BluebellModeller Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) Let's try this again! Hello all, I have a personal project relating to the Bachmann Thomas and Friends "Thomas" locomotive available from their US line. "Thomas" is a UK-based design, however, so I thought I'd come here first. Below is a photo of 1.) The model of Thomas from the show Thomas and Friends (which was a kit-bashed Gauge 1 loco) and 2.) The Bachmann Thomas loco (HO scale). I have circled many areas on the TV show model which differ from the Bachmann model. What modeling techniques would you all suggest I use to go about making the model on the bottom look more like the model on the top? I have also included my own observations about what differs to act as an aid. - The front and back of the Bachmann chassis are lacking structural detail that the TV model contains. - The Bachmann funnel is too tall, wide, and lacking the smooth transition to the smokebox that the TV model has.- The Bachmann dome is the incorrect shape, and the red boiler stripes protrude from the boiler rather than being flush.- The Bachmann cab windows are the wrong shape and size. - The side rods are the wrong shape and size. - The Bachmann bunker is missing the lip on the rear and is overall the wrong shape. - Bachmann has a space between the cab door and the running board.- The Bachmann cab door is too thin.- The space between the Bachmann splasher and the side tanks are filled in. - The steam pipes (not sure of correct name) on Bachmann Thomas's front do not reach all the way forward to his smokebox. - The Bachmann smokebox is too vertically large. - The Bachmann water caps protrude too far vertically from the side tanks. - The Bachmann running board is far too thin and misshapen. - The Bachmann cab steps are the wrong size and positioned wrong on the Bachmann footplate. - The Bachmann whistle is the incorrect color and shape. - The Bachmann face is horribly awkward - The Bachmann blue wheel rims are too thin, as are the silver wheel rims and counterweights. - The splasher is incorrectly sized. - The buffers are incorrectly sized and placed on the bufferbeam. And to those whose first thought was to mock me; I hope you get a sliver of joy out of hurting the feelings of strangers online. Thank you to those who are willing to actually help! Edited July 10, 2018 by BluebellModeller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 Four pound lump hammer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Hmmmm. Is it 1st of April. Not sure what to make of the post If you really want an authentic Thomas to run on 16.5mm track you need to Scratch build. Use the LBSC E2 tank drawing and modify as per the Reverend Awdrey books. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Hello Bluebell, I'd guess that your request straddles two quite distinct areas of British Railway modelling. As a general rule, British stuff is in general fidelity-led, whereas Thomas is less so, more facsimile. The common ground here is the track standard IE 16.5mm. Now, here's your (our) problem... Producers turn out some really shoddy 00 gauge stuff, and charge top Dollar. Why? Because Little Johnny wants a Thomas... Despite the fact that Thomas might have rekindled our love affair with trains, they lie as uneasy bedfellows in the retail world. Our second problem now turns to the cost/fidelity angle. If a shoddy Thomas costs as much as a fidelity Bachmann 3F, the parent might ditch the electric train route, and get a plastic push-along train set until the child is old enough to own/operate a train set in its own right. In this world, Dad will baulk at the concept of paying top dollar for really shoddy, low fidelity models, when his entire life has ben geared to accept & appreciate high fidelity product. Even today, mainstream producers will tell you it's 'top line', where the truth may be somewhat less than that. Little wonder, therefore, that stony ground lies between...... If you want an 00 Thomas, which is true to fidelity, then your path is largely a scratch built model. There a few routes to take here, depending on your outcome. The first is the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway, who (as other posters have written) built & operated an E2 tank locomotive. Another route is a Hudswell Clarke tank locomotive, called Thomas, which operates at the Nene Valley Railway. There are quite a few other locomotives dressed up as Thomas, to provide a facsimile of the real thing. By now, the difference between 'fact' & 'facsimile' will not be lost on you. If your desire is a fidelity-driven model of Thomas, some proper research will help you. Despite some humorous (sometimes sarcastic) comments, the great majority of contributors on here are a friendly bunch, and if they know where you want to go, they will point you in the right direction. There is a multitude of armchair driven experts with the knowledge you seek. Choosing the right armchair? You're on your own, sunshine! Cheers, Ian. Edited July 10, 2018 by tomparryharry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 thank you for your help, both of you. Sans the intended humour, which clearly fell flat, Hornby's Thomas was created by altering (irrevocably) the moulds for their earlier LBSCR E2 locomotive. Given that The Rev'd Awdry clearly based Thomas on that prototype, perhaps a Hornby one might be a better starting point for those seeking a more "authentic" Thomas. Of course, that begs the question as to whether you regard Thomas as portrayed in the book or one of the TV incarnations as the real deal...