Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[RedGemAlchemist]

Three cheers for the NMR!

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

Do you definitely want the levers to be at the same level as the baseboard, Martin?

No, that's not a must-have requirement at all. My key concern is depth away from baseboard edge.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Corbs]

I was wondering if they would still work ergonomically if the 'shelf' they are on was on a lower level than the boards, so you could tuck it under the layout slightly, or would it be a pain to reach?

[Annie]

Wow!  Those lever frame installation pictures are stunning.

[wiggoforgold]

Looking at your trestle bridge ideas, if it woukd be of interest I could send you a copy of the plans I drew for the trestles on the viaduct at Diddington, which is a model of the one at Godmanchester on the river Ouse. From memory, I think there are some piers remaining at Houghton, which is quite near you. They were only strong enough to take J15s and Ivatt class 2s, so they might be suitably rustic!

Alex

 

[Martin S-C]

11 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I was wondering if they would still work ergonomically if the 'shelf' they are on was on a lower level than the boards, so you could tuck it under the layout slightly, or would it be a pain to reach?

Its a possible option, yes. I'm open to ideas. I think you could tuck them in/under by a small amount and save maybe 1" to 2" of protrusion but I am wondering if the slight gain in width of operating well would be worth the slight loss in ease of use? People won't be moving back and forth constantly in the operating well but only now and then when drink/food/nature calls so I am not sure I really need to be so obsessive about space constraints. During construction Neil and I have had no issue at all passing each other in the longer/thinner well. He is slim, but I am round, though even so, no issues there. I will stagger the lever frames so they are not opposite each other as well. Possibly the lever frames could be on sliders and pull out like a traverser when that operating position is in use. I like the idea of the lever frame and mimic diagram all being at or near the level of the points, signals and trains - it connects the brain/eye to the task at hand. Neil suggested very large mimic diagrams fixed to the wall beyond the layout but I decided I didn't want the information placed so separately from the levers even though full sized signal boxes had diagrams placed in that position. I am also keen to have a sky backscene right to the ceiling without any real-world intrusions to break the sense of immersion (so no pictures of locos or station name plates, etc in the railway room at all.)
 

8 minutes ago, Annie said:

Wow!  Those lever frame installation pictures are stunning.

They are grotesquely gorgeous aren't they?

[Martin S-C]

1 minute ago, wiggoforgold said:

Looking at your trestle bridge ideas, if it woukd be of interest I could send you a copy of the plans I drew for the trestles on the viaduct at Diddington, which is a model of the one at Godmanchester on the river Ouse. From memory, I think there are some piers remaining at Houghton, which is quite near you. They were only strong enough to take J15s and Ivatt class 2s, so they might be suitably rustic!

Alex

 

Absolutely! Could you PM them or do you need my e-mail?

[Nearholmer]

I know it would be a PITA to arrange, but having the diagram above the lever frame is ergonomically far better. With it below you have "look through your hand" to see it while operating the frame.

[wiggoforgold]

18 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Absolutely! Could you PM them or do you need my e-mail? 

I'll PM them. Early start tomorrow, so I'm off to bed now. I'll scan them and send them tomorrow.

Alex

 

[Martin S-C]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I know it would be a PITA to arrange, but having the diagram above the lever frame is ergonomically far better. With it below you have "look through your hand" to see it while operating the frame.

Good point. Its not a complete no-no, and not really a PITA at all. I was trying to avoid too much "works" impinging on the 4mm scale scene but a tidy varnished wood frame around it with stone-effect plastic sheet on the model side (or even a low relief building in the old school style where a 3-sided signal cabin model contained the full size toy frame) would go some way to lessen the intrusion. It implies a measure of integration with frame-into-scene so that the low relief building is in a logical place but its by no means hard to achieve.

[Martin S-C]

A fairly quickly drawn mimic panel for the smallest station on the line, first stop on the branch. As Nearholmer very wonderfully suggested many many pages back, and which idea I've taken up, the branch will just be controlled with stop boards (fixed red discs) outside each station where all trains halt and signal with a whistle. Once the porter-signalman has ensured the station precincts are clear, he sets the points and "calls on" the train by waving a green flag out of his cabin window. He would telephone the next station before sending the train onwards where the sequence is repeated. The stop boards also mark the limit of shunt moves.

 

Coggles Causeway therefore needs 4 levers.

Comments please.

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Martin S-C
edited plan to add FPLs

[Annie]

Does that mean that you're going to have an animated porter/signalman with a green flag operated by No.4 lever Martin?

