Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Martin S-C]

Thanks for the input. The colour on the loco is actually quite a deep ochre shade. It has come out much paler in the pics, but that could be just my monitor or graphics card's colour balance. The orange of the lining is a much more vibrant colour. It shows up well on my screen at end-of-nose range. The two are quite distinct.

I am still mulling this over. When the BR coach lining sheet arrives I will try those on one side of the loco and my Staedtler pigment liner pens on t'other.

 

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I see your coal is also yellow, are you planning on running them on high oil content Tasmanite rather than the locally produced stuff?

That's the crew's pork pie stash. Some seem to have gone a bit grey and mouldy though.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Martin S-C

[dunwurken]

Hint of the Craig and Mertonford later 'Hancock' s Improved Engine Green' livery in that base colour. 

Malcolm

[Martin S-C]

I call it Cardwell's Improved Engine Vomit. Lets face facts, it's a pretty weird colour.

[Annie]

As you know Martin I like anything that resembles the M&GNJR livery.  The M&GNJR used gold, black, gold lining which was certainly noticeable on my digital models and the gold wasn't swallowed up by the background colour as I thought it might be at first.

[Martin S-C]

I've received a pack of 1950s steam BR loco lining from Jim at Model Master (very helpful gent - no other connection, etc etc) and the orange in the orange-black-orange sequence is very strong and quite distinct from the yellow ochre of the paint finish. I'll be trying some of this out over the next day or two.

By very, very, VERY carefully using a scalpel I could cut the transfers lengthwise and make the bands black-orange-black. That will have to be a job for when I'm feeling especially alert and patient, however.

As a short intermission of sorts I have spotted these two wagons on e-Bay. The M&GN one has a container that is no use to me, being from the 1930s, but the lettering looks reasonably accurate as does the colour. The Midland supplied the M&GN with wagons so this should be a Midland 3-plank diagram D.818 which was a 9ft 6ins WB, some with short brake levers and some with long. The earlier undiamgrammed 3-plank opens were 9ft WB and all had short brake levers. This underframe has a long one. The model looks like 10ft WB to me. It's dirt cheap right now and I could swap the body onto a 9ft underframe kit I have spare. Was wondering if anyone has any input such as "don't bother", "eek, avoid at all costs", "yeah, worth a punt", etc.
 

 

The SR banana van is livery-wise of no interest to me and would be repainted but the actual construction of the van body is a tooling that I have never seen before and could work well for a fictional pre-grouping wagon, maybe again, on a different kit chassis. Its again on e-Bay at a cheap price. Does anyone know what prototype Hornby are trying to replicate with this van?

 

 

 

[Annie]

The van is a Hull & Barnsley Railway van and by all accounts a reasonable representation.  Who knows why Hornby chose such an obscure prototype as the basis of a goods van, but they must've made thousands (and thousands) of them by now.  (And 99.9999999% of them are all in a totally incorrect livery)

 

The lettering on the M&GNJR open is very nicely done, but M&GNJR goods wagons were painted 'red oxide' pre-1917 and then grey thereafter so I'm not at all sure about it being brown.  Mind you if you Google 'red oxide' the range of different shades of colour that will turn up in the search is pretty amazing.  If you're going to change the underframe and it's cheap enough I'd give it a punt.

[CameronL]

Hi Martin.

There's an SR banana van thread on rmweb - 

Don't know if this helps, because the thread mentions the 1930s. However, the box van looks like a repaint of a van that Hornby supplied as part of a set 

 

The set in question was Thomas, Annie, Clarabelle and a box van. Now, I'm not saying that's the only provenance of this particular piece of rolling stock, but if you Google "Hornby box van" there it is. 

 

Personally, being a bear of very little brain I'd get both, give them a repaint and a weathering and go by the "If it looks right..." rule, and not bother about swapping underframes. As for the container, it could be re-roled as a lineside tool shed, chicken coop or, with the roof cut off, and some supports, a lean-to for a rusty old tractor. 

