Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm sure I've crossed real railway bridges less sturdy than that ....... its not going to blow away in the first puff of wind, is it?

It was a tad over-engineered, perhaps... but I'd rather things erred on that side than t'other.
 

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Make sure the hinge pins are above rail level. Don't ask why I mention this...

Yep, checked that already!

 

2 hours ago, wiggoforgold said:

Good evening Martin. I've been reading this thread since you started and am greatly enjoying your build. I like "system" layouts, and I have long admired the Madder Valley, so I was instantly taken with your idea. Looking forward to seeing it develop.

Alex

 

Cheers Alex, I'm looking forward to that as well!

For relaxation tonight I bit the bullet and did a bit more work on my Wisbech & Upwell train. The half-painted coaches have sat on my desk, gathering dust since November and tonight I dredged from somewhere the motivation to paint the wheels/bogies, frames and ends. The ironwork on the end balconies needs to be black, the interiors need painting and glazing and then some lining and transfers and a subtle weather and that's all they need. Now that the layout is starting to look like a layout and not a painters and decorators shed I realised I must have a passenger train to test run. Test running being such a critical part of the build process, this train is a vital item of equipment that now needs to be ready. Or some such.

 

Ack. Roof has curved a bit while sitting at the back of the paint shop.

 

I ought to letter up and weather a loco as well. Having just one colliery Peckett isn't going to cut the mustard for much longer.

All of these have sound decoders fitted and are ready to roll, I do need to change lettering/livery to my own however (in some cases, not all), do some weathering and fit crew. Any preferences?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Annie]

That ploughing engine definitely isn't going to get away now Martin.  Nice work.

[Martin S-C]

Frustration time.

What do people use to glue in coach glazing? I have some hard acetate-type clear sheet which I think came from a Ratio kit and I cannot find an adhesive that will attach it cleanly to brass. I painted the interiors beforehand so the brass is now painted... probably a mistake but it would be impossible to paint the interior after the sheet is in. The kit has separate window droplights as well so the interior wall isn't flush - no matter what I try I cannot get the glazing strip to sit up tight against the windows. There's a horrible scale 3 or 4 inch gap in places. I can't be the first person to have struggled with this so what do people do?

 

 

[KNP]

I use glue 'n' glaze from Deluxe as it can fill largish gaps.

[Martin S-C]

Cheers Kevin, I have ordered a bottle. Getting a bit stressed out over this little issue.

[chuffinghell]

Another vote for glue n glaze

 

I also use it for attaching etched number plates. It allows plenty of time for adjustment  and any excess can be wiped away with a damp cotton bud without marking or damaging the paint

Edited March 9, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Martin S-C]

One of my most disliked jobs - painting coaches. I just don't seem to have the eye-hand co-ordination for it. Still, we must press on.

Here's the four chopped about/base painted Hornby clerestories. Two in the Prussian blue and cream of the GSR and two in the Doncaster green and cream of the NMR. Things are complicated by the fact that the donor to the NMR brake coach was one of the later style Hornby vehicles that had the panelling painted on, so I've got a completely flat side to work on. Oh joy. My first thought is to treat the two green/cream vehicles in different styles, a simpler layout being used on the unpanelled coach.

 

 

 

 

Here are some photos for inspiration. The Prussian blue S&DJR model you need to imagine with cream upper panels.

 

 

 

 

 

The question is how detailed should I go? There is a model of a GWR clerestory above which has the simple scheme without any panel lining or highlighting but to me it lacks character. Most of the more complex schemes have a gold lining within the panel edges, something I really doubt I'm capable of doing. I have some very fine Staedler pigment lining pens in black for the details but I should perhaps try one in yellow for the gold panel edging. I already have a gold metallic marker but it's a 1.2mm point so probably both too wide and the wrong shade.

 

 

All comments and suggestions are very welcome.

[chuffinghell]

I'm liking the green

 

I thought about modifying and repainting a rake of Hornby clerestory coaches but its a bit too ambitious for my skills at the moment

Edited March 11, 2019 by chuffinghell

[CameronL]

Hi. For simple patterns with corners not curves on flat surfaces such as your unpanelled coach I used to use florists tape (gutta percha) to mark out the shapes before painting.  It isn't too sticky and it's easy to work with so I could use it to mark out simple squares and rectangles, although doing a whole coach would take several applications following a lot of planning on what I could do with each one (mainly stick to one direction per application).

