Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Martin S-C]

Hi Martin,

 

I hope you get your condensation problems sorted out. Those concrete panelled garages are always tricky. Don't let it put you off, though. Every worthwhile project has major problems along the way - just look at any episode of Grand Designs.

 

Changing subject, and sorry for putting the Cat among the Pigeons, but, "Green Soudley" never sounds right in my head. "Soudley Green" sounds more comfortable to me but is, of course, a real place. If the initials are important what about, "Great Soudley"?

Hi Phil - and Happy New Year!

 

I went for Great Soudley first of all but then the word Green jumped into my head and I liked it because it sounded rather odd. The Green Man. Pagan fertility cults, and what have you. Dense summer hedgerows. Trees, woodland, living and growing things. The Forest is an odd place; I've visited several times and twice have had odd moments when, if I were one of those more fanciful people, I might be tempted to believe in ghosts or the supernatural. It is just a very strange region, it feels like you pass through a barrier when you enter it and even the 21st century has failed to dissolve that barrier.

 

Green Soudley does sound wrong, I agree - and that's why I chose it. There are odd place names around - Howle Hill, Pontshill and Bromsash are all near Ross. Sollers Hope, Old Gore, Phocle Green, Mordiford, Much Birch, Hole-in-the-Wall. So many curious names. England is full of place names that seem to be from another, mythical realm. I find it hard to explain or even get straight within my own head, but the wrongness of the name makes it right, somehow, if that makes any sense. I think it jars a little in the mind and to me that's a good thing. Ironically enough Green Soudley is going to be the most industrialised location on the layout and I like that contrariness too.

 

Thank you for the photo of the blossom Kevin, a really cheery picture. Last May I took a video of bumble bees around the blossom of the giant Hebe in our back garden. I tried counting them but gave up when I got past 70.

 

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fmartin.soilleuxcardwell%2Fvideos%2F1406670589434376

[Martin S-C]

Another issue I need to address soonish, though fortunately a much happier dilemma to have to face, is how I am going to operate the layout. I want a timetable or a sequence and have rummaged through my collection of model railway magazines seeking information on the subject but it seems almost every such article addresses a terminus to fiddle yard set up and for those arrangements a sequence seems relatively easy to create.

I have a whole system to get to work properly involving nine stations/locations and I am desperately hoping some people here have a few ideas I can steal. I think a sequence would be enough, at least a basic one so that a team of operators know what to do next, or what should happen next. I don't need the extra pressure of a real clock at the moment. I am thinking of the old tried and tested flip-card system. I know its a throwback to the 1960s and I would like to use computer screens but with so many operator positions (six small screens would be needed) and such a long room (one big screen might not be easily seen by all - though its a possible option) this could not be done without a large expenditure.

I am sure a timetable app can be downloaded for an iPhone but I don't use an iPhone and am a bit of a technophobe. I wouldn't want a sequence system that requires every operator to have an iPhone either.

I am still trying to organise how many types of train there will be:

1 & 2) Main line passenger from NM to GS (plus return working).
3 & 4) Main line passenger from NM to MVR EX (plus return working).
5 & 6) Main line passenger from GS to MVR EX (plus return working) (reversing at PJ).
7 & 8) Stopping Goods from NM to GS (plus return working).
9) Through goods from MVR EX to NM (where it is shunted for trips to the branch or GS).
10) Through goods from NM to MVR EX (return working for above). Freight dispatched to GS and return - see 7 & 8.
11) Coal empties from MVR EX to DSC (reversing at PJ).
12) Coal loaded from DSC to MVR EX (reversing at PJ) (return working for above).
13) Coal loaded from DSC to NM where they are shunted for trips to all stations.
14) Coal empties from NM to DSC (return working for above).
15 & 16) Branch passenger from WE to SJ and return.
17 & 18) Branch passenger from WE to SJ and onwards to GS and return (reversing at SJ).
19 & 20) Branch passenger from WE to SJ and onwards to NM and return.
21 & 22) Branch pick up goods originating from NM to WE and return.
23) Quarry empties from NM to CP.
24) Quarry loaded from CP to NM (return working for above).
25) Quarry loaded from NM to PJ or MVR EX.
26) Quarry empties from PJ or MVR EX to NM (return working for above).
27 & 28) MVR passenger working from MVR EX to NM with return to GS and reverse at PJ.
29 & 30) MR passenger working from MVR EX to NM with return to GS and reverse at PJ.
31 & 32) LNWR passenger working from MVR EX to NM with return to GS and reverse at PJ.
33 & 34) GWR passenger working from MVR EX to NM with return to GS and reverse at PJ.
35) Milk train loaded from PJ to MVR EX.
36) Milk train empties from MVR EX to NM (where shunted to be attached to passenger services) (return working for above).
37, 38, 39, 40) Morning and evening workmen's trains (colliery) to/from NM and GS calling at all stations.

