Coulsdon Works

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’ll keep you posted on mine. 
 

I agree that the immediately post war period is under represented. I suspect because film was still difficult to come by so there is little photographic evidence and austerity made it all a bit drab and dirty.

 

 

 

Evening Andy,

 

I think that is a bit of a cliched view. In fact there was a comparative explosion of railway photography, after the restrictions of the War. There is a great deal of photographic evidence, as you call it, that records the era. However, it is of little interest to a hobby dominated by nostalgia rather than history. I always say, ''there is a photograph for everything, if you are prepared to look for it''.

 

The post War steam railway photographic archives are under represented in the popular railway publications, as they are selling to the train spotter steam fans of the late fifties early sixties, or a smaller group of pre war fans of the late thirties. What is presented is very much led  by what is regarded as popular, rather than expressed in a historical context .

 

I reject the notion of drabness, in the post war period. There was more colour in a single panel of teak, or a gaggle of Duchesses, than all the liveries of the late fifties early sixties railway put together, that was truly drab in my opinion. Mouldy green and Maroon, with orange trim? I would hope your Misses would never let you out of the house if you were wearing such a clothing combination!

Edited November 5, 2020 by Headstock
add space

[thegreenhowards]

14 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

I think that is a bit of a cliched view. In fact there was a comparative explosion of railway photography, after the restrictions of the War. There is a great deal of photographic evidence, as you call it, that records the era. However, it is of little interest to a hobby dominated by nostalgia rather than history. I always say, ''there is a photograph for everything, if you are prepared to look for it''.

 

The post War steam railway photographic archives are under represented in the popular railway publications, as they are selling to the train spotter steam fans of the late fifties early sixties, or a smaller group of pre war fans of the late thirties. What is presented is very much led  by what is regarded as popular, rather than expressed in a historical context .

 

I reject the notion of drabness, in the post war period. There was more colour in a single panel of teak, or a gaggle of Duchesses, than all the liveries of the late fifties early sixties railway put together, that was truly drab in my opinion. Mouldy green and Maroon, with orange trim? I would hope your Misses would never let you out of the house if you were wearing such a clothing combination!

It probably is a cliched view, but like most cliches there’s some truth in it.

 

I certainly struggle to find photos of that era; particularly colour photos. There are some, but far fewer than later or pre-war. I know you have a good library but sadly I have to rely on books.

 

I love teak livery but it was better before the war with lining and cleaner coaches. Black locos with NE on the side doesn’t float my boat - nor do Duchesses but that’s another story! I rather like Green and maroon livery - not as good as clean lined teak but still pretty smart....and easier to model! My missus probably wouldn’t let me out in varnished teak either - unless she was burying me and I don't want to encourage that!

 

And I’m even more fond of early BR ‘QPR’ livery - blue locos with white hoops.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

It probably is a cliched view, but like most cliches there’s some truth in it.

 

I certainly struggle to find photos of that era; particularly colour photos. There are some, but far fewer than later or pre-war. I know you have a good library but sadly I have to rely on books.

 

I love teak livery but it was better before the war with lining and cleaner coaches. Black locos with NE on the side doesn’t float my boat - nor do Duchesses but that’s another story! I rather like Green and maroon livery - not as good as clean lined teak but still pretty smart....and easier to model! My missus probably wouldn’t let me out in varnished teak either - unless she was burying me and I don't want to encourage that!

 

And I’m even more fond of early BR ‘QPR’ livery - blue locos with white hoops.

 

Andy

 

 

 

Evening Andy,

 

It's the conclusions that you are drawing from limited source materials that distorts you view. For example, the view that the post war period is under represented in the photographic record, is  because photography of railways was rare. This is not true, there is not even some truth in this. If you are drawing conclusions based on the photography in books, you have to recognise that the source material is biased. What you should be saying, is that the post War period is under represented in books. This is true, it represents the bias of the author who is picking pictures for their books, rather than a genuine bias in the photographic record. 

