Coulsdon Works

[Headstock]

58 minutes ago, micklner said:

Looks to pale to me , it looks very similar to Bachmann's Brown used on their old Thompson Coaches. Steps were Black.

 

I use Precision LNER Teak , a darker shade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Afternoon Mick,

 

the carriages above were not painted over all plain brown, rather simulated teak, so the colour is kind of irrelevant. The link below shows the appearance of the unlined version of this livery, as it was applied to steel paneled Gresley stock and as it would have been seen in the post war period. The colours are a little desaturated in the reproduction shown and should be a bit brighter. In the period that is being modeled (?), it is possible that the solebars and stepboards were painted black.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

The livery applied to the Thompson deal BG is believed to be identical to that used on the long wheelbase CCT's. This was gloss paint supplied for the first time by an outside contractor (The Rippon people, the name slips my mind at the mo) rather than a matt paint mixed on sight by the local LNER works and then varnished. The two colours were quite different.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Headstock
add info deal BG

[micklner]

44 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Mick,

 

the carriages above were not painted over all plain brown, rather simulated teak, so the colour is kind of irrelevant. The link below shows the appearance of the unlined version of this livery, as it was applied to steel paneled Gresley stock and as it would have been seen in the post war period. The colours are a little desaturated in the reproduction shown and should be a bit brighter. In the period that is being modeled (?), it is possible that the solebars and stepboards were painted black.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

The livery applied to the Thompson deal BG is believed to be identical to that used on the long wheelbase CCT's. This was gloss paint supplied for the first time by an outside contractor (The Rippon people, the name slips my mind at the mo) rather than a matt paint mixed on sight by the local LNER works and then varnished. The two colours were quite different.

 

The previous post to mine stated he was painting it in "Coach Brown " . Hence my comment re the colour shown. As to shades of Brown no one seems to really know what actual shades were used .

 

Hornby done the LWB CCT's in a shade of Brown as well , no idea however if thats is correct either !!

Photos for these ones even vary in shade on a  Google search !!

 

 

 

I have never read anything stating Black solebars ,other than on wagons.

[jwealleans]

The LMS CCT Hornby did was apparently painted bauxite by the LMS.  I recall a correspondence with Richard Hollingsworth at PD about that before they amended their instructions.   We were both working from Bob Essery's advice, but it had changed over time. 

 

I didn't know about black solebars just after the second war; something to keep an eye out for.  Only on Thompson stock, or anything which was repainted?

[Headstock]

51 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

The LMS CCT Hornby did was apparently painted bauxite by the LMS.  I recall a correspondence with Richard Hollingsworth at PD about that before they amended their instructions.   We were both working from Bob Essery's advice, but it had changed over time. 

 

I didn't know about black solebars just after the second war; something to keep an eye out for.  Only on Thompson stock, or anything which was repainted?

 

Afternoon Jonathan,

 

Solebars and headstocks were painted black during the war as part of the austerity livery. lining of carriages was discontinued, wheel centres were also painted black. LNER was shortened to NE, roofs were lead grey or sometimes bauxite/teak/ brownish. Beach brown was restored to solebars after the war but remained a minority on pre Thompson stock. Other carriages were never repainted during the war and initially retained much of their pre war identities.

 

The photo below shows from left to right, LNER mix of mud brown with black solebars on a tourist stock brake, This was the typical LNER brown paint scheme, as opposed to that sourced from outside manufactures in the late thirties (ie 1939). I was told this was a mix of wagon oxide and wagon grey. Notice the fresh bauxite/teak painted roof of the next carriage and a genuine teak finish on the GC matchboard carriage to the far right

 

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

The LMS CCT Hornby did was apparently painted bauxite by the LMS.  I recall a correspondence with Richard Hollingsworth at PD about that before they amended their instructions.   We were both working from Bob Essery's advice, but it had changed over time. 

