RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Martin S-C said: https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/00-app2/joint/mandgn.htm My bad I read "...built to typical Midland designs..." as "...built by the Midland Railway." Still not convinced - the problem being that none of the sketches given there (which in two cases correspond to the known photos) bear any great resemblence to any Midland design, neither do any of the types for which dimensions are given in Tatlow's tabulation (LNER Wagons Vol. 2 p. 191). Tatlow does say "The M&GN usually bought in new stock from commercial wagon builders". All the evidence shows that William Marriott had a free hand to go his own way and, as Edwardian noted, much of it probably dated from Eastern & Midlands days - after all, direct involvement in rolling stock by Derby and to a lesser degree Doncaster only started as recently as 1893. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Annie Posted April 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 11, 2019 I'm impressed that you found any pictures of M&GNJR wagons Stephen. If surviving photos were any guide the casual onlooker would suppose that all they did was run passenger trains or ride about in their locomotives all day. Anyway the whole subject is too difficult and controversial so I'm going back to bed where I'll think about collecting souvenir teaspoons instead. And that is a very nice and oh so rare K's kit of 'Lion' Martin. A very lucky find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Annie said: I'm impressed that you found any pictures of M&GNJR wagons Stephen. Not I - Peter Tatlow. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Annie Posted April 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 12, 2019 I did make a digital model of a Derby built M&GNJR 5 plank wagon in pre-1917 livery and nobody in the Uk Trainz community fainted or needed oxygen when I uploaded it for public consumption so it can't have been too impossible a guess on my part. I may do a GNR based one later when I'm in the mood for making wagons again. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 Looking more carefully at the Banana/Kit-Kat van (only on my screen, I don't have a model in my hands) the corner bracing facing inwards from the end uprights and those facing inwards from the door posts do not seem to line up - so even some plastic section X bracing would need some chopping about of the original moulding to make it function correctly. I'm going to bid on one or two anyway and follow the well-trodden path of many before me and see what I can make of them. The thing with many of these bashes is that once you've used a replacement kit underframe and spent hours fettling the unrealistic body into something passable it would probably have been less effort to just buy a kit anyway. I suppose bashing things about is a different facet of the hobby from kit building and gives a different sense of achievement. And if I can grab a couple of these vans for under a fiver, maybe cheaper too. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Annie Posted April 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 12, 2019 A bit late since you've already completed yours Martin, but a friend on NGRM has just given me this photo. Dated 1956 at Stratford Works. 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 (edited) Very nice Annie, I have not seen that photo before. Transverse ribbing to the roof and a different pattern to the footsteps. There also appear to be tie-bars on the bogies - one of which is bent? And we get a glimpse of the brake gear which is enough for me to add some dummy parts. I have added no brake gear below the body as I have no source of images or drawings for it, but this gives me something to add. The toplight ventilators are also much more bulbous than the model suggests. Thanks very much. Edited April 13, 2019 by Martin S-C 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) A very random encounter on e-Bay netted me these 10 plastic cars. They were given away in the 1980s (I think) with Jet petrol as a promotional gimmick. I came across them quite by accident and bought a set and they turned out to be almost exactly 4mm scale. Looking at the seats inside them possibly they are a tiny bit smaller but they are perfect for my railway. I have collected a good number of horse-drawn vehicles as well as some period commercial vehicles but lacked any passenger cars. These should be enough. There is a 1926 Bugatti and a 1927 Bentley among them but these are not so far off in style and type and should fit in. I included a couple of Andrew Stadden figures in the pics for scale. Edited April 15, 2019 by Martin S-C 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 They look very good, and something I missed out on. In my other life, working for a living, I spent a lot of time driving between our laboratories in North Yorkshire, covering about 25000 miles a year during the 1980s, and all I got were soup bowls and wine glasses. Derek 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 16, 2019 9 hours ago, Mrkirtley800 said: They look very good, and something I missed out on. In my other life, working for a living, I spent a lot of time driving between our laboratories in North Yorkshire, covering about 25000 miles a year during the 1980s, and all I got were soup bowls and wine glasses. Derek I remember the Esso glasses. We got so many we had to give them away. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 16, 2019 I'm surprised they're slightly under 4 mm/ft scale as I would have expected them to be 1/72 - 4.23 mm/ft. I had to look up the Vauxhall Hansom - it was indeed driven from the high seat at the back, like a regular hansom cab. It didn't catch on - only five were built. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2019 They were produced commercially as 'Harbutt's Replicars' and scale has been quoted as anything between 1/72 and 1/87 depending on who was doing the measuring. You'll be in good company using them - ISTR there were a few on the Aire Valley Railway. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2019 13 hours ago, Martin S-C said: A very random encounter on e-Bay netted me these 10 plastic cars. They were given away in the 1980s (I think) with Jet petrol as a promotional gimmick. I came across them quite by accident and bought a set and they turned out to be almost exactly 4mm scale. Looking at the seats inside them possibly they are a tiny bit smaller but they are perfect for my railway. I have collected a good number of horse-drawn vehicles as well as some period commercial vehicles but lacked any passenger cars. These should be enough. There is a 1926 Bugatti and a 1927 Bentley among them but these are not so far off in style and type and should fit in. I included a couple of Andrew Stadden figures in the pics for scale. A neighbour of ours has two of those in 1:1 scale. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 Yes, the hansom struck me as a quirky thing too. At first I didn't realise it was steered from the back of the roof hansom style. I wonder if any survive? I would need to find some old car info online with measurements and check them against the models. For me though, finding any pre-WWI motor vehicles is manna from heaven so if they are not 100% correct I am not going to complain. Gift horses and all that. I think the only ones that would look weird in 1919 are the Hansom, the 1899 Renault and of course the '26 Bugatti. The '27 Bentley could pass as a hand-built pre-war sports car or tourer and I plan to try fitting a hood onto it to see if that helps hide its origins. The Renault might have an excuse behind it as the favoured old transport of a local toff. Digging about a bit on e-Bay I came across this seller in Australia who has some of the vehicles from the same injection moulded range but labelled as "R&L 1970s Kellogg" or "R&L 1970s Old Timers" suggesting cereal packet toys. There are several different ones in the range including a Melbourne cable tram, an American tow truck, the 1837 GWR broad gauge engine "North Star", a 1792 royal state coach and an 1883 McLaren steam tractor. On these the scale is variable with the North Star being very tiny in scale with the road vehicles. Possibly there was a company that injection moulded these toys and then sold them to various companies for marketing. The seller is a dealer in ephemera so his prices are pretty eye-watering plus postage from Australia so not cheap. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?item=292880813423&_ssn=gumboot&rt=nc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 41 minutes ago, ian said: They were produced commercially as 'Harbutt's Replicars' and scale has been quoted as anything between 1/72 and 1/87 depending on who was doing the measuring. You'll be in good company using them - ISTR there were a few on the Aire Valley Railway. A search under "Harbutts Replicars" brings up someone selling 3 for £18 with free postage so worth a go if anyone is interested for a pre-grouping railway. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Harbutts-Plasticine-Ltd-3-x-Replicars-Miniature-Model-Motor-Car/254195545423?hash=item3b2f3c354f:g:YDsAAOSwE9hcrfac&frcectupt=true On the Aire Valley I suspect Derek Naylor used the Harbutts models which appear to be the originals. It looks like the same moulds got re-used for several decades in different guises. Thanks for all the info everyone, groups like this that share knowledge make life so much more pleasant and interesting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bogie Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) I swear I got something like them out of a cereal box when I was a kid. My younger brothers smashed them all up by colliding them with Matchbox cars. Edited April 16, 2019 by Bogie 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronL Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Hi Martin. The Aire Valley Adventure series from RM explicitly states that the vehicle on the layout include two Harbutt's sets, and they're easy to spot in the pictures, including that 1889 Renault. If it didn't work for you as a roadworthy vehicle you could leave it rusting away in some quiet corner of a farmyard with weeds up to the axles and maybe a chicken perched on the bonnet. I think the '26 Bugatti is actually a Type 35 racer (number, no running boards or headlights) which was a very successful design but wouldn't be very likely to be seen on the public roads of the Forest of Dean. It would probably be painted the French Racing Blue colour. I suppose it could appear occasionally on a rail wagon, but then it would be under a tarpaulin which would hide the slight anachronism anyway. Petrol-headedly yours Cam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) Thanks for the info about the Bugatti, Cam. Yes, the racing number is a raised pattern on the plastic moulding so that will need rubbing off. I see two options; that I add headlights, running boards and other items like a windscreen to make it look like a sporty road-legal car or second I paint it as a racing car and depict it in a cameo where it is on show, perhaps outside a garage or something like that. I prefer the first option though. It and the Bentley will be the last two I build and it may be that private cars being so rare in 1919, maybe the other 8 on the layout will be enough. BTW, if anyone modelling pre-grouping wants some, I found more on e-Bay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xharbutts+replicars.TRS0&_nkw=harbutts+replicars&_sacat=0 Edited April 16, 2019 by Martin S-C EDIT: e-Bay link added. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted April 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 16, 2019 Great looking load of cars there Martin. I went straight over to eBay when I saw them. An Oldsmobile Curved Dash is on its way to Oak Hill! Gary 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Oh dear I wish you hadn't shown me them. I was about to make do with a Roden Vauxhall D. Now suddenly I have a 1904 Mercedes, 1913 Bullnose Oxford and 1915 Ford Model T instead.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 They are addictive little blighters aren't they? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 I just think they'll look the part parked up in front in Red Lion Square! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunwurken Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 IIRC PDH said that his Hanson cabs came from cereal packets. He also used some Campbell's Scale Model whitemetal kits from the States but these are H0. He also wrote and illustrated the article 'Motor Vehicles for Pre-Grouping Layouts' in the Jan 1952 RM. Can provide scanned copy if required. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedGemAlchemist Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Wow. Nice to see things have moved on well, Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 This is how my layout suddenly acquired a handful of Matchbox Models of Yesteryear that I don’t really need. I find that all c1870-1920 non-military “tech” has a special appeal because, while it is often very definitely ‘styled ‘, the styling doesn’t make any serious attempt to hide ‘the works’; it is readily understandable “tech”. Military “tech” of the period similarly has a special power to terrify, it speaks of a sort of naked, Gothick violence that nightmares are made from. Modern military kit is N times more destructive, but a lot of it actually looks quite elegant, and hence less disturbingly threatening, at first glance. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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