 

How do I know? My own bias is for that post war period, so I have been able to source all that I require of that time, while turning a selective blind eye to the nostalgia era. If I was producing books, the train spotter generation would cry and scream and complain about the lack of LFES material and probably demand a recount. 

[John Tomlinson]

I always thought that colour film was virtually unobtainable in the UK for private use until the mid 1950's. When it became available it was very expensive, and comparitively black and white was much cheaper, with those doing photography in the main doing their own processing.

 

Even B&W film would have been quite expensive in comparison to wage levels, and cameras certainly were. Even when I got my first SLR in 1975, a reasonable quality Yashica, the price tag of £75 at a nascent Jessops was still a lot of money for the time.

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

7 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

It's the conclusions that you are drawing from limited source materials that distorts you view. For example, the view that the post war period is under represented in the photographic record, is  because photography of railways was rare. This is not true, there is not even some truth in this. If you are drawing conclusions based on the photography in books, you have to recognise that the source material is biased. What you should be saying, is that the post War period is under represented in books. This is true, it represents the bias of the author who is picking pictures for their books, rather than a genuine bias in the photographic record. 

 

How do I know? My own bias is for that post war period, so I have been able to source all that I require of that time, while turning a selective blind eye to the nostalgia era. If I was producing books, the train spotter generation would cry and scream and complain about the lack of LFES material and probably demand a recount. 

Perhaps you should produce a book. I, for one, would buy it. What is LFES?

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Perhaps you should produce a book. I, for one, would buy it. What is LFES?

 

Late Fifties Early Sixties.

 

Books are really hard and time consuming to produce, especially as a quality item and bound to cost plenty of, rather than make any money. I would rather put my research into a making a model.

 

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

I always thought that colour film was virtually unobtainable in the UK for private use until the mid 1950's. When it became available it was very expensive, and comparitively black and white was much cheaper, with those doing photography in the main doing their own processing.

 

Even B&W film would have been quite expensive in comparison to wage levels, and cameras certainly were. Even when I got my first SLR in 1975, a reasonable quality Yashica, the price tag of £75 at a nascent Jessops was still a lot of money for the time.

 

John.

 

Yet the photographic record is rich, or are you suggesting it has been faked?

 

The thing is, what you are saying maybe true. However, as I said to Andy, that shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that railway photography was rare, it wasn't.

 

Lots of ex MOD material going cheap on the black market, or a gaggle of rich photographers, who knows? For those who would wish to research it properly, I'm sure that the surviving availability of railway photography from the period and the proposed cost of unobtanium, are obviously not mutually exclusive.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Headstock
add y add,

[thegreenhowards]

On 03/11/2020 at 19:49, Headstock said:

 

Brave heart Andy,

 

would you prefer a sycophant?

 

The first 65 V2's had the low fronted tender, with set back front bulkhead and tool boxes mounted atop and deep cut-outs to the coping plate and side sheets, as on your model. This was identical to that in the last K3's.

 

 

Ironically, from 60866 onwards, the V2's were outshopped with tenders with high fronted steped bulkheads, mounted further forwards but taller than the coping plate. They had cupboard door style tool boxes mounted low down either side of the shovelling plate. They required a smaller cut out in the coping plate and side sheet as seen on 4843 below.

 

 

 

The original 20 low fronted tenders were swapped around between other locomotives during their careers. I would be interested in seeing the picture you refer too, as I only have photographs of the high fronted type coupled to 60866, in BR lined black with spindly creature.

 

Green Arrow had a high fronted tender for most of its BR condition. The current low fronted tender was paired with the locomotive during preservation, in order restore it to as built condition. Anachronistically, it retrains the post war pony truck and modified front frame arrangement.

