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Class 14s with BR where did they operate?


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Many thanks for that link, so a further question would any of the Bristol allocated one's have reached Devon or Cornwall?

Not impossible, but very doubtful.

 

Think about it this way; these locos were primarily intended for duties/diagrams previously undertaken using pannier tanks.

 

It would have been extremely unlikely for a Bristol allocated pannier to have ventured any further west than Taunton, and I'd think even that would have been unusual. 

 

That said, whilst I don't know if it ever happened in reality, the fact that no Class 14's were ever allocated to sheds in the farther West Country doesn't preclude a possibility of the odd one being trialled in the area.

 

That's probably skirting round the edges of Rule One though. By the time they entered traffic, nearly all the remaining work in Devon and Cornwall that might have suited them had already gone over to NBL Type 2s (CL.22).

 

John

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Its a shame this information does not show those that moved on to industrial use after withdrawal.

 

Gordon A

Gordon,

.

Hope this brief summary of D95xx industrial disposals helps

 

D9500, D9502, D9504, D9508,D9511,D9513,D9514,D9517,D9518,D9521,D9525,D9527,D9528, D9531,D9535,D9536,D9540,D9545,D9555  - NCB

D9503, D9507, D9510,D9512,D9515 (later exported to Spain),D9516, D9520, D9523,D9529,D9532,D9533,D9537,D9539,D9541,D9542,D9544,D9547,D9548 (later exported to Spain),D9549 (later exported to Spain), D9551,D9552,D9553, D9554 (power unit later exported to Nigeria)   - Stewarts & Lloyds

D9505, D9534 - Earles Cement (Derbys), then exported to Belgium.

D9524 - BP Chemicals

D9526 - APCM Westbury, also worked at their Dunstable (Beds) works. 

D9530 - Gulf Oil, Waterston, Pembs. later sold to NCB Mardy Colliery, Maerdy.

D9538 - Shell Haven, Stanford-le-Hope, then sold to BSC Ebbw Vale via overhaul at BR Swindon, later transferred to BSC/S&L Corby for spares.

D9543,D9546,D9550 - R.E.Trem, Finningley - believed for the power unit and component recovery, remainder scrapped by C.F.Booth.

 

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Brian R

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Not impossible, but very doubtful.

 

Think about it this way; these locos were primarily intended for duties/diagrams previously undertaken using pannier tanks.

 

They came too late in the day, Had they been around in 1955 then they might have saved some branch lines, but why an 0-6-0?   A 60 mph centre cab B-B in the style of the GE 44 tonners was needed to replace the Panners which could run at 60 mph and more when keeping out of the way of main line trains.   As it was there was a requirement for one class 14 for the Forest of Dean most days and that was about it..

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They came too late in the day, Had they been around in 1955 then they might have saved some branch lines, but why an 0-6-0?   A 60 mph centre cab B-B in the style of the GE 44 tonners was needed to replace the Panners which could run at 60 mph and more when keeping out of the way of main line trains.   As it was there was a requirement for one class 14 for the Forest of Dean most days and that was about it..

Like a Class 17. :jester:, but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. 

 

By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?)

 

One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. 

 

There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard.

 

Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different?

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Many thanks for that link, so a further question would any of the Bristol allocated one's have reached Devon or Cornwall?

 

 

In short - no. 

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Like a Class 17. :jester:, but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. 

 

By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?)

 

One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. 

 

There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard.

 

Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different?

 

John

 

One of the reasons why the SR had the 09s. That slightly higher speed made all the difference.

 

 

 

 

Jason

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One of the reasons why the SR had the 09s. That slightly higher speed made all the difference.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Not to the crew it didn't. A ride quality that is vaguely uncomfortable at 17mph becomes seasickness-inducing at 27..…..

 

Seeing one (after departing the SR) on trip workings between the two yards at Newport reminded me of nothing so much as watching white-water rafting. :jester:

 

John

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Like a Class 17. :jester:, but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. 

 

By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?)

 

One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. 

 

There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard.

 

Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different?

 

John

 

There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The  2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels.  These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50.  I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels.  That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60.

I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them.

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So basically Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol and that surprisingly Great Western outpost of Hull.