 

Cam

[Annie]

The van is definitely older than the Thomas sets.  I was young and single and yet to have children when that H&B van first appeared in Hornby's catalogue.

[CameronL]

Thanks Annie.

 

I sit corrected. Your info puts it spot on for a pre-grouping small empire. It just needs a repaint and some weathering.

 

Regards

 

Cam

[Martin S-C]

Thanks for the info Annie. If it's an HBR van then I'll put it in HBR livery. I haven't even bid on either yet but will do now.

[Martin S-C]

Another day working on the baseboards. Neil and I are now at the east end of the layout at Snarling station and Armisford Mill.

 

It was one more day of slow going, laying out the boards to hold the hidden circuit storage loop sidings at +2" with their protective backing screens and the Snarling and Armisford boards above them at +5". Lots of measuring, cutting, re-cutting, fussy clearance checks, a bit more cutting, checking again where the Cobalts will fit, fettling of support legs and such.

 

West end of Snarling station board with the climbing gradient from Puddlebrok at the left rear. The entry track to the circuit's hidden storage loops is just below it where the scrap piece of code 75 is. The curved cut-out is the start of the branch on its falling grade to Coggles Causeway which will be at left foreground.

The R/H end of the same board showing the hidden circuit storage entrance with its protective backing screen in place.

A peek underneath. The backing screens will stop any derailed trains from falling off the rear of their trackbed and will catch any little bits like couplings, buffers, etc that always seem to fall off models in the most awkward places. My plan is to paint this hidden area overall in white emulsion, including the underside of the boards above, to make things as easy as possible to see. I might even fit some small LEDs under there.

The SE corner of the layout where the loco coaling stage and Crown timber siding will be in the far corner. Checking clearances for the three tracks of the up and down storage roads and centre through road. The two storage loops will be about 6ft 6ins long and each able to hold three trains.

Test placing track of the three hidden roads with blocks at the left to support the Armisford mill board above. Armisford mill building itself will be right in the centre of this image.

Another view with part of the protective backing screen for the hidden loops in place. Where the short supports are will be left open for hand and visual access to the loops. After this pic was taken Neil and I were discussing access and support for the upper board and I suggested we use lengths of 20mm wooden dowel as we can put some between the tracks and once painted they'll look tidier.

[Martin S-C]

And...

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

On 10/04/2019 at 12:30, Martin S-C said:

 

 

The SR banana van is livery-wise of no interest to me and would be repainted but the actual construction of the van body is a tooling that I have never seen before and could work well for a fictional pre-grouping wagon, maybe again, on a different kit chassis. Its again on e-Bay at a cheap price. Does anyone know what prototype Hornby are trying to replicate with this van?

 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Annie said:

The van is a Hull & Barnsley Railway van and by all accounts a reasonable representation.  Who knows why Hornby chose such an obscure prototype as the basis of a goods van, but they must've made thousands (and thousands) of them by now.  (And 99.9999999% of them are all in a totally incorrect livery)

 

 

Here's the thing.  It is often said that the body of this model is an accurate representation of the H&B van.   

 

Believing this, years ago I bought one with a view to replacing the underframe and detailing.

 

However, I have since learnt that, actually, it's not at all accurate. Though there are prominent upright stanchions on the ends, there is no raised or outside framing around the doors, sides or ends.

 

As it is, therefore, in effect a freelance vehicle, I had decided to employ some on the West Norfolk Railway, so I hope that you have no objections to that.  

[Annie]

Ah, there you go I live and learn James.  I've never owned one of the Hornby vans, but often read in RM and other magazines back in the day that the van body was an accurate representation.  It certainly looks like a pre-grouping van and on that basis should be fine to use on the W.N.R.

 

No objection from me sir, - none at all.  (And thanks for posting that useful picture of the genuine article)

[Compound2632]

On 10/04/2019 at 12:30, Martin S-C said:

The Midland supplied the M&GN with wagons

 

I am curious as to your source for this statement. Information on M&GN wagons is scant to say the least - even Tatlow can only turn up three photos (apart from service stock that survived into the 1930s) - partly explained by the Joint's fleet being very small, only 388 vehicles in 1922. There's certainly no evidence in the Lot Book of the Midland building wagons for the M&GN, whereas batches built for the two other large joint lines the Midland was partner in - the Cheshire Lines and the S&DJR - are recorded.