 

I didn't know about black solebars just after the second war; something to keep an eye out for.  Only on Thompson stock, or anything which was repainted?

 

P.S.

 

The bauxite teak roof belongs to a Gresley non gangway carriage, recently refurbished. I'm not clear if this is genuine teak of steel paneled carriage in painted teak, both are possible. The painted teak was so good that it was easily mistaken for freshly outshoped teak. My Father remembered the mud brown on carriages in the 1930's but also what he initially thought were immaculate NER carriages in varnished teak. They were actually painted!

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks for all your responses. I have to say I’m still a bit confused! 
 

Andrew, are you saying that it should definitely be in painted teak livery rather than coach brown (for 1953)? If so, I have a major challenge on my hands! If I can get away with coach brown, it sounds like the consensus is that it should be darker and that it should have black footsteps and possibly a black sole bar. Is that correct?

 

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Mick,

 

the carriages above were not painted over all plain brown, rather simulated teak, so the colour is kind of irrelevant. The link below shows the appearance of the unlined version of this livery, as it was applied to steel paneled Gresley stock and as it would have been seen in the post war period. The colours are a little desaturated in the reproduction shown and should be a bit brighter. In the period that is being modeled (?), it is possible that the solebars and stepboards were painted black.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

The livery applied to the Thompson deal BG is believed to be identical to that used on the long wheelbase CCT's. This was gloss paint supplied for the first time by an outside contractor (The Rippon people, the name slips my mind at the mo) rather than a matt paint mixed on sight by the local LNER works and then varnished. The two colours were quite different.

 

It’s the first picture on that Steve Banks link which really scares me! I could just about imagine doing some transfer lining, but the idea of the painted fuzzy black line to represent the dirk around non existent beading looks impossible in 4mm scale.

[jwealleans]

I think that's going to be so small as to be invisible in 4mm, Andy.   Have a look at what Mike Trice has done to Thompson stock if you haven't already and I'd try something similar if it were me. 

 

If you want to try for the effect, I might try scribing a shallow line into the paint and then weathering so dirt accumulates in the line and can be gently spread downwards from it.

[Headstock]

57 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks for all your responses. I have to say I’m still a bit confused! 
 

Andrew, are you saying that it should definitely be in painted teak livery rather than coach brown (for 1953)? If so, I have a major challenge on my hands! If I can get away with coach brown, it sounds like the consensus is that it should be darker and that it should have black footsteps and possibly a black sole bar. Is that correct?

 

 

Plain brown paint was mostly reserved for the old bangers. The tourist stock were a special case, as the cream/green with white roofs, was regarded as a bit of a bomb magnet and a pain to keep clean anyway. Only some stock built to LNER Gresley designs received brown paint, for example, a bunch of BG's actually built during the war, that were turned out with plywood rather than teak paneling and also a batch with steel paneling. I don't have any evidence of steel carriages that were originally painted teak being painted plain brown after the War. There is plenty of evidence of the teak finish being retained. The banks photo shows a carriage that has been repainted but in an Austerity version of painted teak with perhaps a single pass of the scumble. You can tell this because of the lack of pre War class numbers on the doors. Incidentally, the carriage is not lined out.

 

40 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

It’s the first picture on that Steve Banks link which really scares me! I could just about imagine doing some transfer lining, but the idea of the painted fuzzy black line to represent the dirk around non existent beading looks impossible in 4mm scale.

 

At the end of the day it's your carriage, you can do what you want with it, by 1953, it would probably be crimson and cream anyway. If you were to ask me what I thought as being the historically correct livery, then the finish in the Banks photo would be most likely and plain brown not very likely. Carriages didn't receive a full repaint unless absolutely necessary during the War.

 

As for the painting technique, it's not that hard. A bit of Masking, a bit of dirt wash, allow to dry a while then remove the excess with a cotton bud, leaving dirt around the edge of the masking tape and around the edge of the door furniture. I thought you had an airbrush? You could mask of and spray lightly along the edge, I often do.