 

 

 

The Hull transfer was BR's desperate search for jobs for them to do. I think they realised their mistake soon after the locos entered traffic (or maybe before that), but there were lots of transfer goods trains between the docks and yards in Hull and it seemed like a good idea to move some (which were not bought by industry) where they might do useful work. Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe. 

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There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The  2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels.  These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50.  I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels.  That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60.

I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them.

 

 

I don't think it was as simplistic as that.

 

The centre cab 'switcher' idea had been successful in many countries, and removed the big drawback with the class 08s and 20s, which was the poor visibility when driving bonnet first. 

 

The original idea was quite sound. Sadly the locos' reliability problems and the rapid loss of wagonload traffic to the roads were the main reasons for their demise. 

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The Hull transfer was BR's desperate search for jobs for them to do. I think they realised their mistake soon after the locos entered traffic (or maybe before that), but there were lots of transfer goods trains between the docks and yards in Hull and it seemed like a good idea to move some (which were not bought by industry) where they might do useful work. Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe. 

I remember reading in a magazine that their problem at Hull was insufficient braking ability, which required them to be used in pairs; but since they couldn't run in multiple, they needed two crews. 

 

There is a photo somewhere on the web showing a train hauled by two class 14s and a WD 2-8-0

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There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The  2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels.  These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50.  I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels.  That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60.

I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them.

I would have thought that water capacity (or rather a comparative lack of it) would have ensured that such high jinks would only have been undertaken on a regular basis for short sprints like Swindon-Gloucester, and with locos in tip-top condition. In any case, "mixed traffic" when applied to a Victorian pannier tank meant something very different to the same phrase used in relation to (say) a Hall or even a Manor.

 

My comments related to panniers in the sort of state most were by 1960 when I started to encounter them, rather than the early years (pre-1900) of the 2021 class.

 

The rpm attained by 4ft 1 1/2 in. wheels at 60 mph would have rivalled Mallard at 126 (just done the maths) City of Truro doing the ton. Not something that would have happened on a daily basis. The 5 ft. 2 in classes would definitely do 60 though, as would the 14xx if given their head on a light train.

 

John

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They did seem to have problems stopping trains; they didn't often work loaded trains in the Valleys. BR weren't the only railway to have built locos to cover work that had, or soon would, disappear; SNCF built a class of small B-B called the BB71000. Nicknamed the 'Pedalo', they'd been intended for similar traffic to the 95ers. Their SNCF career was brief, but they found further employment as industrial shunters, and working secondary lines, such as those around Autun; these latter were replaced by 4 EE Class 20s that had worked on the Channel Tunnel.

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Several, if not all the Cardiff Valleys trips still diagrammed for nine-fivers in 1967 became ,Cl.08 jobs as the nine-fiver fleet dwindled. Such places are now all consigned to history e.g. Penarth Cement Works, Ferry Road, Penarth Curve North, Ely Paper Mill, Treforest Trading Estate, Treforest Coal Yard, Stormstown, Gabalfa Coal Yard, Stanton & Staveley, Roath Line Sidings, even Radyr Yard.

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............ Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe.

 

.

Well said that man !

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Robert 'Bob' Masterman has been an active photographer capturing on film the 'everyday' South Wales railway scene since about 1962/1963.

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His images have earned great praise from those privileged to view them.

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This is an example of Bob's work, taken from a DMU near Llandaff (for Whitchurch) on the outskirts of Cardiff on 29th. April, 1966..

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D9522 is waiting for the road, held on the Llandaff Loop, with a mixed freight from Radyr Yard, which needs to cross the Taff vale main line to gain the goods lines at Llandaff.

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The mixture of stock is of interest, a solitary coke hopper and six limestone/iron hoppers could be en-route to Llantrisant, but then further back are several Conflat 'L' wagons used in traffic from Walnut Tree West, possibly bound for Ebbw Vale steel works.

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Radyr Yard can be seen in the distance behind the two brackets, and Radyr Quarry Junction 'box can just be made out above the p.w. hut.

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Radyr shed is just out of shot to the right.

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Behind the left hand telegraph pole can be seen the Radyr Quarry Junction to Penarth Curve North then freight only line, now solely a passenger route and now marketed as the 'City Line'

 

Copyright, Bob Masterman.

post-1599-0-38747100-1531891538_thumb.jpg

Edited by br2975
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