… regards John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Sans the intended humour, which clearly fell flat, Hornby's Thomas was created by altering (irrevocably) the moulds for their earlier LBSCR E2 locomotive. Given that The Rev'd Awdry clearly based Thomas on that prototype, perhaps a Hornby one might be a better starting point for those seeking a more "authentic" Thomas. Of course, that begs the question as to whether you regard Thomas as portrayed in the book or one of the TV incarnations as the real deal...… regards John Frankly, the TV series renditions are laughable - stick to the books and model them as the author intended them to look. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) I cannot see the original pictures you posted, so I am unsure of your desired end state, but I infer you want something closer to the books. Please, though, try not to be petulant just because you don't get the answer you want in the first five minutes; most people here are only too happy to help, in my experience. The Bachmann Thomas Range locos have great running qualities (far better than the Hornby Thomas stuff) but are based on the TV models rather than on the books or the prototypes Rev. Awdry had in mind (and modelled). If your intention was to have a Thomas closer to Awdry's vision of it, the books are a better starting point, but, even there, caution is advisable. The early illustrations could be a bit dodgy. Proportions could be terrible and the appearance of engines could change! Even down to the number of wheels in the case of Henry! IIRC, Thomas may have changed as a result of the repair of his front frame damage. I think this may have left the frames straight, as opposed to curved. Even Rev. Awdry's models were no sure guide; Toby was supposed to be a C53/J70, but was modelled as a G15; Duck, I think, was Gaity Pannier and differed from the books (IIRC one is a 5700 and the other an 8750), and Thomas had more than one model version, IIRC. The best advice, therefore, is that already given above; base it on a LB&SCR E2, with extended tanks. There is a suitable freelance version of this available as a 3D print in 4mm scale: https://www.shapeways.com/product/JJBRWFQ3Y/lb-scr-e2-x-v2-freelance-body-wsf?optionId=57461085 Edited July 10, 2018 by Edwardian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 Try checking out BrendenReis and Zara21King on instagram/twitter, they have made/are making TV series - accurate models for a remake they are filming. Please don’t get in a huff, I do not think that your request was understood properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Frankly, the TV series renditions are laughable - stick to the books and model them as the author intended them to look. Regards, John Isherwood. The original Thomas as used by the Rev. Awdry on his Ffarquhar branch was a cast metal 0-6-0 produced by Essar/Stuart Reidpath and not the Hornby E2. Its appearance in the Railway Modeller December 1959 looks more like a SR G6 locomotive as it had straight footplate sides, not the curved E2 ones. See http://www.sodor-island.net/railwayseries/rm-1959-12.htm . Sans the intended humour, which clearly fell flat, Hornby's Thomas was created by altering (irrevocably) the moulds for their earlier LBSCR E2 locomotive. Given that The Rev'd Awdry clearly based Thomas on that prototype, perhaps a Hornby one might be a better starting point for those seeking a more "authentic" Thomas. Of course, that begs the question as to whether you regard Thomas as portrayed in the book or one of the TV incarnations as the real deal...… regards John I know you might think the original book design is better, but I want to focus on the TVS model here. I've replaced the original post for clarity. Future reference to those OP's: the jokes weren't funny and they made me upset and embarrassed. Thanks to the rest of you! Hopefully with the post restored you can have a better idea of how to help. Edited July 10, 2018 by BluebellModeller 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Hi BluebellModeller This is my adaptation of the Bachmann loco, I've gone more for making it more like a small industrial loco, an impression of Thomas more to my liking than the illustrations in the book and TV shows. The Bachmann loco seems too tall and narrow so I fattened him up with layers of plasticard, then added whitemetal boiler fittings and wire handrails etc. The build thread is here, it's a bit long winded but gets there in the end. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26807-making-do/ Hope this helps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Future reference to those OP's: the jokes weren't funny and they made me upset and embarrassed. If you're going to enjoy being a member of this group, you really do need to get a sense of humour. Having fun and trying to raise a smile is part and parcel of what this group is about. Chill out, and don't take offence so easily - if you can do that you'll be amazed at the help that you'll get. Take umbrage at even the mildest attempt at humour, and people will loose interest in your postings. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited July 10, 2018 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 If you're going to enjoy being a member of this group, you really do need to get a sense of humour. Having fun and trying to raise a smile is part and parcel of what this group is about. Chill out, and don't take offence so easily - if you can do that you'll be amazed at the help that you'll get. Take umbrage at even the mildest attempt at humour, and people will loose interest in your postings. Regards, John Isherwood. Thank you for your feedback. I will consider it in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted July 11, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) I don't think anyone's actually understood the original question. The question is: -How do I modify the Bachmann Thomas to be accurate to the model used in the TV series? The question is not: -How do I make Bachmann Thomas look more realistic? -How do I make a realistic Thomas model? -How do I make Bachmann Thomas into another, more realistic loco? -How do I replicate the model Awdry used? OP: You might find someone's already done it if you look through the model section on SiF: http://sodorislandforums.com/ For the base of the funnel, I think you could possibly build it up using filler (e.g. squadron green putty) and sand it to shape? For the cab opening and side windows, I would suggest careful drilling and then filing using modelling files. Edited July 11, 2018 by Corbs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I don't think anyone's actually understood the original question. The question is: -How do I modify the Bachmann Thomas to be accurate to the model used in the TV series? The question is not: -How do I make Bachmann Thomas look more realistic? -How do I make a realistic Thomas model? -How do I make Bachmann Thomas into another, more realistic loco? -How do I replicate the model Awdry used? OP: You might find someone's already done it if you look through the model section on SiF: http://sodorislandforums.com/ For the base of the funnel, I think you could possibly build it up using filler (e.g. squadron green putty) and sand it to shape? For the cab opening and side windows, I would suggest careful drilling and then filing using modelling files. Rather surprised so many missed that considering the photos posted in the OP. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedGemAlchemist Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) Let's try this again! Hello all, I have a personal project relating to the Bachmann Thomas and Friends "Thomas" locomotive available from their US line. "Thomas" is a UK-based design, however, so I thought I'd come here first. Below is a photo of 1.) The model of Thomas from the show Thomas and Friends (which was a kit-bashed Gauge 1 loco) and 2.) The Bachmann Thomas loco (HO scale). I have circled many areas on the TV show model which differ from the Bachmann model. What modeling techniques would you all suggest I use to go about making the model on the bottom look more like the model on the top? I have also included my own observations about what differs to act as an aid. Screen Shot 2018-07-08 at 4.31.40 PM.png - The front and back of the Bachmann chassis are lacking structural detail that the TV model contains. - The Bachmann funnel is too tall, wide, and lacking the smooth transition to the smokebox that the TV model has. - The Bachmann dome is the incorrect shape, and the red boiler stripes protrude from the boiler rather than being flush. - The Bachmann cab windows are the wrong shape and size. - The side rods are the wrong shape and size. - The Bachmann bunker is missing the lip on the rear and is overall the wrong shape. - Bachmann has a space between the cab door and the running board. - The Bachmann cab door is too thin. - The space between the Bachmann splasher and the side tanks are filled in. - The steam pipes (not sure of correct name) on Bachmann Thomas's front do not reach all the way forward to his smokebox. - The Bachmann smokebox is too vertically large. - The Bachmann water caps protrude too far vertically from the side tanks. - The Bachmann running board is far too thin and misshapen. - The Bachmann cab steps are the wrong size and positioned wrong on the Bachmann footplate. - The Bachmann whistle is the incorrect color and shape. - The Bachmann face is horribly awkward - The Bachmann blue wheel rims are too thin, as are the silver wheel rims and counterweights. - The splasher is incorrectly sized. - The buffers are incorrectly sized and placed on the bufferbeam. And to those whose first thought was to mock me; I hope you get a sliver of joy out of hurting the feelings of strangers online. Thank you to those who are willing to actually help! Well, I'd start by using the face from a recent Hornby Thomas for starts as that's far, far closer to the look he has in the TV series than the very much off Bachmann face, and cutting out the eyes from it to give room for the eye mechanism. If so I'd also try and move the eye mechanism a bit further forwards to close the gap this'd create... Unless you want a Thomas with sunken Emperor Palpatine eyes. It's a small change but one that'd make a dramatic difference, and definitely step you in the correct direction for what is undoubtedly a big task ahead. In fact I'd recommend doing this with all of the Bachmann versions of the classic Thomas cast (the ones that appeared in the books that is) bar Toby and Edward. The Hornby ones are very flawed but the face sculpts are all very good...with the exception of gormless Hornby Toby and the Hornby Edward which while good (unlike the rest of the model...), the Bachmann Edward face is spot on with the exception of the crow's feet at the corners of his eyes. In fact Bachmann Edward is near spot on in general. Hope that helps! Edited July 11, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Try checking out BrendenReis and Zara21King on instagram/twitter, they have made/are making TV series - accurate models for a remake they are filming. Please don’t get in a huff, I do not think that your request was understood properly. I thought it was all CG now, or is this what you are referring to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 There has been I think some useful advice offered but you all need to bear in mind that the OP is 17 so perhaps not appreciative of some tongue in cheek adult humour that others might just brush off... Having said this, a little more explanation of the reason for the rather obscure request might lead to a more sympathetic response. This is after all a request to make a scale model of a fictional loco represented by a kit bashed model..