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I feel very guilty about using out-of-period models and RTR simple ones when there is so much awesome modelling here on RMWeb. My problem is having a need for so many wagons to work the colliery that if I were to kit build or heavily modify I'd never get anywhere :(

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11 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Perhaps it should all just be tramway until we get to the main line terminus.

 

Yes, more likely that the entire branch would be classed as a tramway, with operation at very restricted speed and, possibly, skirted, condensing, and speed-limited locos, although there were numerous tramways where those stipulations seem not to have applied.

 

The W&U, for instance, entered signaled territory just short of Wisbech, where, I think, was its only signal, necessary because the passenger trams terminated within the railway station on railway tracks.

 

Most other tramways were either completely isolated from railways (often by gauge, 3'6" vs Standard), or only interchanged via "goods" connections, so didn't need any signals at all. The Wantage is a good example, because the passenger trams terminated outside of the railway station at Wantage Road, and the only connection tramway/railway was for goods wagons.

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Thanks, that's helpful. I will place a home signal outside the main terminus then. I think another stop board or some other warning/instruction should go just outside Witts End as well, after the line leaves the tunnel westbound and before the first houses. Here trains (trams?) will come to a stand, whistle, check for road traffic and proceed at 5mph across the public roadway and along the town's high street. Prior to this point the line will be very rural and the slow speed plus whistle should be enough when crossing roads which occurs at two other places.

With no outer home or advanced starter on the branch this lets me remove two more levers from the main terminus frame. I could place a fixed distant to remind drivers of their approach to the home.

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53 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Thanks, that's helpful. I will place a home signal outside the main terminus then. I think another stop board or some other warning/instruction should go just outside Witts End as well, after the line leaves the tunnel westbound and before the first houses. Here trains (trams?) will come to a stand, whistle, check for road traffic and proceed at 5mph across the public roadway and along the town's high street. Prior to this point the line will be very rural and the slow speed plus whistle should be enough when crossing roads which occurs at two other places.

With no outer home or advanced starter on the branch this lets me remove two more levers from the main terminus frame. I could place a fixed distant to remind drivers of their approach to the home.

If you're going to do that, place the home signal roughly where the outer home would have been, at 440 yards (adjust for compression, as that scales to over 5m at 4mm/ft! ) from the junction - otherwise your signalman wouldn't be able to do anything all the time a train was on the branch! 

 

To explain - before a signalman can accept a train, their line must be clear to the minimum clearance point, usually 440 yards from the outermost home signal - basically in case that train over-runs the signal. You then have to keep that bit of line clear until the train arrives (or is stopped at that signal). In the case of a one-engine-in-steam branch, you're effectively accepting the train as soon as it leaves you, as you have no idea when it'll come back - you're sending it from yourself to yourself.

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There must, surely, be the ability to reduce the clearing distance in the case of a tram? Even if it "hit the stick" at its own full line speed, it ought to be able to "stop on a sixpence", because that's what it has to do everywhere else in its travels.

 

I did have a copy of the diagram for Wisbech, but I can't find it ....... will keep looking.

 

As a PS, IIRC the W&U did have a signal where it left railway formation (it was very firmly a tramway at this point, but  running in parallel to the railway) and joined the road, controlled by Wisbech Harbour Junction SB. That, I think, was interlocked with a LC on the adjacent ‘main line’, and was designed to prevent the tram leaping out of the shrubbery into a line of road vehicles waiting at the crossing gates, because the sight-line was poor.

Edited by Nearholmer
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2 hours ago, Nick C said:

If you're going to do that, place the home signal roughly where the outer home would have been, at 440 yards (adjust for compression, as that scales to over 5m at 4mm/ft! ) from the junction - otherwise your signalman wouldn't be able to do anything all the time a train was on the branch!

I think it will have to go where the advanced starter is (see green dot below) as SSE of the suburban villas the tramway runs on a road and stopping a train there could impede road traffic. I think there may be a casual stopping place near the road junction where the villas are anyway for people to hop on and off to access the road that runs off through the backscene there. A fixed distant could be where the outer home was on your suggested plan, possibly on the east side of the line in the hedge ;)

Nether_Madder_Signals_01_edit.jpg.16c1c5ef197b60cdb043a65fd3687ec0.jpg

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8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

As a PS, IIRC the W&U did have a signal where it left railway formation (it was very firmly a tramway at this point, but  running in parallel to the railway) and joined the road, controlled by Wisbech Harbour Junction SB. That, I think, was interlocked with a LC on the adjacent ‘main line’, and was designed to prevent the tram leaping out of the shrubbery into a line of road vehicles waiting at the crossing gates, because the sight-line was poor.