 

I suppose it's possible that the Midland supplied second-hand wagons, as they did carriages; I'd be very interested to see evidence of this. None of the three photos show anything remotely like a Midland design of wagon; there's a cattle wagon that has at most some features of Great Northern design.

 

 

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I am curious as to your source for this statement. Information on M&GN wagons is scant to say the least - even Tatlow can only turn up three photos (apart from service stock that survived into the 1930s) - partly explained by the Joint's fleet being very small, only 388 vehicles in 1922. There's certainly no evidence in the Lot Book of the Midland building wagons for the M&GN, whereas batches built for the two other large joint lines the Midland was partner in - the Cheshire Lines and the S&DJR - are recorded.

 

I suppose it's possible that the Midland supplied second-hand wagons, as they did carriages; I'd be very interested to see evidence of this. None of the three photos show anything remotely like a Midland design of wagon; there's a cattle wagon that has at most some features of Great Northern design.

 

 

 

This is very much a subject on my research 'to do' list, but essentially the Eastern & Midland wagons seem to have been unrelated to MR or GN, and M&GNR wagons seem to follow GN practice. 

[Talltim]

This Wizard Models H&B van seems to be similar in style to the Hornby model. While I don’t make any claims for it’s accuracy I’d think it was based on a prototype https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/hbrd013/ 

I can remember an article on doing up the Hornby van in a 70s/early 80s Railway Modeller.

This post has a couple of photos of different H&B vans 

 

[Nearholmer]

There is something deeply wrong with that Hornby van, in that the braces/washer-plates in the corners of each panel on the side make no structural sense.

 

On the real, outside, or more likely double, skinned, inside-framed one, they do, because they clearly relate to concealed X bracing. I think the Hornby designer or toolmaker misread the drawing of the real thing, recessing the vertical boarding which should be flush with the framing.

 

The other H&B van (Wizard models) is not directly related; the entire construction is different, with a single skin only (probably not an insulated vehicle) and no X bracing (probably has iron knees in the corners of the framing instead). It looks very ‘Bristol’ to me, so it would be very interesting to know who the H&B bought its first vans from.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

49 minutes ago, Talltim said:

This Wizard Models H&B van seems to be similar in style to the Hornby model. While I don’t make any claims for it’s accuracy I’d think it was based on a prototype https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/hbrd013/ 

 

That appears to be a van of quite different design.

And I see Kevin has noted this as well.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I am curious as to your source for this statement. Information on M&GN wagons is scant to say the least - even Tatlow can only turn up three photos (apart from service stock that survived into the 1930s) - partly explained by the Joint's fleet being very small, only 388 vehicles in 1922. There's certainly no evidence in the Lot Book of the Midland building wagons for the M&GN, whereas batches built for the two other large joint lines the Midland was partner in - the Cheshire Lines and the S&DJR - are recorded.

 

I suppose it's possible that the Midland supplied second-hand wagons, as they did carriages; I'd be very interested to see evidence of this. None of the three photos show anything remotely like a Midland design of wagon; there's a cattle wagon that has at most some features of Great Northern design.

 

 

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/00-app2/joint/mandgn.htm

My bad I read "...built to typical Midland designs..." as "...built by the Midland Railway."

Amazing how easy it is to make such a mistake.

 

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

As it is, therefore, in effect a freelance vehicle, I had decided to employ some on the West Norfolk Railway, so I hope that you have no objections to that.  

No objections from me. I wonder why you ask - does this mean you'll be bidding on a couple on e-Bay? There's 3 or 4 loitering about there with intent ATM. I plan to grab 2 if poss.