Plus various traffics - bloodstock and livestock; timber; cordwood; quarried stone, dressed stone and roadstone; grain and flour; tars and wood distillation chemicals; beers and empty casks; greases, oils and tars; tinplate products; milk and dairy products; motor and horse drawn vehicles; agricultural machinery.

Specials - perishables in season (fruit & veg); hunt specials; light engine movements; engineers trains.

I need a loco roster as well, with spares.

I think I should address a train sequence before I try and work out where the freight will originate and go to.

KEY:

Main Line:

NM = Nether Madder (main station where freight is shunted and stock stored)(crown timber siding is adjacent)
SJ = Snarling Junction (junction with Witts End branch)(dairy and mill are adjacent)
PJ = Puddlebrook Junction (junction with line to Madder Valley Railway Exchange sidings)(stone masons yard is adjacent)
GS = Green Soudley (brewery, greaseworks, tinplate works and canal wharf are adjacent)

Branch:

SJ = Snarling Junction (junction to main line)
CG = Coggles Causeway
CP = Catspaw Halt (quarry and wood distillation works are adjacent)
WE = Witts End (destination for hunt specials, some bloodstock movements)

Colliery:

PJ = Puddlebrook Junction (trains reverse here for the MVR EX line)
DSC = Dean Sollers Colliery

Connection to the Rest of the World:

PJ = Puddlebrook Junction (junction with line to Madder Valley Railway exchange sidings)
MVR EX = Madder Valley Railway exchange sidings

Wow. I definitely need a spreadsheet for this.

 

 

EDIT: Fixed a typo and updated schematic with gradients.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Joe61264]

My approach to a layout this complex would be to split it into different 'routes' to write a timetable/sequence from.
My initial thought is:
Nether Madder to Green Soudley
Snarling Junction to Witts End
Puddlebrook Jn to Dean Sollers Colliery
Puddlebrook Jn to Dean Sollers Colliery

Then allocate section times between the blockposts/major locations. These can be fairly arbitrary and are mostly to help give some actual margins and intervals to the movements (particularly on a single line), rather than the constant stream of traffic you'd get with a terminus-fiddle yard setup.

 

Next is to think about what times of day your service patterns are running, such as Quarry Workings being between 10am and 4pm, Mainline Passenger 24/hr (run as postal trains at night with passenger accomodation). This should give you an idea of where you can slot different types of traffic in without creating hugely manic periods and my examples are purely for clarification. 

 

After this, start off with the mainline passenger service. Working out how long a set and/or loco take to do a return trip as per your specified service patterns means you can then get an idea for where there's paths for goods and how many locos/sets are initially needed to work the service. The best bit of route to work from on this is the length of line would seem to be NM to GS as the majority of your passenger traffic runs over this line. Rinse and repeat for the branch passenger trains that use this bit of line, then the goods trains finally. 

 

Once you've got your 'core' route planned out, you can extend services onto branches, work out connections between trains and think more about wagon systems and loco rotations and spares. 

This is very much a personal approach and quite a brief summary (happy to elaborate of course!) but I find it a logical way that can be picked up or put down as required by the outside world.
 

[Martin S-C]

Hello Joe.

 

Understood - good points. It seems like I need the track and electrics working so I can drive trains and time them (or at least move them about with realistic gaps) before I can build a proper structure. How much siding space and how many passenger sets I need also kicks in. I was thinking of 2 main line passenger sets with a third one spare (in NM carriage sidings). The two NM-GS sets will pass at either SJ or PJ, or one will go down to MVR EX and be "held" there a while. For the branch I am building two sets which will be swapped about, with the spare one kept at NM carriage sidings and the in-use branch set stabled overnight at WE. I probably have enough milk vans to attach them to early morning passenger workings to be dropped at each station en-route to be filled with churns during the day and returned to NM in the evening with a late evening milk train from NM to SJ dairy (the last branch passenger of the day will also collect milk vans from each station). An empties milk from SJ dairy to NM will happen probably at dawn, or near the early morning workmen's train.

 

So I can just enjoy swapping stock sets about, the miners/workmen's trains will probably use older stock.

