Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Titanius Anglesmith]

7 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Hi Jim, thanks. The mimic diagram is oriented in the position the model railway operator faces the baseboard; that is the signal box model is on the opposite side. I thought this was the easiest layout for the operators in case people operate this station who are not very familiar with the model. So for the 12" to 1ft operator, up to Nether Madder (NM) is to his right and down to Puddlebrook (PB) is to his left. This is the OPPOSITE of how a 4mm to 1ft signalman would view the station layout.

 

I think (though am not 100% sure) that all the numbered levers you referred to are therefore the reverse of what I will need. The NM levers will be on the right of the frame and the PB ones on the left. I know this is absolutely wrong for the placing of the model signal box, but it is what it is. I think the model signal box marked in that location is the best position as it allows a clear view into the tunnel mouth as well as a view around the curved tracks in the up direction. The signalman also has a clear view of the majority of branch train movements. I think siting the model box anywhere else within station precincts would not give such clear views of movements but am happy to move it elsewhere if a better site can be found. Ideally it should face the tracks but on the branch side of the model so that the 12" to 1ft signal man has the same orientation as the 4mm to 1ft chappie.

 

Im not sure if this will help or muddy the waters further, but.....

 

Some companies placed their lever frames at the rear of the 'box, in which case your signalman will be facing the same way as your operator. Would that make the numbering easier to follow for the operator?

[Nick C]

You can put points 11 and 12 on one lever, and 8 & 19 - both would be worked as crossovers, as you've done with 5. The flour mill siding would be set normal into the siding - this protects the running lines from any runaway from the branch. I would add an outer home at the Nether Madder end, that then allows you to accept a train from NM while still being able to run round the branch train. Some companies would have the Nether Madder end points normal to P1, others normal to P2 - your choice!

 

I reckon the following (taking North to be the top of the diagram). 1. Up outer home. 2. Up home to P1. 3. Up home to P3. 4. Up starter from P1. 5. Up branch home. 6. Up starter from P3. 7. West end loop points. 8. East end loop points. 9. East end branch points. 10. West end branch points. 11. Dock siding points. 12. Creamery siding points. 13. Down starter from P3. 14. Branch starter from P3. 15. Down starter from P2. 16. Down home to P3. 17. Down home to P2. 18. Down outer home.

 

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

I'm not sure if this will help or muddy the waters further, but.....

 

Some companies placed their lever frames at the rear of the 'box, in which case your signalman will be facing the same way as your operator. Would that make the numbering easier to follow for the operator?

That actually helps a lot and will be the excuse I shall use. Thanks!

I have reversed the frame symbol on the signal box graphic.

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

You can put points 11 and 12 on one lever, and 8 & 19 - both would be worked as crossovers, as you've done with 5. The flour mill siding would be set normal into the siding - this protects the running lines from any runaway from the branch. I would add an outer home at the Nether Madder end, that then allows you to accept a train from NM while still being able to run round the branch train. Some companies would have the Nether Madder end points normal to P1, others normal to P2 - your choice!

 

I reckon the following (taking North to be the top of the diagram). 1. Up outer home. 2. Up home to P1. 3. Up home to P3. 4. Up starter from P1. 5. Up branch home. 6. Up starter from P3. 7. West end loop points. 8. East end loop points. 9. East end branch points. 10. West end branch points. 11. Dock siding points. 12. Creamery siding points. 13. Down starter from P3. 14. Branch starter from P3. 15. Down starter from P2. 16. Down home to P3. 17. Down home to P2. 18. Down outer home.

 

I thought about 11 and 12 but kept them separate as there are three moves there: 1) from the branch platform over 11 and down the branch to Coggles Causeway (CC), 2) from the branch platform over 11 and into the exchange siding, and 3) from the branch platform over 11 and across the slip to access the down main.

 

Or am I just getting my slip routing confused and 5 (now 7) will handle the crossover to the down main?

Combining 8 & 19 does make sense, as does setting 19's normal position to the flour mill.

So, how's this?