Panelling is a pig, but I did find a way that worked for me. The surface of the panelling was painted using a very fine mapping pen with the tip bent down through 45 degrees. A very small amount of paint on the nib applied from the back of the nib held parallel to the line of the panelling would give an acceptable line (especially if not viewed too closely) but it did take a long time. I did once try applying a gold line to the inside of the raised panelling using the point of a needle in the angle, again one small bit at a time. Results weren't bad but it took forever and from even a moderate distance you couldn't see it anyway. 

This is the kind of issue that has to be considered. A lined coach looks good, but if it's just the basics and any visitor to your small empire whips out a magnifying glass and says "It really needs a fine gold line inside the panel edges as well" simply refer them to that famous self-help book "A Life And How To Get One".

 

I used both these techniques in my teens. I don't know if I'd have the patience / steady hand / eyesight to use either one now. 

 

Best of luck. I'm sure your results will be worth seeing.

 

Cam

[Martin S-C]

I am still ruminating on the coaches.

After a bit of a break to attend to a job "darn sarf", Neil returned today and together we pushed on with the raised boards to support various stations and industrial areas. Neil chose to work on the south side and south-west corner of the layout and we'll work clockwise around the room. My suggested plan of action is to get all the basic flat areas boarded over, all round the layout, except for those that cover tunneled tracks. This mainly means the central pair of main boards for the two termini, which are the highest and which go on last. We'll then link all these boards with gradients so that we can get a better idea of what the grades will be. Track will then be laid, electrified and tested on the gradients and finally, roof those gradients that are in tunnels over before the highest boards go on.

 

As Cyril Freezer frequently said, "start at the bottom and work upwards".

 

Here are some pics of the south side and south-west corner and a plan of where we worked today. Numbered arrows reference the photos. The blue area is a proposed (small) bank of lime kilns.

 

 

Photo 2. My latest build, the tiny W&U luggage van (wheelbase is only 6 feet) came out to play. More on this build later.

 

Photo 1, looking towards the carriage shed and carriage & wagon works raised area (datum +8"). In the foreground is Catspaw Halt with Catspaw Quarry where the drill is (datum +2") with between these two raised areas the fiddle yard/exchange sidings at datum +0".

 

Photo 3. C&W Works raised area at the back, Catspaw Quarry in left foreground, first board for Green Soudley station in the left rear (datum +5").

 

Photo 4. Same view looking the other way. Green Soudley entry board at left, quarry under the drill, C&W Works at the rear.

 

Photo 5. A view same as 3 but a bit further back showing the area under the drill where the Wood Distillation Works will be. This view gives a better idea of the relationship between Catspaw Halt at the front, the exchange sidings down in a shallow valley and the C&W sidings very high up at the back. A running line will be in front of the C&W Works on a 1 in 66 grade climbing away from camera from low down under this end of the yellow spirit level all the way to the Green Soudley board at extreme left rear. This is going to cling to a high retaining wall and should look a bit like parts of the Ffestiniog if it works as I hope.

 

Photo 6. The SW corner showing the raised board going in for the end of the colliery reception and departure roads. Green spirit level front left is in same location as for photo 5. The foreground area is going to involve some complex arrangements of tracks on gradients and rising and falling ground. I'm very much looking forward to getting this area to work how I envisage it in my mind.

 

Photo 7. The Catspaw, Exchange Sidings and C&WW boards with all the plans and clutter removed. Compare with photo 5.

 

Photo 8. And from the other direction. Compare with photo 4.

 

Photo 9. Looking west. Another raised board added under the colliery area. This will support all the reception/departure roads and the stabling siding. The "guts" of the colliery are just off-camera to the right. Wood Distillation Works are on the raised board at left front.

 

Photo 10. Apologies for the Class 08 diesel but as its a very tall loco, we used it for loading gauge tests on the gradients and tunnel entrances. The bit of paper it's standing on represents the running line on a gradient from the SW colliery corner towards Green Soudley that'll hug a shelf above the exchange sidings and below the C&WW. You just need to imagine it's about 3" up in the air at this point.

 

And a teaser:

 

 

[81C]

Staedtler make a Triplus Fineliner I have used the Neon orange on GWR war time livery lining to good effect I've ordered an Ochre gold one to test the colour they are dry board pens

so a varnish coating will be required, they are just over £2 posted on Ebay.