 

I have initially thought of 8 return workings a day for main line passenger, with 6 on the branch 2 of which (early and late) will run through to NM and GS.

I do see this as a typical Dean Forest line however where freight is king and passenger workings are inserted around the needs of the coal and other goods workings - but coal especially which will be the big money-making freight of the system. I may end up designing the freight needs first, then squeeze passenger workings in around those.

 

BTW passenger trains will be no more than 2 x 50' bogie vehicles or 2 x 4-wheelers + a van/horsebox/CCT or two. Freight is limited to 8 wagons plus brake on the main line and 6 + brake on the branch. The branch will mostly be about trains to and from Catspaw, where quarry and wood distillation traffic should easily be enough for 6 vehicles, probably twice a day. Coming up the grade from Catspaw with a loaded quarry train might mean limiting these stone workings to 4 + brake. I could allocate a more powerful engine but I assume the branch is more lightly laid so I will limit which locos can use it. On a busy day therefore the quarry might require 2 or 3 workings. With the wood distillation works also churning out products the upper end of the branch may well turn out to be one of the busiest sections of the system.

 

To snarl things up I have 1 x 6 wheeled brake van rated at 20 tons which must be used with loaded coal trains going downhill to the MVR EX. I have an Oxford Rail 6w GW TOAD model which I plan to convert into another 20 ton brake for these duties following Niles inspiring kit bash (starting at post #718).

Witts End I envisage as quite a sleepy place except in season when bloodstock or hunt trains and shooting party specials to the local estate (name to be decided) will be run. Other than that the branch passenger (x6 a day) and one short freight per day will be enough.

 

The other busy section for freight will probably be GS to MVR EX (reversing at PJ) for all the brewery, tinplate and lubricants products from that town. Other products from these industries should be okay added to general freight workings from GS to NM.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Martin S-C

[uax6]

A friend has the AFK (the Altonian Complementary Railways system http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128759-afk-altonian-complementary-railways/ ) which is a system much like yours, his website shows the whole background to the system and is well worth a read https://myafk.net/

 

He operates against a clock, but these are home made and divides the hour into intervals of 3 mins. Each movement takes three minutes, that's 3 mins for each movement, so if you shunt a wagon off that's 3 mins for the stopping of the train, 3 mins for the uncoupling and pulling forward, 3 mins for setting back into a siding and then 3 mins for coupling back to the train.

 

So every time the loco changes direction its 3 mins, just like on the real thing.

 

He covers all sorts of things from weather conditions to having to run extras for market days etc. Take a look in Operation here: https://myafk.net/operational-factors-home

 

It works well, and does give a certain satisfaction to operating sessions... (and they are sessions that go on for weeks, not hours, just like the real thing)

 

Andy G

[chuffinghell]

I often end up at Witts End

[Martin S-C]

Andy - thanks. I have been given links to the AFK site before, maybe by you(!) but put them aside "for later reading". I clearly need to go do that now.

Chuffing - it is the final destination for all travellers after all.

[Northroader]

One of the things that appeals to me about the AFK system is the way he’s operating trains, but there’s loads of it are just “roughed out” and very much works in progress.

[Harlequin]

You probably could set up a computer with a screen at each control position without breaking the bank - if you were inclined to go that way.

 

Small monitors (by size and/or pixel count) are very cheap these days because people are upgrading to large 4K monitors leaving perfectly good smaller monitors on the retailer's shelves and on the second hand market. In fact, there must be thousands of people who would give you their old monitors just to get rid of them!

 

Each command position could have it's own very cheap small computer, e.g. a Raspberry Pi, which includes both wired and wireless networking.

 

If you are using DCC control each command position could be used to actually drive the trains as well as running the timetable.

 

It would be a very flexible and open-ended solution. You could even read RMWeb while you're operating the layout, for the complete experience! (That's what I do.)

[Martin S-C]

Phil, thanks. I had forgotten about Raspberry Pi's. A friend of mine has Pi computers all around his layout and drivers can log in remotely and drive trains via webcams while he acts as dispatcher and shunter. The idea certainly appeals, though in my case not so much for remote running but for the sequence information at each signal box. Pretty sure I can set up bell codes as well via Raspberry Pi's. Headsets with one earpiece and a mic are dirt cheap now too. It would save lots of shouting across the room (which I hate).

 

This is 2019 after all, I suppose I need to drag myself kicking and screaming into the digital age and embrace the good stuff technology now offers. Its funny, I was quite blase about using DCC, digital sound and digital interlocking of points and signals but the opportunities offered for a timetable and communications system had completely gone under my radar.