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Stubby47]

If the bobby was facing the levers and the tracks, starting from the left end of the station (as he views it) and also from the 'UP' direction, wouldn't the levers start at 1  (rather than 18 as above)?

[Martin S-C]

Go back a few posts, Stu, to see why it was done this way: the bobby is facing the levers, but not the tracks.

 

EDIT: Just had a thought - 12 doesn't need an FPL does it? Or should I keep it in case engineering works or some other reason requires wrong road running?

Edited June 25, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Stubby47]

Ah, got you, it's so the numbers/levers start from the left for the operator... to make it easier.  Will go to the back of the class and sit in the corner.

 

(Though as a bobby, I'd be cursing the design, having to constantly twist my back to see when it was the right moment to release a lever).

 

As a counterpoint, chatting with a visitor to the Crantock show at the weekend, once the operators have become familiar with the 'box', the lever numbers don't actually matter.

[Nick C]

That looks good to me - yes, the Slip 7B will handle routing to either the exchange siding (normal) or the main (reversed) from either the down platform (with 10 normal) or the branch platform (with 10 reversed). You don't need an FPL on 12 as there's no signalled passenger moves over it - if you had to run wrong road over it, it'd have to be plugged & clipped and the movement handsignalled over it.

 

So you can now imagine the movements the signalman would make - he gets offered the up train from Puddlebrook, accepts it and reverses 8. As he gets train entering section, he offers it on to NM, and when accepted, pulls off 1, 2 and 4. As the train approaches he goes out with the SJ-NM staff (I'm imagining train staff and ticket on a low-budget line like this...), and hands it to the driver in exchange for the PB-SJ one. He checks the tail lamp is present, then returns to the box, returns 1 & 2, and sends train out of section to PB. As the train pulls away he sends train entering section to NM, then returns 4 once it's clear.

 

Then perhaps next is a down through - so he returns 8 and pulls 7, and sits down with his paper. Train out of section from NM, then he offers us the down. We're already clear and set up, so our signalman accepts it. When NM sends train entering section, he offers it on to PB, and pulls 18, 17, 15, and a similar sequence follows.

 

If you've got a crossing move, you need to consider the gradients - you don't want to stop a train on an uphill gradient if you can avoid it. From what I remember it's uphill to NM and down to PB? This means we need to bring in the up train first, so the bobby's going to have a lot of walking to do. With both trains entering section, the frame has all the levers normal. We can't pull off for the up arrival yet, because of rule 39A - which states that if a stop signal is at danger (as 4 must be, as there's a train in the section in advance), you cannot clear the preceding stop signal until the train is near it and has been brought nearly to a stand - effectively cautioning the driver that the next signal is at danger. So once the up train approaches, we can pull off 1*, then 2, then go out to collect the staff. We can then send train out of section to PB, and offer him the down train. Once accepted (and the up train is clear of the points), we can return 1 and 2, reverse 7 and clear 15.

 

Once the up has come to a stand, we can pull off 18 and 17 for the down, and go out to swap staffs with him. Get the guard or platform staff to verify the tail lamp is there to save walking the length of the platform! Back to the box, return 18 & 17, send train out of section to NM, and offer him the up. Reverse 8, pull 4, then we've got to walk to the other end of the platform to give him the staff...

 

You can tell I'm currently learning to become a signalman, can't you...

 

*I'm wondering, actually, if 1 is needed. You're not going to shunt that way as you've got the exchange siding.

[Nick C]

24 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Ah, got you, it's so the numbers/levers start from the left for the operator... to make it easier.  Will go to the back of the class and sit in the corner.

 

(Though as a bobby, I'd be cursing the design, having to constantly twist my back to see when it was the right moment to release a lever).

 

As a counterpoint, chatting with a visitor to the Crantock show at the weekend, once the operators have become familiar with the 'box', the lever numbers don't actually matter.

 

You're not normally standing there poised to release a lever, you'd be more likely to be standing at the window watching the movement ready to step back to the frame once it was clear. The signalman's view is often surprisingly limited too - you're often waiting for a track circuit to clear or for a call from the crew to let you know a movement is clear, especially if it's at the other end of the station, and things like canopies and footbridges are in the way. Of course the NM&GS probably wouldn't have track circuits, I doubt a light railway would have been able to afford them.