Bob

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Staedtler-Triplus-Fineliner-334-All-Colours-Single-Pens-Box-of-10-/222614234026

[Martin S-C]

At the end of yesterday I was shattered and I didn't feel like we'd achieved that much. But after today, even though again I didn't think we'd pushed on that much, I realised that with the two days combined we really had something to show for it.

Today Neil and I kept working clockwise on the station boards and dealt with the west end, NW corner and N side, meeting up with the boards we started on about three weeks back at Puddlebrook and Witts End to the right of the door. Today we got the rest of the colliery boards installed and the Puddlebrook boards where they cross the lifting flap. We then tackled the awkward west end with all the gradients, getting the +0 datum to +2" datum grade from Witts End to Ryehope Wood Distillation Works installed and beginning work on the Puddlebrook to MVR Exchange sidings gradient (+2" to 0"). This was our first go at any of the gradoents and they revealed themselves to be easier to do than I'd expected.

 

Tomorrow we have two major grades to construct - finishing from Puddlebrook down to the MVR Exchange sidings and from the main line +2" level at the colliery up to the +5" height of Green Soudley. This last one is going to be fun.

 

1) Laying the main colliery board in the NW corner.

 

2) Putting the Puddlebrook (+2") level in across the lifting flap.

 

3) Laying the gradient across the lifting flap that runs west out of Witts End.

 

4) More of the gradient as the track curves towards the SW, still climbing. This is the start of the western tramway section. Gradient is about 1 in 35 on a 4ft radius curve.

 

5) Another view of the same from a higher level. Neil is in his usual troglodyte pose.

 

6) End of the day and an overall view of two day's work with paper plans and tools tidied away - first Catspaw Quarry left foreground, C&WW at far left, colliery under the far window and around to Puddlebrook across the door and under the right window.

 

7) And lastly, shifting the view a bit to the right showing the doorway lift flap, Puddlebrook and Witts End under the light switch and thermometer. We had lovely spring-like weather today. Even with the door wide open all day the temperature inside was 15 degrees C. Extremely pleasant tee-shirt weather.

 

[south_tyne]

Fantastic to see the progress over the last few days Martin. It must be really heartening to see the layout start to take shape and emerge from paper! Exciting times!!

[KNP]

Very impressive, now all you have to do is just the small task of building a layout on it!!

 

[Martin S-C]

Today was a tale of two gradients. We worked on the grade that drops down from Puddlebrook to the MVR Exchange Sidings which is a 180deg sweep around the west end of the layout, a 2" fall at about 1 in 60.

Next was the "cliffhanger" section of the main line rising from the colliery at +2" to Green Soudley station at +5", which clings to a retaining wall below the C&WW and above the Exchange Sidings.

 

We played about using some apps on Neil's phone - a spirit level and a scaling tool. Neither was really accurate enough to be more than a diversion. The technology is impressive though.

 

 

We tried a builder's string line around a series of supports to get the gradient on the 180deg curve but this didn't work. Simple measurement and maths between the support points won the day.

 

 

Gradient complete from +2" (at right) down to +0" at left.

 

The builders string level concept worked very well for the other gradient which, while it gently reverse-curves about a little, is overall effectively straight.

 

We screwed level "semaphore arm" timbers at each support point so that their ends just brushed the taut line.

 

Then on top of these arms we screwed the shelf, making sure at all times that the line was sitll taut under its own tension and never held down or lifted up. We found this a really quick method for a long straight-ish incline. The gradient frame starts to look like the Chernobyl Hilton.

 

A quick clearances check.

 

 

Testing retaining wall samples. These commercial products might work okay for the upper part of the grade but lower down the height change is too great. Here it will have to be some other solution. I haven't yet drummed up the courage to suggest Das clay and scribing... An alternative is resin and a rubber mould.

 

Gradient complete. Compared to the curved one this was a doddle.

 

Clearance check at the summit of the climb where the track dives into a second tunnel under the carriage sidings approach line (served from Nether Madder).

 

A general view.

 

I still think it looks like a river canyon.

 

 

The bottom of both gradients. Where one ends, the other starts, more or less. About a yard of overlap and during this overlap both lines are in tunnels. The hill above will be decorated with railway workers cottages and a farm. The branch line will run in front.

 

The MVR Exchange line climbing up to Puddlebrook Station. The left-most curved board carries the branch line from Ryehope (at far left) down to Witts End (behind camera). Its all about slopes at this end of the layout.

Once again apologies for the diesel shunter, but its tall outline is perfect for loading gauge checks.