[McRuss]

Hello Martin,

 

regarding the computer screens. Last autum I bought a Teppka 10" screen, and had run it during during the FREMO Mammendorf Meeting for displaying our fastclock. I used it for three and a half day and on the full days it was used for about 10 hours a day.

 

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07FM6WX5S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

Markus

[Martin S-C]

Hi Markus, yes a screen about that size or even smaller is needed. I was actually thinking of a screen about the size of an iPhone that could slot into a plastic holder mounted beside the station lever frame. If compromised eyesight demands it, a signalman can just slip the screen out from its holder for a closer read.

Having now read through Ian's AFK railway timetable system I do like what he's done, though freight generation is a lot of what his system appears to be about. My problem is fitting everything into a sequence so most things end up where they started. I expect I might have to do this via testing once the trackwork and electrics are working. I do like Ian's idea of a cardboard model with push pins to pre-plan possible train moves and make sure things mesh.

[uax6]

Why do you need freight stock to end up where it starts? Things like coaching stock I would expect to be fairly reliable in returning to its start, but wagons will spend weeks or months wandering around before returning home (if in fact they ever did, most companies had to write off varing numbers of wagons each year as they just could not be found!). This is one of the reasons why there were so many wagons, even on small railways.

 

Andy g

[DonB]

Martin's layout is also complicated by being mostly single track, so needing a permissive-working system between passing points, this being further complicated by freight trains pausing to shunt and allowing another train to overtake. the way this is done in real life is well documented but replicating on a model causes my brain to sieze up.!  

[Nearholmer]

Why not start with a simple timetable graph, plotting location on one axis, and time on the other?

 

This is a dead-easy way to sort out train workings (not individual wagons), exceedingly helpful for single-line railways, but I can't seem to find a quick description of how to do it on the web.

 

if you are not already familiar with the method, and are patient, I can mock something up to demonstrate the basics.

 

K

[uax6]

Actually DonB has hit upon another thing that you need to consider before you get your train graph ruler out:

How are your single lines signalled?

You can use a single train staff for each section, but you can only run one train in each direction before there has to be a train in the opposite direction to bring the staff back.

You could you a divisable staff (or staff and ticket). Both these methods allow more than one train in each direction to run (upto the number of parts or tickets) before a train has to come in the other direction to bring the bits back.

Tokens with machines will allow a much more flexible service, you just have to have a token in a machine to allow the train to go, and the magazines on the machines can hold well over a twenty dependant on the machine....

 

Of course there is a cost implication, the cheapest being mentioned first with the costs getting more and more the more flexible you want the system to be, but does the traffic warrant vast amounts of expenditure? Here in Norfolk most of the single line branches were run on staff and ticket to the end.

 

Also I note you have Crown Timber Siding mid section. This would point to that section having a staff with an Annets key on it to unlock the point to the siding, and which cannot be removed until the point is set for the main line and locked.

 

Also something to consider is how long the sections between stations actually is. These distances have a material difference to the time it needs the train to clear the section.

 

And how do you envisage running your railway? Are you going to run one train from start to destination, or are you going to have a lot of trains all in progress, and you run one train from one station to the next, and then run another one section etc, so that there is a conscious movement of all trains like in real life?

 

Andy G

[ianathompson]

Having now read through Ian's AFK railway timetable system.

 

Sorry, caught up with this late (and still have not found the quote button!) but I have returned from the pub.

 

I thought I had tried to cover all these arguments in the various articles, particularly with reference to timetable graphs.

 

Ian T

[Talltim]

I was going to suggest the AFK so I’m glad it already has been. I think it’s a great layout, and that’s without even seeing it in action, which is its raison d’etre. It’s weird, the layouts I find most inspiring are completely different what I aim for in modelling. Maybe my aims are wrong!

Whatever you do, don’t contract Network Rail to produce your operating plan!

Edited January 2, 2019 by Talltim

[Martin S-C]

Hummm, lots to think about.

 

 

 

How are your single lines signalled?

 

Well, some weeks ago Kevin sowed the seeds in my mind of some very, VERY basic light railway prior-to-turn-of-the-century signalling with stop boards and bobbies waving trains into stations. This is fantastically basic and also lots of fun and will probably be how the branch will be signalled. The branch will be most often be one engine in steam however on some occasions while a passenger or pick up goods train goes all the way to Witts End, a second freight working will go down as far as the quarry or wood distillation works and back, this service returning first. The main line will probably be signalled with a variety of primitive systems such as disc and crossbar or slotted posts, with a train staff to allow entry into sections. I don't plan on having distants because the model stations are physically too close, merely homes and starters and a few shunt signals.