[Martin S-C]

I imagine that's the case, Stu. Once any unfamiliar system becomes familiar, everything is second nature. I just foresee major operating sessions being some weeks apart with a rotating crew of operators so I wanted simplicity and clarity first and foremost with realism taking a back seat (in this case).

Nick - awesome, that description makes everything seem like we have it correct now. I imagine there were no overweight bobbies in steam days.

 

1 actually controls a branch junction where the diverging route goes off into make-believe-land and becomes the circuit under the layout that represents trains going to Hereford or Gloucester. There is actually a dolly on that signal with arm (1A?) that controls access to the diverging route, its just that with the way the model has been constructed the diverging route will be controlled from Puddlebrook. I know that isn't correct but its a conundrum I haven't found a better way of managing yet.

It looks like this:

[Nick C]

I think it'd be better to have that signal controlled from Puddlebrook as well then - in reality it'd have it's own 'box, with separate block sections PB->Junction, Junction->SJ, Junction->Hereford, and a pair of home signals controlling access to the junction from SJ and Hereford. It could always have it's own little 5-lever frame on the side of the Puddlebrook control panel? Otherwise the Snarling signalman could clear that signal when the route was set for the branch!

 

You could have the signal slotted, so that it only clears when both the Junction signalman and the Snarling signalman clear it, but again that's more complexity than I'd expect from a light railway.

[Martin S-C]

Thanks Nick, that's food for thought. Physical distances on the model mean its impractical to have a separate block section of course even though in reality there would be.

I agree though it would be better to have it controlled from PB. Sighting it from SJ is going to be almost impossible anyway due to the intervening scenery.

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Thanks Nick, that's food for thought. Physical distances on the model mean its impractical to have a separate block section of course even though in reality there would be.

I agree though it would be better to have it controlled from PB. Sighting it from SJ is going to be almost impossible anyway due to the intervening scenery.

Nick's idea is a good one. I will be doing something similar on the Mid-Cornwall Lines. At the real Newquay there was a signal box and another a mile or so away at the triangular Tolcarn Junction. On the layout, these two locations will be much closer together and controlled by one person from a single lever frame at the terminus Pentowan.

[DonB]

Not intending to muddy the waters, since my knowledge of signalling practice would fit comfortably on pin head....

As I understand your intentions,  you (your operators) will have in front of them, the diagram and a human operated miniature lever frame suitably labelled with the point numbers as outlined  so clearly in the posts above, Frame and diagram to have the same orientation.

If so, then the location / orientation of the (model) box and bobby do not enter into the practicalities of operating the layout, apart from the desire to get things "looking correct" and the little problem of the flag waving from the box window ! 

I'll retire back into my armchair now!  

Edited June 25, 2019 by DonB
wrong spacing of text.

[chuffinghell]

You could fit everything I know about signalling on a postage stamp and still have room for an elephants foot 

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, DonB said:

Not intending to muddy the waters, since my knowledge of signalling practice would fit comfortably on pin head....

As I understand your intentions,  you (your operators) will have in front of them, the diagram and a human operated miniature lever frame suitably labelled with the point numbers as outlined  so clearly in the posts above, Frame and diagram to have the same orientation.

If so, then the location / orientation of the (model) box and bobby do not enter into the practicalities of operating the layout, apart from the desire to get things "looking correct" and the little problem of the flag waving from the box window ! 

I'll retire back into my armchair now!  

Yes, Don, exactly correct. I probably have one of these minor undiagnosed mental conditions however (that we all have to one extent or another) that makes me want to do it properly (quote unquote) and if I can't my brain needs sufficient reasoning not to - just hand waving issues away is something I can't do!

 

And now... onwards to Puddlebrook!

 

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Nick C]

Probably too late to change it now, but there ought to be some kind of trap on the exit to the colliery sidings, to stop any runaways from fouling the main line.

 

Are the exchange sidings freight only? If so, what is platform 1 used for?