I've now got an image stuck in my head of a predatory tram engine leaping out of the bushes and violently attacking cars.

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8 hours ago, Annie said:

I've now got an image stuck in my head of a predatory tram engine leaping out of the bushes and violently attacking cars.

And I've now got the same image in my head, but as animated by Terry Gilliam...

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I do enjoy weathering quicklime "cottage top" wagons. There's nothing else quite like them. This one looks a bit naff in the photos but in the flesh it looks better and I'm quite pleased with it.

Dsc06596.jpg.76eb2aa2b33def900361e0b4f4a897e2.jpg

 

Dsc06597.jpg.29faa2a32ca23eddca0a88b7fd2b56e7.jpg

 

Dsc06598.jpg.e12b0492d7277c6ba5affc7a624e6804.jpg

 

Dsc06599.jpg.db1eded9a3ff826139326f6ed61e7c8f.jpg

Edited by Martin S-C
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On 08/10/2018 at 19:55, Martin S-C said:

plus floor battens, insulation and sheet flooring.

Hi Martin,

 

Given a fair wind, I hope to be moving to a garage with house, and am looking to line the garage to make it useable, etc. Been reading up on conversions, etc, and noticed that most people recommend having the flooring joists raised slightly above the concrete to allow air to flow. Have you done this, or not found it necessary?

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Martin will doubtless answer, but I will also tell you that I didn’t, I simply painted the concrete floor.

 

Contrary to all good advice, I’ve found it perfectly fine without a raised/insulated floor, and take the view that if that was necessary, it would have been necessary before flooring the ground-floor of the house too, which it wasn’t.

 

I wouldn’t stand in the ex-garage in bare feet, but neither would I on the floor indoors, although that has karndean (up-market Lino) on it, rather than blue floor paint!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Hi Martin,

 

Given a fair wind, I hope to be moving to a garage with house, and am looking to line the garage to make it useable, etc. Been reading up on conversions, etc, and noticed that most people recommend having the flooring joists raised slightly above the concrete to allow air to flow. Have you done this, or not found it necessary?

Its what I chose to have done. I find that even a roll of carpeting on a concrete floor gets you cold feet after a while, so yeah, I had a wet barrier sheet laid over the concrete then 2x2 joists laid on this, rolls of insulation between those with chipboard sheets over this.

Dsc01798.jpg

Having now lived with a garage railway room for 2 years and been using it over the winter I would only recommend it for a model room if there really is no other alternative in the property. In the cold and wet you have this barrier of a rainy garden to get across and even with a covered porch or walkway connecting the two, its still a bit "shed like" even if properly insulated.

In summer you will certainly benefit from proper insulation, mine is again just 3x2 battens with plasterboard then skimmed with plaster. Between the wall joists is insulation sheet and there's a massive shed load of insulation roll under the pitched roof above the false ceiling. In the pic above all the blue rolls at the far end went up above the false ceiling. The place stays nice and cool in summer, very pleasant.

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8 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Its what I chose to have done. I find that even a roll of carpeting on a concrete floor gets you cold feet after a while, so yeah, I had a wet barrier sheet laid over the concrete then 2x2 joists laid on this, rolls of insulation between those with chipboard sheets over this.

Dsc01798.jpg

Having now lived with a garage railway room for 2 years and been using it over the winter I would only recommend it for a model room if there really is no other alternative in the property. In the cold and wet you have this barrier of a rainy garden to get across and even with a covered porch or walkway connecting the two, its still a bit "shed like" even if properly insulated.

In summer you will certainly benefit from proper insulation, mine is again just 3x2 battens with plasterboard then skimmed with plaster. Between the wall joists is insulation sheet and there's a massive shed load of insulation roll under the pitched roof above the false ceiling. In the pic above all the blue rolls at the far end went up above the false ceiling. The place stays nice and cool in summer, very pleasant.


Great advice from Martin, based on the slings and arrows of practical experience.


The acme of perfection is to insulate outside a solid masonry or concrete garage structure, ideally including the roof joists or rafters. Then you get more space inside, the masonry stays dry, the floor slab stays warm(er), you have thermal mass to help regulate the temperature and you have fewer damp/humidity/condensation problems inside. But obviously that brings a whole bunch of new challenges with it...! And the detailing has to be very carefully designed, especially around the doors and windows. That’s why it’s rarely done as a domestic upgrade.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

Its what I chose to have done. I find that even a roll of carpeting on a concrete floor gets you cold feet after a while, so yeah, I had a wet barrier sheet laid over the concrete then 2x2 joists laid on this, rolls of insulation between those with chipboard sheets over this.