 

Further to this, I’m determined to use the tender I have especially as I’ve fitted pick ups to it. So I’m now searching for a suitable loco to renumber mine to. But It’s a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack as there were only 20 of them in a class of 184 engines. It’s not always clear from photos which tender they have, especially if the driver is leaning out on a front 3/4 view.
 

However, I’ve found a couple of potential candidates, 60815 and 60912 (p54 and 60 of the Power of the V2s). I’m minded to go for 60815 as it was a Doncaster engine from ‘51 to ‘55 which should give me some excuses to use it. Can anyone paint me towards any other photos of either engine as I’d like to check how long they kept the low fronted tender?
 

Andy

[65179]

60815 and 60912 both had small cutout tenders by the late 50s/early 60s:

60815 in 1961 (same condition as 1960 view on Colour Rail site):

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p930490054/hc49c2650

 

60912 in 1959 (scroll down):

https://prorail.co.uk/ersteamaed.htm

 

Simon

[John Tomlinson]

21 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Late Fifties Early Sixties.

 

Books are really hard and time consuming to produce, especially as a quality item and bound to cost plenty of, rather than make any money. I would rather put my research into a making a model.

 

 

Yet the photographic record is rich, or are you suggesting it has been faked?

 

The thing is, what you are saying maybe true. However, as I said to Andy, that shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that railway photography was rare, it wasn't.

 

Lots of ex MOD material going cheap on the black market, or a gaggle of rich photographers, who knows? For those who would wish to research it properly, I'm sure that the surviving availability of railway photography from the period and the proposed cost of unobtanium, are obviously not mutually exclusive.

Andrew,

 

No I'm certainly not suggesting that it has been faked.

 

I'm simply observing that I've seen little colour photography from the ten years after WW2, and advanced an explanation for this, being physical availability and also price. The only person I've met with colour pictures from that time was a man called Jim Jarvis, with whom I had the pleasure of participating in a trip around South Africa nearly 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure he's now passed, his was the younger brother of Ron, mastermind behind the rebuild programme of the Bulleid Pacifics, and obtained his colour film on a business trip to the USA sometime after the War - fortunately he had the sense to bring back a  stock. Later in the '50's the likes of R.C. Riley also shot colour material and I assume that for those with the money physical availability started to occur in the mid '50's.

 

I didn't know about MOD surplus, and what type of film and material this was, nor that it was made available.

 

Clearly B&W photography on an official basis carried on throughout, taken by Railway Works and other Manufacturers, and obviously a number of private individuals for whom the price was not a barrier, neither film nor equipment.

 

John.

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Andrew,

 

No I'm certainly not suggesting that it has been faked.

 

I'm simply observing that I've seen little colour photography from the ten years after WW2, and advanced an explanation for this, being physical availability and also price. The only person I've met with colour pictures from that time was a man called Jim Jarvis, with whom I had the pleasure of participating in a trip around South Africa nearly 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure he's now passed, his was the younger brother of Ron, mastermind behind the rebuild programme of the Bulleid Pacifics, and obtained his colour film on a business trip to the USA sometime after the War - fortunately he had the sense to bring back a  stock. Later in the '50's the likes of R.C. Riley also shot colour material and I assume that for those with the money physical availability started to occur in the mid '50's.

 

I didn't know about MOD surplus, and what type of film and material this was, nor that it was made available.

 

Clearly B&W photography on an official basis carried on throughout, taken by Railway Works and other Manufacturers, and obviously a number of private individuals for whom the price was not a barrier, neither film nor equipment.

 

John.

 

Evening John,

 

No I'm certainly not suggesting that it has been faked.

I wasn't being serious, I don't see you as a tin hatted conspiracy nut.

 

I'm simply observing that I've seen little colour photography from the ten years after WW2.

I don't doubt you. However, consider this. I have never mentioned anything about colour photography, nor did Andy in the original post that I challenged. Rather, it was introduced in a later post as an attempt to move the goal posts, it was this that you have picked up on. 