 

Nice looking diagram by the way, - I like the fancy curly bits in the corners.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Annie
more words needed

[Martin S-C]

Yes, that's the plan, operated by a servo - he should stick his head out with arm outstretched and the flag will be a small square of the flimsiest green material I can find. Any suggestions?

I'll need 2 of these on the branch, for the other one I'd like to try using a standing figure on the platform who raises his arm.

 

Megapoints do some very nice digitally operated servos that have a random bounce effect for semaphore arms but I think they'll work for this application too.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Caley Jim]

3 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

....... and the flag will be a small square of the flimsiest green material I can find. Any suggestions?
 

A piece of thin tissue paper soaked in green acrylic paint? 

 

Jim 

[Annie]

Ted Polet has a standing figure that raises a green flag on his amazing narrow gauge layout.  I'm not sure if he used a servo or a mechanical linkage though.

 

I had a figure that held out a green flag from an open signal box window on a layout I built during my early 20s.  It was a very simple pushrod operated system with all of the workings hidden under the base of the signal box.  I got the idea from an old copy of RM, - don't ask me which issue though.

[Martin S-C]

28 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

A piece of thin tissue paper soaked in green acrylic paint? 

 

I'd like it to be flexible so it flops about when he sticks his arm out. I can only think of silk but I know that frays at the edges.

 

18 minutes ago, Annie said:

Ted Polet has a standing figure that raises a green flag on his amazing narrow gauge layout.  I'm not sure if he used a servo or a mechanical linkage though.

 

I had a figure that held out a green flag from an open signal box window on a layout I built during my early 20s.  It was a very simple pushrod operated system with all of the workings hidden under the base of the signal box.  I got the idea from an old copy of RM, - don't ask me which issue though.

I think I've seen that old RM... I may even have taken pics of that article. I shall go rummage.

A mechanical linkage may be just easier - and cheaper.

[Annie]

From memory it was all very simple Martin.  I built mine up using bits of Meccano and a couple of pieces of stripwood.  The signal box was a fairly small one I'd made from card and all I needed to do was cut a slot in the floor and modify one of the windows so it was slid back into an open position.  The figure was a very basic plastic one, but all you ever saw of him was his head and an outstretched arm holding a flag.  At first I just used the moulded plastic flag that was an original part of the figure, but later I did something with a short piece of wire and some painted tissue paper.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Annie
fumble brain

[Northroader]

Presumably we’re working passenger trains through the station, so that mr. Board of trade would require you to fit  facing point locks at either end of the loop, 1&2, so two more levers needed for those. Painted blue and always in the pulled position, you just return them back to normal when you want to unlock the point to move it, then pull them straightaway after.

[Nearholmer]

If passenger trains use the loop, No.3 will need an FPL too, I think. And, the siding needs to be trapped, unless it falls towards the buffers and HM Inspector believes that to be sufficient protection against escaping wagons.

 

And, while you search for flimsy green things, you might wish to consider how your porter/signalman will signal during periods of darkness, fog and falling snow.

 

 

[Martin S-C]

On 14/05/2019 at 20:32, Northroader said:

Presumably we’re working passenger trains through the station, so that mr. Board of trade would require you to fit  facing point locks at either end of the loop, 1&2, so two more levers needed for those. Painted blue and always in the pulled position, you just return them back to normal when you want to unlock the point to move it, then pull them straightaway after.

 

On 14/05/2019 at 20:46, Nearholmer said:

If passenger trains use the loop, No.3 will need an FPL too, I think. And, the siding needs to be trapped, unless it falls towards the buffers and HM Inspector believes that to be sufficient protection against escaping wagons.

 

And, while you search for flimsy green things, you might wish to consider how your porter/signalman will signal during periods of darkness, fog and falling snow.

I don't intend to model functioning FPLs but could have a combined black/blue lever on each turnout that needs a lock to represent a combined lock and point lever.

I wanted to avoid trap points as actual turnout models but could fake them up where they are really necessary using some scrap rails. Having the siding falling to the stop block also sounds good, though sidings were customarily laid a few inches lower than running lines to deal with this problem.

Bear in mind the Madder Valley is my inspiration here, with all the character that entails, so I don't wish to become too involved in the nitty gritty of correct BoT rules.

 

On 14/05/2019 at 19:16, Annie said:

From memory it was all very simple Martin.  I built mine up using bits of Meccano and a couple of pieces of stripwood.  The signal box was a fairly small one I'd made from card and all I needed to do was cut a slot in the floor and modify one of the windows so it was slid back into an open position.  The figure was a very basic plastic one, but all you ever saw of him was his head and an outstretched arm holding a flag.  At first I just used the moulded plastic flag that was an original part of the figure, but later I did something with a short piece of wire and some painted tissue paper.