[thegreenhowards]

7 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Plain brown paint was mostly reserved for the old bangers. The tourist stock were a special case, as the cream/green with white roofs, was regarded as a bit of a bomb magnet and a pain to keep clean anyway. Only some stock built to LNER Gresley designs received brown paint, for example, a bunch of BG's actually built during the war, that were turned out with plywood rather than teak paneling and also a batch with steel paneling. I don't have any evidence of steel carriages that were originally painted teak being painted plain brown after the War. There is plenty of evidence of the teak finish being retained. The banks photo shows a carriage that has been repainted but in an Austerity version of painted teak with perhaps a single pass of the scumble. You can tell this because of the lack of pre War class numbers on the doors. Incidentally, the carriage is not lined out.

 

 

At the end of the day it's your carriage, you can do what you want with it, by 1953, it would probably be crimson and cream anyway. If you were to ask me what I thought as being the historically correct livery, then the finish in the Banks photo would be most likely and plain brown not very likely. Carriages didn't receive a full repaint unless absolutely necessary during the War.

 

As for the painting technique, it's not that hard. A bit of Masking, a bit of dirt wash, allow to dry a while then remove the excess with a cotton bud, leaving dirt around the edge of the masking tape and around the edge of the door furniture. I thought you had an airbrush? You could mask of and spray lightly along the edge, I often do.

It’s the third coach in this picture which I’m trying to recreate.

 

 

I don’t have the copyright, but here is a low res copy for ‘research‘ purposes. I will remove if requested.

 

It’s clearly not blood and custard! It probably is in fake teak - there is some sort of horizontal line along the side. 
 

I do have an airbrush but I’m not a fan. I’ve only used it three times including two hours this morning battling with the bl...y thing trying to weather my K3. It continually blocks and I must have stripped it down 10 times before I got the job done. I’m much happier with a paintbrush! I think I might give your masking idea a go on one side and Jonathan’s scribing idea on the other side. I might as well see which works best for me. 

[Headstock]

58 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

It’s the third coach in this picture which I’m trying to recreate.

 

 

I don’t have the copyright, but here is a low res copy for ‘research‘ purposes. I will remove if requested.

 

It’s clearly not blood and custard! It probably is in fake teak - there is some sort of horizontal line along the side. 
 

I do have an airbrush but I’m not a fan. I’ve only used it three times including two hours this morning battling with the bl...y thing trying to weather my K3. It continually blocks and I must have stripped it down 10 times before I got the job done. I’m much happier with a paintbrush! I think I might give your masking idea a go on one side and Jonathan’s scribing idea on the other side. I might as well see which works best for me. 

 

Evening Andy,

 

are you certain that carriage number three is a dia. 190? Do you have any more photographs of dia. 190 or the train? 

[thegreenhowards]

6 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

are you certain that carriage number three is a dia. 190? Do you have any more photographs of dia. 190 or the train? 

Evening Andrew,

Not 100% certain. But the carriage workings say that it should be a D.190 and it has the right number of windows and doors in the right positions. It is part of a steel quintuple set (I.e. flanked by BTK-TK twins either side) and that’s how they worked until the D.190s were replaced by Thompson or Mk 1 CKs. It’s possible that it’s a Thompson CK but I can’t see any sign of the oval window. What do you think it is?

 

Andy

[Headstock]

17 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Evening Andrew,

Not 100% certain. But the carriage workings say that it should be a D.190 and it has the right number of windows and doors in the right positions. It is part of a steel quintuple set (I.e. flanked by BTK-TK twins either side) and that’s how they worked until the D.190s were replaced by Thompson or Mk 1 CKs. It’s possible that it’s a Thompson CK but I can’t see any sign of the oval window. What do you think it is?