Colour photography is irrelevant to the point that was being challenged, the proposition being that there was ''little photographic evidence'' from the post War period, because of the rarity of film. I'm unclear how either point can be true, given the existence of a robust photographic record, The proposition is later said to be proven by it being ''under represented''. The latter is true but importantly, not for the reason postulated. 

 

 I didn't know about MOD surplus, and what type of film and material this was, nor that it was made available.

I could have just as easily said, ''washed up on a beach'' you have excised the important bits, ''who knows? and ''research it properly''...…. I must underline the fact that the photographic record exist, film etc must have come from somewhere. Proper research would reveal the story. The most important thing to say is, to those who would wish to model the era, there is no holes in the photographic record and a rich supply of documentation as well. Don't be put off by biased sources.
 

[Headstock]

22 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Further to this, I’m determined to use the tender I have especially as I’ve fitted pick ups to it. So I’m now searching for a suitable loco to renumber mine to. But It’s a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack as there were only 20 of them in a class of 184 engines. It’s not always clear from photos which tender they have, especially if the driver is leaning out on a front 3/4 view.
 

However, I’ve found a couple of potential candidates, 60815 and 60912 (p54 and 60 of the Power of the V2s). I’m minded to go for 60815 as it was a Doncaster engine from ‘51 to ‘55 which should give me some excuses to use it. Can anyone paint me towards any other photos of either engine as I’d like to check how long they kept the low fronted tender?
 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

I only have images of the two locomotives mentioned, in BR lined black plus spindle creature and with the high fronted tender type. The tender changes must have taken place before the LFES period. What year are you modelling? Other options are available.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

5 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

I only have images of the two locomotives mentioned, in BR lined black plus spindle creature and with the high fronted tender type. The tender changes must have taken place before the LFES period. What year are you modelling? Other options are available.

I model from ‘48-‘62 but with a bias towards the end of that period....your dreaded LFES! That’s mainly so I can run diesels which I have a soft spot for.
 

However, as this is in black with early crest, I’m looking for a candidate from the early to mid ‘50s (Say ‘51-‘58). Any loco which could conceivably be running on the south end of the GN in this period would do. So Probably Doncaster, New England or Top Shed. The picture I have of 60815 has no visible crest on the tender. It claims to be ‘52, but the train is mainly in teak which makes me think it’s rather earlier than that.

 

Any suggestions you can give me would be much appreciated.
 

Andy

[65179]

60818 before its move to Scotland? 

 

On the subject of the photographic record, I agree with Andrew that many of the available books skew the coverage and that there is lots of earlier stuff out there which only features in the more interesting books.

However, there's still the inevitable biases to namers and 3/4 views to contend with. The picture is very mixed. It may be fine for the pretty bit of the GCLE or busy traffic centres, but away from them you are hoping that a schoolboy had a camera and the inclination, a new railway employee spent their hard-earned on a camera, there was a local newspaper photographer with a penchant for railways or that one of the gentleman photographers deigned to visit 'your' station.  I've gained access to a number of collections expecting to find the unprinted gem with that bit of info I need only to discover the photographer in question really did only take a few snaps on his local station despite all the interest (to me) to be found there. That tends to manifest itself as umpteen photos of the same train and nothing of the daily shunt etc.  We are so fortunate that anything has survived, and that modern communication makes so much of it accessible, but it's a stretch to say that all you need is there for the level of detail that many of us aspire to.

 

Simon

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I model from ‘48-‘62 but with a bias towards the end of that period....your dreaded LFES! That’s mainly so I can run diesels which I have a soft spot for.
 

However, as this is in black with early crest, I’m looking for a candidate from the early to mid ‘50s (Say ‘51-‘58). Any loco which could conceivably be running on the south end of the GN in this period would do. So Probably Doncaster, New England or Top Shed. The picture I have of 60815 has no visible crest on the tender. It claims to be ‘52, but the train is mainly in teak which makes me think it’s rather earlier than that.