[RedGemAlchemist]

15 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

undiagnosed mental conditions however (that we all have to one extent or another) that makes me want to do it properly (quote unquote) and if I can't my brain needs sufficient reasoning not to - just hand waving issues away is something I can't do!

Sounds like you might have a form of OCD like I do. 

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

Probably too late to change it now, but there ought to be some kind of trap on the exit to the colliery sidings, to stop any runaways from fouling the main line.

 

Are the exchange sidings freight only? If so, what is platform 1 used for?

The first item of pointwork beyond the private sidings fence is a double slip and the normal position for that will be into a headshunt, so I hope that will suffice.

 

The exchange sidings have a fictional through line to the Madder Valley Railway, so passenger traffic uses the line. They are my fiddle yard, in effect.

Diagram for them:

 

I have not bothered with FPLs here, as its really all fiction. There is simply a need to operate the model points with a lever frame, as elsewhere. The Back Siding is the supposed line onwards to the MVR which is where, in my imagination, passenger trains would go to and come from.

 

EDIT: Photo showing colliery headshunt.

 

Left of the loco is the line down to the Exchange Sidings and left of that the branch. The point to the left of the loco is the exit points from Platform 1 of Puddlebrook.

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Nick C]

Ah, ok - the slip dodn't show on the snippet of track plan you posted.

 

So in effect the road between P2 and P3 is both the up line for the MVR branch and the down line for the main? or will most MVR trains use P1 in both directions? Do you want to allow passenger movements from GS to P2? Are you having reversing moves between GS and MVR using P2?

[Martin S-C]

So in effect the road between P2 and P3 is both the up line for the MVR branch and the down line for the main?

I hadn't seen it that way but it can be used like that, yes. P4 is definitely an up line for the main. P2/P3 is an additional up line in busy moments.

 

will most MVR trains use P1 in both directions?

I wanted the layout here to be as flexible as possible as this is going to be one of the busiest locations on the network, so I do need P1 and P2/P3 to be fully bi-directional.

 

Do you want to allow passenger movements from GS to P2?

Yes.

 

Are you having reversing moves between GS and MVR using P2?

Yes.

[Nick C]

Ok, so here's my first thoughts... I've put it with the route through the station using the down reversible P2/4 as the main route, you might want to change that. Again I'll use west for the left-hand end, east for the right-hand end for easre of typing...

 

1. Up main home to P2

2. Up main home to P4  - 1 & 2 on a bracket before the colliery points

3. Up starter from P2

4. Up starter from P4

5. Up branch home to P1

6. Up branch home to P2

7. Up starter from P1

8. #4 road west end points

9. #1 road west end points - crossover, normal for branch<->p1 & main<->p2

10. #4 road east end points

11. #1 road east end points

12. dock road west end points (crossover)

13. dock road east end points (crossover)

14. spare (actually controlling the hand points in the stone company's siding - unless these are on a separate switch, then delete this one)

15. Down branch starter from P1

16. Down branch starter from P2

17. Down main starter from P2

18. Down home to P1

19. Down home to P2

 

I've not added a down outer home as you mentioned the junction just off in that direction, or any shunt signals

 

[Nick C]

ah, forgot the colliery exit - that'd probably be controlled by a local ground frame, locked by a lever in the 'box.

[Martin S-C]

Awesome Nick. I shall take a look at this more carefully when I get a moment tomorrow.

[Stubby47]

Why is P1/2 an island platform? 

Why has the P2/P3 line got two platform faces?

Could the line for P1 be moved north of the platform?

You'd still have the same number of lines, just one less platform number.

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Why is P1/2 an island platform? 

Why has the P2/P3 line got two platform faces?

Could the line for P1 be moved north of the platform?

You'd still have the same number of lines, just one less platform number.

1) One side serves a branch line, one side serves a main line. The west crossover is an aid to use both sides bi-directionally in times of heavy traffic.

 

2) Ventnor IoW was in my head when I drew this up.

3) Possibly. But I chose not to do that because I wanted quirky.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Martin S-C