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 I don't think anyone's actually understood the original question. The question is: -How do I modify the Bachmann Thomas to be accurate to the model used in the TV series? The question is not: -How do I make Bachmann Thomas look more realistic? -How do I make a realistic Thomas model? -How do I make Bachmann Thomas into another, more realistic loco? -How do I replicate the model Awdry used? OP: You might find someone's already done it if you look through the model section on SiF: http://sodorislandforums.com/ For the base of the funnel, I think you could possibly build it up using filler (e.g. squadron green putty) and sand it to shape? For the cab opening and side windows, I would suggest careful drilling and then filing using modelling files. Rather surprised so many missed that considering the photos posted in the OP. Exactly, I felt the photos explained it plenty well if there was confusion regarding my words. Ah, well, at least someone understands, There has been I think some useful advice offered but you all need to bear in mind that the OP is 17 so perhaps not appreciative of some tongue in cheek adult humour that others might just brush off... Having said this, a little more explanation of the reason for the rather obscure request might lead to a more sympathetic response. This is after all a request to make a scale model of a fictional loco represented by a kit bashed model..... It's a pet project both to have a piece of nostalgia that I myself created as well as a challenge to build my modeling skillset; nothing more, nothing less than a simple pet project. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) I think the cab window and cab door issues are fairly easily rectified with a small drill and a flat needle file, the black under the tank extension is easily painted on, the coupling rods are probably not worth doing. The bunker will be a complete nightmare to reshape as will the front buffer beam. It is quite possible that 2 X Hornby Thomas 0-4-0 T bodies might be a better starting point than the Bachmann as the front footplate looks more TV like than the Bachmann. The illustrator drew the E2 front end but not the rear so either the front buffers are too low or Thomas had a huge rear buffer beam like a GW 45XX. The whistles will probably have to be made up from scrap bras Glaring errors are the wrong shade of blue and the oversize wheels on the Bachmann look very wrong. The lack of cab fittings is very noticable as the cab is stuffed with motor. I would re wheel and remotor the chassis first so the cab fittings crew and boiler backhead can be modelled. If a convincing Thomas is required, then the illustrations are not a reliable guide. We know Thomas lost his drooping front end when he had an accident somewhere in the first dozen or so books and Rev Awdrey himself modelled Thomas in this condition with a Stewart Reidpath 0-6-0T then an modified Triang Jinty. I have seen 1915 as Thomas's building date so with heavy general overhauls at 10 year or less intervals there can have been little original left by the 1950s when Rev Awdrey wrote about him. I suspect he was mistaken for an E2 because of his extended tanks and stylish drooping front frames, but clearly he was a much smaller engine. Probably an unsuccessful experimental engine as with the very limited depth above the rear axle under the firebox he may well have been built with a marine firebox. He has a very short wheelbase, and little space for cylinders and crank axle. I suspect the cylinders and cranks were not unlike Stroudley "Terrier" and Thomas relied on a high boiler pressure for his power. Those very short connecting rods would have given poor starting torque, and might well explain why Thomas hated shunting and was sent to run a branch, Lowering the boiler pressure and changing to a locomotive type boiler still with a shallow firebox would result in the Thomas of the 1950s albeit that he would have had the flat footplate not the drooping 1915 type normally modelled. Sir Topham Hatt was well known for snapping up a bargain so Thomas was probably very lucky to be bought for Sodor instead of being scrapped for the war effort. Edward seems to have been completely rebuilt with a NER style cab on a Furness Loco, James looks like a GSWR 2-6-0 to me, probably bought from the scrap line at Carlisle Currock in the 1930s, Gordon seems to be the unsucccessful Gresley 1915 4 cyl Pacific and Henry is a real enigma. Henry is supposedly a Black 5 built in 1915. Now that can't be right. He had a bad crash and was rebuilt we know, but what was he originally. I reckon old Jock who worked at NB Loco co had an extra set of HR River bits made