I'm hoping to get outside tomorrow (if it doesn't rain) with the airbrush to give it a blast of etch primer.

 

John.

 

Thanks for the photo reminder,

 

I'm looking forwards to seeing the finished item, just because you get a better impression of the fit of the parts. Is the roof attached in your photo? Andy seems to be indicating there is the same problem with the ends on the gangway stock. If so, I think that you have made an excellent job of the fit of the ends, they look how I would expect them to and would purchase. A photo of your methodology would be very helpful and may help Andy if he is having a problem.

 

Roofs are an interesting one, as it was actually flush with the ends. The overhang is basically a beading strip that continues the cornice around.
 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Headstock
headstock not bufferbeam.

[John Tomlinson]

Andrew, in the picture the roof is not fixed. It is still not fixed as the sides are designed to "clip" into a raised rebate inthe base, this keeps them straight and also the base straight and horizontal. The outcome is that you need to glue the roof on after finishing, not my preferred method but as with a bit of fettling I've got it to be a snug push fit, something I'll run with. Thanks for the note about the end overhang being cornice, not roof, as I model BR it will all be gray in any case, rather than an elegant teak line.

 

As I mentioned, the ends have a ledge moulded inside to fit inside the sides and so make a corner joint. Unfortunately this ledge isn't the right shape and needs a bit of work with the file to get it right, but no big deal really to do.

 

I've attached another picture "in the raw" from above which may help a bit.

 

The other thing I'd mention is washing. I did some light sanding on the sides and ends when the kit came, as there were faint - and I mean faint - printing marks. So did this with fine wet and dry used wet, around a very small balsa block. Then washed in kitchen cleaner and rinsed all parts. Did some more work including most of the undergubbins and washed with Cif/ Jif again. Finished to prepare for painting and last Sunday another washing, along with seven other coaches, two Mig 17's and a Bachmann Peak with new etched grilles, this done with latex gloves, so no touching and hopefully the prelude to a successful spraying this week. This might seem OTT, but anything that reduces the risk of failure in finishing is good by me!

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

Here is the promised picture of my D.78V buffet car. This is one of the LNER conversions from ECJS and GNR open thirds. There were only a handful of these and I think each one was subtly different in terms of beading/ vents/ panelling/ ends. I’m modelling E43134E ex ECJS, mainly because I have a few pictures of it. 

 

I think Andrew will complain that the headstock is still marginally short of the end of the sides and I have some tidying up to do around the end joints but I think it’s too late to do any more fundamental changes on this one.

 

 

These pictures show that the filler primer hasn’t covered all the 3D printing marks so I have some serious sanding to do. I also note that the vertical beading on the long sides is missing. I had to move the isinglass printed beading as it was in the wrong place for this vehicle and plastic strip doesn’t adhere easily to the resin!

Edited October 6, 2020 by thegreenhowards
Beading comment.

[John Tomlinson]

Andy, I see that the base has on your Dia.78V has the raised rebate inside to clip the sides to, have you used this feature? I ask as the primer yellow has been very cleanly kept off the base, or is it just careful masking?

 

John.