Next Tuesday we'll tackle the main line gradient along the north layout edge from Puddlebrook via its tunnel to Snarling and the twin gradient tunnels of the branch from Catspaw Quarry around to Coggles Causeway and the hidden circuit line from Green Soudley down and underneath the eastern end of the layout where (below Armisford Mill) there will be an up and a down storage loop as well as a centre through line.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Stubby47]

Not sure about the Chernobyl  Hilton comment though

[Annie]

Wow Martin, - it's amazing to see it all off the sheets of paper and built for real out of wood.  Now it's possible to see and visualise the size and scope of the layout.  This going to be one amazing layout.  

[CameronL]

 

 

4 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

 

Testing retaining wall samples. These commercial products might work okay for the upper part of the grade but lower down the height change is too great. Here it will have to be some other solution. I haven't yet drummed up the courage to suggest Das clay and scribing... An alternative is resin and a rubber mould.

 

 

Hi Martin. Retaining walls can be a problem. If you make them too tall it looks like your train is running in front of a reservoir dam. May I suggest an option that doesn't require increasingly-deep retaining walls?

 

Split the wall so the top part is brick but the bottom part is bedrock. The brick walls sit on top of rock walls so it looks like the railway line has been carved out of the earth - 

 

 

 

You can even make the bottom line of the retaining wall wavy so as to make it look like it's been built on top of the natural contours of the land. As the wall gets higher there's less brick and more stone.

 

Sorry about the bog-standard illustration but I just knocked it together to give you the idea. 

 

There is a prototypical example of exactly this. The cutting into Liverpool Lime Street is bare rock topped by retaining walls, and they do vary in depth with the contours of the land. It was built in 1836 so it's stood the test of time. 

 

It might not be for you, but I hope it's given you some food for thought. Personally I think it will make the railway look a bit more part of the landscape.

 

PS - Are the LLC giving you a discount for all the advertising? All this high-class work must be generating so much (well deserved) work for them. I'd be itching to get some track laid and trains running (and I once powered a small layout with the 9V battery out of a smoke alarm).

 

Regards

 

Cam

[Martin S-C]

Hi Cam.

Good thinking... I had wondered how a 6" high retaining wall would appear and I agree with you it would look weird. I hadn't yet come to terms with how to make it seem more believeable. There is scope both above and below that inclined track to have some grassy embankment as well, though I worry that then it would look like the Union Pacific railroad through the rockies in 1870 or some such. There's space below for some earthen bank but your idea of partly raw rock above has given me something (good) to consider. At the right hand end the inclined track dives into a tunnel so I do have a fair excuse for a decent slab of rock for it to be negotiating the lower recesses of!

The scene makes me think of the Ffestiniog so I shall scoot off to look at pics of that line where it's carried on a mountainside shelf.

I'll also check out any rock outcrop or railway cutting examples in west Gloucestershire or Herefordshire as well.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Martin S-C

[CameronL]

Hi Martin.

 

Grassy embankment above and below the track is a feature of exotic lines like the UP in the Rockies, the Conwy Valley and the Vale of Rheidol. You don't have to cross the pond to find a prototypical example of such. If you have earthen bank below and raw rock above it will look like the railway has been cut into a hillside - something railway engineers have done all over the country in hilly places (ie not my native North Cheshire) since steam engines first went "Chuff".  Any railway running along a hillside will have stretches of exactly this feature. Just file this in the "Prototype for Everything" file.

 

Cam

[Martin S-C]

These seem to offer some prototype potential.
 

 

Though scaling them down to something more like this kind of thing.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Martin S-C

[CameronL]

Hi Martin

 

I think the top two pictures of bare rock topped by uneven and occasional retaining wall are exactly what you need. The plant life on the second picture hadn't occurred to me - recreated on a layout it would help to break up the large expanses of wall, be they raw rock or bricks. It would really make that bit of the layout a part of the scenery. 

 

Best wishes.

 

Cam

[Martin S-C]

Just lining, lettering and weathering to go now. Me and this pair have had a bit of a love-hate relationship, but now that I'm nearly done I'm mostly satisfied with the result. I've learned a lot from painting these, mostly what not to do and hopefully the next train will come out looking a little less dogs-breakfasty.
 

 

Speaking of which...

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

What are these marvellous coaches? They look like an Airfix kit!

[drduncan]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

What are these marvellous coaches? They look like an Airfix kit!

I think they are old Keyser ones.

drduncan