 

Any suggestions you can give me would be much appreciated.
 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

Mainly teak carriages in 52, nothing strange about that, they were the majority type of carriage. Thompson carriages were always a minority and MK1 production didn't really ramp up until much later than is often appreciated.

 

The low fronted tenders seem to have gravitated to Scottish allocated V2's over a period of time. They seem to be in higher numbers as expressed as percentage of the local allocation. However as far as allocations to the southern end of the ECML, in lined black and etc, you are probably talking 1950 to 54 as a consistent period. The most obvious locomotive is Top sheds top engine, Green Arrow itself. 60800 was always quite nicely turned out and Widley used. You also have the correct valve guide, for the two to one gear, already fitted to your model for that period.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p930490054

 

If you want something to squirt muck at, how about 60820, you would have to change the valve guide and of course check out the smokebox door for each.

 

https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p414240567/h420ABBB8#h420abbba

 

Oddly, I require a low fronted tender for 60847 AD, if I build anything more.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-post-grouping-locomotives/LNER-4-6-0s-and-prairies/i-DxJTHcJ/A

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Headstock
add info on valve guide 60800

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

60818 before its move to Scotland? 

 

On the subject of the photographic record, I agree with Andrew that many of the available books skew the coverage and that there is lots of earlier stuff out there which only features in the more interesting books.

However, there's still the inevitable biases to namers and 3/4 views to contend with. The picture is very mixed. It may be fine for the pretty bit of the GCLE or busy traffic centres, but away from them you are hoping that a schoolboy had a camera and the inclination, a new railway employee spent their hard-earned on a camera, there was a local newspaper photographer with a penchant for railways or that one of the gentleman photographers deigned to visit 'your' station.  I've gained access to a number of collections expecting to find the unprinted gem with that bit of info I need only to discover the photographer in question really did only take a few snaps on his local station despite all the interest (to me) to be found there. That tends to manifest itself as umpteen photos of the same train and nothing of the daily shunt etc.  We are so fortunate that anything has survived, and that modern communication makes so much of it accessible, but it's a stretch to say that all you need is there for the level of detail that many of us aspire to.

 

Simon

 

Evening Simon,

 

you just need to look harder. If not there are other ways of finding out about the daily shunt.

[65179]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Simon,

 

you just need to look harder. If not there are other ways of finding out about the daily shunt.

 

20 years is probably long enough

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

Mainly teak carriages in 52, nothing strange about that, they were the majority type of carriage. Thompson carriages were always a minority and MK1 production didn't really ramp up until much later than is often appreciated.

 

When I said teak, I meant teak livery. In fact the train seems to be 3 Thompsons and 6 Gresleys with 4 indistinct towards the back. Of these only one coach in Blood and custard and the rest in teak. I would have expected more blood and custard by 1952 - is that wrong?

 

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

The low fronted tenders seem to have gravitated to Scottish allocated V2's over a period of time. They seem to be in higher numbers as expressed as percentage of the local allocation. However as far as allocations to the southern end of the ECML, in lined black and etc, you are probably talking 1950 to 54 as a consistent period. The most obvious locomotive is Top sheds top engine, Green Arrow itself. 60800 was always quite nicely turned out and Widley used. You also have the correct valve guide, for the two to one gear, already fitted to your model for that period.
 

I noticed the Scottish tendency when I was looking through my books.

 

As for Green Arrow, it would be easier and nice to have an excuse for a shiny one. But I tend to steer away from the cliches. No Mallard or Flying Scotsman on Gresley Jn! One to think about.

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p930490054

 

If you want something to squirt muck at, how about 60820, you would have to change the valve guide and of course check out the smokebox door for each.

 

https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p414240567/h420ABBB8#h420abbba
 

Thanks. That sounds like a good bet, although I’ll have to do some research to work out what the valve guide issue is!