by his mates and sneaked them out in the basket of his bicycle after work. They had to make it look a bit different so management didn't twig so when they erected it in Jocks shed on his allotment they straightened the rear footplating and altered the cab a bit to make it look different. The cylinders and valve gear in the illustrations back this up and when he crashed Henry was probably patched up with a Stanier 8F or a tapered number 2A Royal Scot boiler that the LMS / BR were building just post war for retrofitting to the remaining parallel boiler Scots and Patriots. I have been researching the railways of Sodor but sadly detail is sparse. I get that Henry provided cover when Gordon needed repair, like 49 did for Cardean on the CR but I still don't understand what happened when Thomas needed repair, was Daisy kept solely as cover for Thomas? If so how did the the 70 seat Bubble Car cope when Annie and Clarabel could take about 120 passengers? Edited July 12, 2018 by DavidCBroad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) Exactly, I felt the photos explained it plenty well if there was confusion regarding my words. Ah, well, at least someone understands, It's a pet project both to have a piece of nostalgia that I myself created as well as a challenge to build my modeling skillset; nothing more, nothing less than a simple pet project. More power to you in doing that. It is amusing in itself that to model something whimsical, one has to resort to some serious modelling. I recall many years ago a local modeller here in Melbourne chose to make a whimsical layout based on the Emmett cartoons. There was a lot of detailed modelling that went into everything to capture that whimsy ... very successfully too, in my opinion. Personally, I'm not so keen on the TV models, having grown up with the earlier books, but I do know what you mean, having tried (successfully, I hope) to capture the character of the Harry Potter Knight Bus. At least, with that one, I think I did a better job than the commercial model from Corgi. I do agree that when doing anything like this, even 'ordinary' railway modelling, one needs a sense of humour and a reasonably thick skin. Let's face it, the general public have tended to treat all railway modellers and enthusiasts as being somewhat odd, as objects to mock and deride. Edited July 12, 2018 by SRman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedGemAlchemist Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Exactly, I felt the photos explained it plenty well if there was confusion regarding my words. Ah, well, at least someone understands, It's a pet project both to have a piece of nostalgia that I myself created as well as a challenge to build my modeling skillset; nothing more, nothing less than a simple pet project. Always willing to help! I can actually think of a few ways to get a pretty solid result that's probably as close as I can manage to the TV show model considering the HO one would be probably about a quarter of the size. Depends if you want to go with straightforward and high risk like I do or if you want to do something more traditional than the sort of Frankenstein RTRbashing that people like Corbs and myself do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Honestly, I think your mistake is trying to make a OO model of Thomas. If this is for an independent project, why not try to go whole hog and build a Gauge 1 loco in the same way the original was. Im sure you could find reference to what parts they used. The mechanisms were Marklin, and I believe the bodys were scratched from plastic. Wouldnt be the hardest thing in the world, though sourcing a 30 year old Marklin chassis may be difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Trevor, as noted above this is a junior modeller trying to develop some modelling skills on a presumably already owned Bachmann model..... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Trevor, as noted above this is a junior modeller trying to develop some modelling skills on a presumably already owned Bachmann model..... I have noted the age of the poster prior to my comment. No reason not to dream big however. Im not much older than the OP and I was doing similar to him at 17. Ive since quickly spiraled into the largest scenic modelling scale and its honestly a lot easier than working in 4mm scale. While he may still want to go through with the Bachmann modification, and power to him if he does, I was simply offering an alternative as from his post it sounds like what he really would want is a screen accurate model. In my opinion, nothing would scream screen accurate more than a G1 loco. But if the Bachmann model is already owned (not actually mentioned in the post), then I could see the desire to go through with it as originally planned. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 There has been I think some useful advice offered but you all need to bear in mind that the OP is 17 so perhaps not appreciative of some tongue in cheek adult humour that others might just brush off... Having said this, a little more explanation of the reason for the rather obscure request might lead to a more sympathetic response. This is after all a request to make a scale model of a fictional loco represented by a kit bashed model..... The original post didn't sound like it came from a 17 year old. More like some old codger in his 60s reliving his mis spent boy hood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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