 

Andy

 

The carriage in the photo looks like it could be teak bodied. It seems to have ventilation hoods rather than door lights, turnbuckle rather than deep angle iron, as on the leading twin and beading on the body side. GE 52'6'' compo, such as Jonathans below?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=52'+6''+gresley+coach&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiy7_P5pN3sAhUW4RoKHSd4Cp8Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=52'+6''+gresley+coach&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1Dg3gxY4IINYPuFDWgAcAB4AIAB8QGIAb8HkgEFMS41LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=YYmcX_K6ApbCa6fwqfgJ&bih=1095&biw=1920#imgrc=m9ySuqBYiEYgeM

Edited October 30, 2020 by Headstock

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

It’s the third coach in this picture which I’m trying to recreate.

 

 

I don’t have the copyright, but here is a low res copy for ‘research‘ purposes. I will remove if requested.

 

It’s clearly not blood and custard! It probably is in fake teak - there is some sort of horizontal line along the side. 
 

I do have an airbrush but I’m not a fan. I’ve only used it three times including two hours this morning battling with the bl...y thing trying to weather my K3. It continually blocks and I must have stripped it down 10 times before I got the job done. I’m much happier with a paintbrush! I think I might give your masking idea a go on one side and Jonathan’s scribing idea on the other side. I might as well see which works best for me. 

Andy, if your airbrush continually blocks it is probably one of two things,

 

1) the paint isn't properly stirred - answer get a battery powered stirrer as sold by the likes of Badger, or

 

2) the paint is too thick, add a bit more thiners to get something like skimmed milk, and stir the proverbial out of it so it is properly mixed!

 

Could also be a bit of both.

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

32 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

The carriage in the photo looks like it could be teak bodied. It seems to have ventilation hoods rather than door lights, turnbuckle rather than deep angle iron, as on the leading twin and beading on the body side. GE 52'6'' compo, such as Jonathans below?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=52'+6''+gresley+coach&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiy7_P5pN3sAhUW4RoKHSd4Cp8Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=52'+6''+gresley+coach&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1Dg3gxY4IINYPuFDWgAcAB4AIAB8QGIAb8HkgEFMS41LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=YYmcX_K6ApbCa6fwqfgJ&bih=1095&biw=1920#imgrc=m9ySuqBYiEYgeM

That looks plausible....if very frustrating having built the D.190 for the train! It would have made the train very short of first class seats. Only 2 compartments in a GE shortie compared to four in a D.190. The first five coaches went to Peterborough with the remainder of the train for Cambridge.

[thegreenhowards]

2 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Andy, if your airbrush continually blocks it is probably one of two things,

 

1) the paint isn't properly stirred - answer get a battery powered stirrer as sold by the likes of Badger, or

 

2) the paint is too thick, add a bit more thiners to get something like skimmed milk, and stir the proverbial out of it so it is properly mixed!

 

Could also be a bit of both.

 

John.

In this case it was a combination of three other factors:

1. The paint was rather old and had bits in it - I only realised this when trying to clean them out;

2. It’s a cheap Chinese airbrush; and 

3.  Probably most significantly, I hadn’t replaced a part properly after cleaning it last time!

All my own fault to an extent, but still a deeply frustrating experience. You don’t get these problems with a paintbrush, but on the plus side, I’m pleased with the weathered look.

 

[Headstock]

18 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

That looks plausible....if very frustrating having built the D.190 for the train! It would have made the train very short of first class seats. Only 2 compartments in a GE shortie compared to four in a D.190. The first five coaches went to Peterborough with the remainder of the train for Cambridge.

 

It just doesn't match the twins either side of it. The dia. 190 is probably in works getting a repaint (c/c). Another aspect of teak bodied carriages, one that is possibly visible in the photo, is the light band beneath the corridor windows and above the commode handles. This is caused by light reflecting of the sides, that is cut off short by the top beading strip on the horizontal panels.