Thanks. That sounds a nice easy little project. It also feels like using up a lever on the frame would be wasted expense.

Here's the mimic diagram for the next stop down the branch. This one bothers me a little as the quarry and wood distillation works sidings both lie open to the passing loop when the crossovers are in the normal position. This doesn't look correct to me but unless each of the four turnouts is operated singly (which also feels wrong) I am not sure what the correct solution would be.

 

 

And for reference the actual track layout. Upside down due to this being the way the operator will face it.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Martin S-C
edited plan to add FPLs

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

 

I don't intend to model functioning FPLs but could have a combined black/blue lever on each turnout that needs a lock to represent a combined lock and point lever.

I wanted to avoid trap points as actual turnout models but could fake them up where they are really necessary using some scrap rails. Having the siding falling to the stop block also sounds good, though sidings were customarily laid a few inches lower than running lines to deal with this problem.

Bear in mind the Madder Valley is my inspiration here, with all the character that entails, so I don't wish to become too involved in the nitty gritty of correct BoT rules.

 

Thanks. That sounds a nice easy little project. It also feels like using up a lever on the frame would be wasted expense.

Here's the mimic diagram for the next stop down the branch. This one bothers me a little as the quarry and wood distillation works sidings both lie open to the passing loop when the crossovers are in the normal position. This doesn't look correct to me but unless each of the four turnouts is operated singly (which also feels wrong) I am not sure what the correct solution would be.

 

 

And for reference the actual track layout. Upside down due to this being the way the operator will face it.

 

Having some FPL levers can be useful in simplifying your interlocking.

[uax6]

For your Catspaw halt, you need to trap the two sidings. Now what you might do is to have the siding points normal to the loop, and have traps on both the loop and the sidings, then you are covered.

 

As for your levers, try and get the quadrant at baseboard level, they are much easier to use that way.

 

Using economical FPL's is probably the way forward for you!

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

I think it might be possible to make a case that no trapping beyond what is shown in the diagram is needed at Catspaw:

 

- the loop is not to be used by passenger trains;

 

- therefore the passenger line is protected against straying wagons by the lay of the points as shown;

 

- the only period of risk of incursion by straying wagons is when the road is set for a train to enter or leave the loop, that is when a train moves between passenger and goods areas, which is a perfectly ordinary, and accepted, risk where goods lines join passenger lines.

 

As shown, it looks odd, because we are used to seeing loops that can be used by passenger trains - this isn’t one, it’s a double ended siding in effect.

 

Many stations were like this, so worth checking the prototype. The Watlington branch had a few, and looking at photos of Aston Rowant and Chinnor, I think the protection is exactly as Martin has drawn Catspaw, and I'm fairly sure that goods trains could "lay by" at these stations to let passenger trains past, and I don't think there were any signals needed, I have a feeling that it was done somehow using the electric token system ......... see if you can get Stationmaster involved, he will know.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Regularity]

This is quite similar to your situation:

Interesting in that no. 2 siding has a crossover worked from the box at one end (lever 6) but that the turnouts at the other end are hand operated.

Note also that turnout 9 and disc 14 are superfluous to your needs. Obviously, you are using “stop and proceed” operations and presumably trains do not pass here, so no need for signals as this is not a block post?

 

The facing point locks in this example are unlocked when the lever is in the normal position. They would not be required for access into the sidings, so would only be reversed (pulled) to lock the points in the normal position. Until they are reversed, the licking is not proved and signals cannot be released. If you look at the numbering, you can see how a “run” of lever reverses operates.

For example, an up train passing through (or stopping) will require levers 4,3 and then 2. A down train would have 11, 12 and then 13. In both cases, the starting  signal (3 or 12) would require the block in advance to have been requested, cleared and accepted. If not, the levers remain normal.

A train running into the loop(s) would be brought to a stand at the home signal before the crossover was reversed. Without a copy of the locking table, I cannot say if a movement into the sidings would be flagged by the signalman, or use the home signals.

 

Hope that helps in some way. Personally, I would go for a small 2-lever ground frame at each end of the loop, with facing point lock and crossover levers, all released by a key on the train staff.

[Northroader]

A good place to look, I’ve just discovered, is the Lynton & Barnstaple. Apparently they used an “economical” combined point and f.p.l. Lever, which you could equate to a single lever. There’s a nice diagram of Chelfham doing what you want on three levers, but then with another four levers working home and start signals in each direction, which buried in your subconscious you’re really craving for, instead of fannying about with flags?

Theyve just won a signalling award for a restoration of the installation at Woody Bay, four levers just squeezed into a diddy little shed.

http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/railco/minor/lb-boxes.html