Given the above discussions and my purposes for them, remodelling them into HBR types is a no-go, but with a kit underframe and tweaked I think they would make nice fictional vans for my NMR or GSR, or even a Craig & Mertonford or Aire Valley van.

Thank you all for the input, all very helpful.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

There is something deeply wrong with that Hornby van, in that the braces/washer-plates in the corners of each panel on the side make no structural sense.

 

On the real, outside, or more likely double, skinned, inside-framed one, they do, because they clearly relate to concealed X bracing. I think the Hornby designer or toolmaker misread the drawing of the real thing, recessing the vertical boarding which should be flush with the framing.

 

The other H&B van (Wizard models) is not directly related; the entire construction is different, with a single skin only (probably not an insulated vehicle) and no X bracing (probably has iron knees in the corners of the framing instead). It looks very ‘Bristol’ to me, so it would be very interesting to know who the H&B bought its first vans from.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

 

What he said.

 

To make structural sense for a freelance van, you'd need either to remove the diagonal plates or, I suppose, add external X bracing.  I am not sure that the vertical side planking would really go with this, though. It's quite a GNR feature, pre-Grouping, and some other examples, but one suspects it is the outer skin of perishable vans and is not seen where there is a single skin with external framing, where I would expect conventional horizontal planking. So it's a bit of an illiterate design effort resulting in a real buqqer's muddle. 

 

Thinking about the old H&B original, I suppose you could build up the sides to be flush with the framing.  Bit of a faff, but you could gain an accurate model that way. 

 

To my mind the 1885 H&B van has a SER look; all you'd need is to have two uprights between the door and the end instead of one. 

 

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

 

No objections from me. I wonder why you ask - does this mean you'll be bidding on a couple on e-Bay? There's 3 or 4 loitering about there with intent ATM. I plan to grab 2 if poss.

Given the above discussions and my purposes for them, remodelling them into HBR types is a no-go, but with a kit underframe and tweaked I think they would make nice fictional vans for my NMR or GSR, or even a Craig & Mertonford or Aire Valley van.
 

 

I intend to get 2-3, but haven't done anything about it yet, still mired with WNR opens. 

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

To my mind the 1885 H&B van has a SER look; all you'd need is to have two uprights between the door and the end instead of one. 

 

 

Chatham, in fact - the locomotives and rolling stock for the opening of the Hull Barnsley & West Riding Junction Railway & Dock Company was specified by the company's consultant, William Kirtley, who was Locomotive Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the LCDR. He rather naturally provided drawings based on his current Longhenge practice. Why Kirtley? Because one of the leading promoters of the line was James Staats Forbes, chairman of the Chatham. It was perhaps ironic that once the HB&WRJR&DCo appointed a full-time Locomotive Superintendent, they picked Matthew Stirling, so of Patrick of course but also nephew of James of the Chatham's rival, the South Eastern - Matthew's locomotives being more closely related to his uncle's than his father's.

 

I did start giving some Hornby "H&B" bodies Cambrian underframes, to make D&SJR biscuit vans, but they're languishing in primer:

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

That's it, with that single upright, it's very like LCDR covered wagons!

 

1885 H&B van, copyright Wizard Models

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Edwardian
Pictures

[Nearholmer]

Here are typical Bristol vehicles for comparison. These could as easily be for Irish 3ft as Russian 3ft 6in. 

 

The horizontal frame member halfway up each door on the LCDR seems distinctive at first, but that was used by Bristol, and by Gloucester, on some vans, ones with "wardrobe" rather than sliding, doors I think. Also, some Bristol vans had two vertical frame members between door and end, rather than one ...... I've built one like that in 15mm/ft, but I can't recall which Irish 3ft gauge line it was supplied to.

 

Conclusion? There are only really three effective ways to build a fully wooden-framed closed wagon body (X-braced, I/I\I-braced, or iron-knee-braced), so its no wonder that similarities between those made in different places are more noticeable than differences.

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Nearholmer

[ian]

6 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

And...

 

 

Well, as no one else has risen to the bait...

 

"Oh Sam, what a little beauty!"

Edited April 11, 2019 by ian