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Oddly, I require a low fronted tender for 60847 AD, if I build anything more.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-post-grouping-locomotives/LNER-4-6-0s-and-prairies/i-DxJTHcJ/A

 

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

 

20 years is probably long enough

Evening Simon,

 

it took me twenty years, or there about, to locate a photo of the Lutterworth Leicester pick up goods. Finally, I got a bunch of photographs of it being shunted at Leicester South goods. I new it was the Lutterworth, as soon as I saw the photographs. I had not been idle over the years, discovering some of the regular clientele and materials that used the service. One case in point being a manufacture of  horseboxes that regularly sent their products by rail, via the Lutterworth Leicester pick up goods. The archives of the firm still existed, they were able to provide drawings of the types of horse boxes being produced in the 1940s and 50s. One of our members, Derek Shore was able to scratch build the boxes and also sheet and rope them down in the manor recommended to us. 

 

Many years latter, I came across some photographs of shunting at South box. Low and behold, there were the horseboxes in the train, exactly as modelled.

 

Another of the pick up goods was positively identified, from  aerial survey photographs, being prepared in the yard, , that revealed the petrol tankers that were a daily part of that train bound for the Esso depot at Abbey lane.

 

The Lutterworth pick up is now online.

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=148758&search=leicester+south+GC&page=6

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=148848&search=leicester+south+GC&page=6

Edited November 7, 2020 by Headstock
their not there

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, 65179 said:

60818 before its move to Scotland? 

 

On the subject of the photographic record, I agree with Andrew that many of the available books skew the coverage and that there is lots of earlier stuff out there which only features in the more interesting books.

However, there's still the inevitable biases to namers and 3/4 views to contend with. The picture is very mixed. It may be fine for the pretty bit of the GCLE or busy traffic centres, but away from them you are hoping that a schoolboy had a camera and the inclination, a new railway employee spent their hard-earned on a camera, there was a local newspaper photographer with a penchant for railways or that one of the gentleman photographers deigned to visit 'your' station.  I've gained access to a number of collections expecting to find the unprinted gem with that bit of info I need only to discover the photographer in question really did only take a few snaps on his local station despite all the interest (to me) to be found there. That tends to manifest itself as umpteen photos of the same train and nothing of the daily shunt etc.  We are so fortunate that anything has survived, and that modern communication makes so much of it accessible, but it's a stretch to say that all you need is there for the level of detail that many of us aspire to.

 

Simon

Thanks for the 60818 suggestion. I’ll try to find a picture.

[Headstock]

21 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

 

I noticed the Scottish tendency when I was looking through my books.

 

As for Green Arrow, it would be easier and nice to have an excuse for a shiny one. But I tend to steer away from the cliches. No Mallard or Flying Scotsman on Gresley Jn! One to think about.

Thanks. That sounds like a good bet, although I’ll have to do some research to work out what the valve guide issue is!

 

 

When I said teak, I meant teak livery. In fact the train seems to be 3 Thompsons and 6 Gresleys with 4 indistinct towards the back. Of these only one coach in Blood and custard and the rest in teak. I would have expected more blood and custard by 1952 - is that wrong?

 

Doncaster turned out its last varnished teak carriages in 1952. Most agree that the ER was slow to adopt C/C, it didn't stick well to teak and looks kind of terrible. The western division were faster to deploy it on principal expresses, starting very early in 1949 with the Master Cutler. However, my own photo survey that includes 1952, suggests that in ordinary passenger trains, one c/c carriage, was a typical number in gangway five and three sets in that year and 0.4 was typical in non gangway three and four set workings.

 

As for Green Arrow, it would be easier and nice to have an excuse for a shiny one. But I tend to steer away from the cliches. No Mallard or Flying Scotsman on Gresley Jn! One to think about.