 

14 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

In this case it was a combination of three other factors:

1. The paint was rather old and had bits in it - I only realised this when trying to clean them out;

2. It’s a cheap Chinese airbrush; and 

3.  Probably most significantly, I hadn’t replaced a part properly after cleaning it last time!

All my own fault to an extent, but still a deeply frustrating experience. You don’t get these problems with a paintbrush, but on the plus side, I’m pleased with the weathered look.

 

 

Or you haven't cleaned it out properly, perhaps the biggest single issue encountered by airbrush newbies.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Headstock
add word

[thegreenhowards]

24 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

It just doesn't match the twins either side of it. The dia. 190 is probably in works getting a repaint (c/c). Another aspect of teak bodied carriages, one that is possibly visible in the photo, is the light band beneath the corridor windows and above the commode handles. This is caused by light reflecting of the sides, that is cut off short by the top beading strip on the horizontal panels.

 

 

 

I agree. It’s good to learn the tricks of an expert carriage spotter. I find it takes a long time to get my eyes tuned into to spotting coach diagrams in photos. 
 

I think I’ll just have to assume that the train had the ‘correct’ formation on another day when the Atlantics worked it. 
 

 

24 minutes ago, Headstock said:

Or you haven't cleaned it out properly, perhaps the biggest single issue encountered by airbrush newbies.

Possibly, but I cleaned it to the best of my abilities - it took ages. This airbrush was so cheap (£12) that if I had to spend any longer, I’d just chuck it away and buy another!

[Tony Teague]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Possibly, but I cleaned it to the best of my abilities - it took ages. This airbrush was so cheap (£12) that if I had to spend any longer, I’d just chuck it away and buy another!

 

I took two cheap airbrushes (plus one better one) along to my first weathering course at Missenden Abbey a few years ago and the excellent tutor, Mick Bonwick, took one look and suggested I throw the two of them in the bin - which I did!

I had spent some time trying to master airbrushing with one of these two, and failed, but never taken the better one out of its box.

Now having learned how to use and clean it properly, if I get a problem it is with paint, not the airbrush - too thick, or too old with bits in etc, as John Tomlinson has observed above.

My advice - put it in the bin!

Tony

Edited October 31, 2020 by Tony Teague

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

I took two cheap airbrushes (plus one better one) along to my first weathering course at Missenden Abbey a few years ago and the excellent tutor, Mick Bonwick, took one look and suggested I throw the two of them in the bin - which I did!

I had spent some time trying to master airbrushing with one of these two, and failed, but never taken the better one out of its box.

Now having learned how to use and clean it properly, if I get a problem it is with paint, not the airbrush - too thick, or too old with bits in etc, as John Tomlinson has observed above.

My advice - put it in the bin!

Tony

Tony,

 

You’re probably right, although from what I can see this airbrush is indistinguishable from an Iwata dual action version. My logic for buying a cheap one to start with was that I will probably mess the first airbrush up by not cleaning it properly or similar and I may not take to the whole process at all - my patience is limited as you know and I hate all the faff around airbrushing.

 

So my plan if attack was:

1. Buy a cheap one and try outside with no safety kit and a borrowed compressor to see how it works.

2. Buy extractor spray booth and mask and try in garage.

3. Go on a course.

4. Splash out on an expensive airbrush and compressor.

 

I have achieved 1. (the A4 and C2 in the summer). And 2 (yesterday weathering the K3). When it works it seems to work very well although I don’t know what a top quality one would feel like. I think I need to try 2. again to see if it works better if I remember to put the airbrush together properly and use decent paint!

 

I’m inclined to stick to this course of action and if my repeat of 2. works I can move onto 3. and 4.

 

Andy

 

PS. I did Mick’s weathering course at the virtual Missenden weekend two weeks ago. He is clearly a master of the art and I’m trying to apply his technique on the K3

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[Tony Teague]

Andy

In fact I think one of my two cheap airbrushes came free with a subscription to a magazine - so it really was cheap!