 

So, yes, single track between stations will involve a train returning back along the single line section before a second train follows the first outbound one. If a need arises for an unbalanced working I envisage a ticket being issued to the second train. I also see, at an ideal operating session, one signalman/driver per station and adjacent pairs of operators will shuttle trains between them. Every train stops at every station (unless three adjacent operators get very efficient and allow a train to roll through unimpeded, which would be super slick and look good, though this is not necessary).

 

The Crown Timber Siding as you'll see on the main layout plan is very close to NM and therefore falls within the signalling limits of that block section. I intend it to be shunted from the NM yard with wagons being propelled from the station. Or a wagon could be collected by a train coming up the grade from Snarling. In such cases though I will need functional miniature scotch blocks to hold the train on the 1 in 33 grade - this in view of the fact that I am NOT going to model working brakes on my brake vans.

 

Ian, sorry if I wasn't clear - yes your webpages do give lots of info on making up a time vs distance graph. I am just scratching my head a bit over how to do this since my stations are packed quite close together and running times between them will be very short. I suppose, though, that my chosen layout plan is what it is ad any time/distance graph will have to be constructed around the very short transit times. Given that various vans and such will be attached to many passenger trains, most trains will do some shunting at most stations so that time will be consumed quickly in most cases. An alternative is to run mixed trains to cater for all the general freight and the only goods trains I run would be for specific traffics such as coal, milk, quarried stone, cordwood, etc.

 

Andy - I think a sequence needs to be balanced, or at least pretty much so. Not every vehicle needs to end where it begins but if I inadvertently build in an imbalance, there may be problems. Yes, I could fix these by running an empties freight to rectify the vehicles missing where they are needed but planning in advance to ensure this isn't necessary is preferable.

 

Kevin - Ian's AFK website covers these mechanics. I just need a quiet day or two sat down with pencil ruler graph paper and eraser to begin plotting it all out. The scale drawing of the layout plan with estimated speeds/timings of trains between stations is also needed. This means I need to decide train speed limits and work out 4mm/ft scale speeds. I have this formula somewhere on my PC. I'm currently thinking that unfitted freight will be 15 mph, fitted freight (e.g. milk, bloodstock, some livestock, mail) 20 mph and passenger rated trains 25 mph. I shall probably run th ebranch at 15 mph for all freights and 20 mph for passenger/everything else on the basis of lighter rail and lesser engineered permanent way.

[uax6]

Just a quick note, if its staff and ticket working, the driver of the first train has to see the staff )indeed all drivers have to see the staff), and it is he that is issued with the ticket. The last driver through the section takes the staff...

 

Andy G

[Martin S-C]

Phone call from the builder today, he will be sending someone on Tuesday to remove the electrical sockets, add insulation behind, board over the holes and replace them with wall mounted ones. On Wednesday Pete the humidity/damp/heating/air-con expert is coming round to have a look at things.

[St Enodoc]

Phone call from the builder today, he will be sending someone on Tuesday to remove the electrical sockets, add insulation behind, board over the holes and replace them with wall mounted ones. On Wednesday Pete the humidity/damp/heating/air-con expert is coming round to have a look at things.

 

I'm sure you've planned this already, Martin, but make sure the sockets are not where you want baseboard legs. Don't ask me how I know this...

[Martin S-C]

Good advice. I will go measure up tomorrow and mark the positions of baseboard legs on the floor (with an extra inch or three to allow for any necessary variation)!

Neil who is doing the layout build also has now printed the plan in 1:1 scale. I don't know if he means my scenery details or the Anyrail file but either way I am dying to see it.

[Stubby47]

Also allow room above and below the sockets for any odd-shaped plug/transformer units.

[Martin S-C]

Cheers Stu.

They are at about 12" height currently. I think I'll request them a bit higher, maybe 24". The sockets are also mounted in pairs side by side but I will ask for them to be mounted one above the other so they occupy less wall space as I want to fill the under baseboard areas with wheeled storage units. I like John's (St Enodoc's) idea of IKEA units screwed to reinforcing ply bases and then castors under those. Very practical.

Luckily there isn't that much junk that needs to go under the layout. It will mostly be rolling stock, magazines and modelling bits.

I will definitely connect the main power plugs via surge protection units. we rarely get any storms here and those we get are just babies but better safe than sorry.