 

 Both Green Arrow and Mallard were regarded amongst the best and strongest engines at Top shed. They each dominated their services. Ignoring them as cliched, is twisting history for pure fashion, trendiness and vanity. Regarding them as cliched is the new cliché.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

3 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

When I said teak, I meant teak livery. In fact the train seems to be 3 Thompsons and 6 Gresleys with 4 indistinct towards the back. Of these only one coach in Blood and custard and the rest in teak. I would have expected more blood and custard by 1952 - is that wrong?

 

Doncaster turned out its last varnished teak carriages in 1952. Most agree that the ER was slow to adopt C/C, it didn't stick well to teak and looks kind of terrible. The western division were faster to deploy it on principal expresses, starting very early in 1949 with the Master Cutler. However, my own photo survey that includes 1952, suggests that in ordinary passenger trains, one c/c carriage, was a typical number in gangway five and three sets in that year and 0.4 was typical in non gangway three and four set workings.

 

As for Green Arrow, it would be easier and nice to have an excuse for a shiny one. But I tend to steer away from the cliches. No Mallard or Flying Scotsman on Gresley Jn! One to think about.

 

 Both Green Arrow and Mallard were regarded amongst the best and strongest engines at Top shed. They each dominated their services. Ignoring them as cliched, is twisting history for pure fashion, trendiness and vanity.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the teak info.

 

As for Mallard, I find that a good 25% of A4s seen on layouts are Mallard which is not prototypical. Surely you can’t object to me doing a little bit to correct the balance? Same for Flying Scotsman but Green Arrow is not so bad so I could relent there.

 

 

[Headstock]

39 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks for the teak info.

 

As for Mallard, I find that a good 25% of A4s seen on layouts are Mallard which is not prototypical. Surely you can’t object to me doing a little bit to correct the balance? Same for Flying Scotsman but Green Arrow is not so bad so I could relent there.

 

 

 

Evening Andy,

 

Green Arrow is the most obvious, if you want a locomotive that fulfils your specification and was there at the time, day in day out, doing the job, as opposed to a fly by night, super cool loco with no name or number. A bit of research would probably find the link and the workings for 60800. Having checked a couple of images, it seems to have been consistent in appearance between 1950 and 54 (livery, tender other details). The loco was by no means a band box, just a cared for working engine. There is still plenty of opportunity for subtle weathering.

 

You pose an interesting question, re Mallard. It is not something that is a problem to me generally. As you probably know, I tend to build complete trains, this includes the appropriate locomotive as part of the train. As a result, it matters little to me if the loco is regarded as a cliché or not, if it is the right locomotive for the train, then it is right, it is of greater concern to me if it is the wrong locomotive.

 

The early style valve guide on Green Arrow.

 

 

Later style on the Snapper

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

My Isinglass D78V ex ECJS buffet car Is nearing completion.

 

 

I’m quite pleased with the way it’s come out - I certainly think that the filing down of the end/ side joint has removed that problem.

 

I’m intending it to run in my 1949 Cambridge Buffet Express, but I need to get a few livery details right. I think the solebars should be painted ‘teak’ colour with black footboards which is the next job. Then it will just be some weathering and the interior unless anyone spots other details that I’ve missed.op

 

Andy

 

 

 

[micklner]

Humbrol Leather for the solebar, it is a good match to the Hornby Colour/shade.

[thegreenhowards]

I Just about finished off the D.78V Buffet yesterday.

 

 

I believe this vehicle was unique as there were only three converted from ex ECJS stock with the end windows and AFAIK it was the only one with six small panels as at the left hand end of the top photo. Isinglass cater for all variations but you need to do your research as there were lots of variations. Photos suggest that the kitchen windows were white while those on the corridor side opposite were just obscured which I what I’ve tried to represent.

 

The one thing that I still need to do is to add curtains. I’m trying to work out what colour they should be. Photos show them as a fairly light colour - e.g. 41651 at Donny in 1949 on here. 

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/347-lner-buffet-cars

 

Any suggestions as to colour?

 

Andy

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by thegreenhowards