Tony

[thegreenhowards]

8 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

Andy

In fact I think one of my two cheap airbrushes came free with a subscription to a magazine - so it really was cheap!

Tony

That’s my kind of price!

[John Tomlinson]

51 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

That’s my kind of price!

Whilst the quality of machining in the airbrush is obviously vital, I'm bound to say that I have used a Chinese "cheapy" copy (from Machine Mart) quite happily, this being a double action job I used on weathering. No doubt some are rubbish, some however not. The compressor I bought some years ago, an AS186 with reserve tank, came delivered to my door from around the globe for around £80 and is still going strong, moreover it came with two more airbrushes that I haven't needed to use yet!

 

My normal kit is a Badger 200 bought way back in the last century, which has had a new head and needle (if not two), but still works fine. The main problem I seem to find is that the white ring behind the head which is meant to make an airtight seal loses its effectiveness, probably due to the effect of cleaning with cellulose thinner, and instead of replacing like for like I've started using plumbers PTFE tape, which so far seems to work fine.

 

As you've discovered Andy, paint does deteriorate with age even if stored well. There used to be a piece of advice on the lines of "always spray with a new tin", not great for those of us with a thrifty nature, but probably sound. I do try to do this if I'm spraying a big batch, and use the remains for touching up with a brush. It is disconcerting that you can stir old paint thoroughly and it looks fine to the eye, but still won't airbrush properly.

 

If you ever get really stuck with an unclean airbrush, your best bet is to remove the head and needle, and soak the former in cellulose thinner, which will do for most paint, just don't leave any plastic seals attached. You can carefully wipe the needle with a rag soaked in same.

 

As you note, a hairy brush is a lot easier, but I'll take my hat off to you if the finish comes anywhere near that achievable from an airbrush.

 

John.

[Headstock]

5 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

That’s my kind of price!

 

Skinflint,

 

all that money you spend on kits and polluting the planet with rattle cans in a year! 

 

5 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

You’re probably right, although from what I can see this airbrush is indistinguishable from an Iwata dual action version. My logic for buying a cheap one to start with was that I will probably mess the first airbrush up by not cleaning it properly or similar and I may not take to the whole process at all - my patience is limited as you know and I hate all the faff around airbrushing.

 

So my plan if attack was:

1. Buy a cheap one and try outside with no safety kit and a borrowed compressor to see how it works.

2. Buy extractor spray booth and mask and try in garage.

3. Go on a course.

4. Splash out on an expensive airbrush and compressor.

 

I have achieved 1. (the A4 and C2 in the summer). And 2 (yesterday weathering the K3). When it works it seems to work very well although I don’t know what a top quality one would feel like. I think I need to try 2. again to see if it works better if I remember to put the airbrush together properly and use decent paint!

 

I’m inclined to stick to this course of action and if my repeat of 2. works I can move onto 3. and 4.

 

Andy

 

PS. I did Mick’s weathering course at the virtual Missenden weekend two weeks ago. He is clearly a master of the art and I’m trying to apply his technique on the K3

 

 

 

False economy,

 

you sound like the kind of guy who would tie plastic bags to his feet in order to see if buying shoes was worth the money. Then, having slipped on his arse a couple of times, decided shoes were not for them. Cheap airbrushes are a waste of time and money, however, you don't need an expensive one for most model railway work. Iwata for example, are far to expensive for what you require, they are also harder and more costly to maintain than some other brands.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

As far as I’m concerned far too much value is placed on expensive brands these days. Plastic bags are out for me but so are Nike trainers.

 

As for airbrushes, I’m not convinced that there’s anything wrong wrong with the airbrush I’ve bought. The problems seem to have come from my use of it and I’m learning on the job. When it works it seems to do a good job. I think an incremental approach is sensible, especially for something that I’m not sure I’ll take to.
 

If you have the money to go out and blow on expensive brands which may rarely be used then be my guest!
 

In any event, let’s not fall out over this.

 

Andy