Dsc01798.jpg

Having now lived with a garage railway room for 2 years and been using it over the winter I would only recommend it for a model room if there really is no other alternative in the property. In the cold and wet you have this barrier of a rainy garden to get across and even with a covered porch or walkway connecting the two, its still a bit "shed like" even if properly insulated.

In summer you will certainly benefit from proper insulation, mine is again just 3x2 battens with plasterboard then skimmed with plaster. Between the wall joists is insulation sheet and there's a massive shed load of insulation roll under the pitched roof above the false ceiling. In the pic above all the blue rolls at the far end went up above the false ceiling. The place stays nice and cool in summer, very pleasant.

Thanks, Martin.

It was more the issue of whether or not to have an air gap under the wooden floor which crossed my mind. Already planning on the other two issues of walls and ceilings.

 

In a previous abode, I found that green insulation sheets, topped with hardboard and then self adhesive tiles was more effective than carpet, but it wasn’t as warm as I wanted. Also, I had to leave the house to get into the garage, which although adjacent still meant getting cold/wet/etc, so in the end I bought a PC cupboard and altered it for use as a non-smelly, not too noisy workshop upon which the doors could be closed and mess kept out of the house. Which was fine, but then growing kids, separation and a divorce intervened!

 

One other question, if I may...

 

Where you have your door in the side, have you installed some form of kerb or doorstep, or just have treated wood?

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2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Where you have your door in the side, have you installed some form of kerb or doorstep, or just have treated wood?

The old grotty door was already a couple of inches above the outside garden paving, so the new PVC door also received a step and the usual water run-off step/weather step (not sure of its technical name). Inside the door is flush with the new interior floor as this was raised up by ~3"

Dsc02147.jpg

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4 hours ago, Regularity said:

Hi Martin,

 

Given a fair wind, I hope to be moving to a garage with house, and am looking to line the garage to make it useable, etc. Been reading up on conversions, etc, and noticed that most people recommend having the flooring joists raised slightly above the concrete to allow air to flow. Have you done this, or not found it necessary?

My railway room is a garage. The floor is carpet on concrete, while the walls and ceiling are all insulated. It doesn't get as cold here is where you are but the temperature and humidity inside stay fairly stable at between 15 - 25 degrees C and 45% - 60% RH all year round. Our minimum outside temperature is rarely below 5 degrees.

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6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

My railway room is a garage. The floor is carpet on concrete, while the walls and ceiling are all insulated. It doesn't get as cold here is where you are but the temperature and humidity inside stay fairly stable at between 15 - 25 degrees C and 45% - 60% RH all year round. Our minimum outside temperature is rarely below 5 degrees.

 

That's the solution!!

 

Move to Australia...

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9 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The old grotty door was already a couple of inches above the outside garden paving, so the new PVC door also received a step and the usual water run-off step/weather step (not sure of its technical name). Inside the door is flush with the new interior floor as this was raised up by ~3"

Dsc02147.jpg

 

There are parts of Peterborough where that railway room would be regarded as a house!

 

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On 08/05/2021 at 01:43, Martin S-C said:

Dsc06594.jpg.4776d50b540b9105d2a3861dc0a7fde1.jpg

 

Nice effect. I hope you will forgive me for getting all wagon-didactic if you're going for interior detail. Here's a drawing of an RCH 1923 Specification timber-framed 7-plank end door wagon; the same website has the steel framed version too; there is no significant difference in the interior ironwork. The left-hand side of the elevetion is an exterior view, the right-hand side is looking from the centre-line outwards towards the far side. The key thing to appreciate is that it's not the exterior ironwork that holds the sides of the wagon in place. That's done by the side knees, which are substantial L-shaped brackets bolted to the middle bearers - the transverse beams of the underframe - which taper from 2" thick at the bend to 1" thick at the top. Wagons with end doors also have knees at the door end, otherwise the sides and ends are are held together by the corner plates, reinforced by vertical washer plates on the inside and an internal corner plate for the top plank. The ends are held in place by the external stanchions, of timber (shown in the scrap detail) or steel T-section. On older types of wagons, there would often be vertical washer plates on the inside. 

 

Drawings of the knees and stanchions here and the remaining body ironwork here.

 

On the wagons you've done, how do the side doors open?

Edited by Compound2632
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PS. Don't be misled by looking at 20th century Great Western wagons. They were constructed differently (of course) with exterior knees bolted to the steel solebars and consequently have little interior ironwork - bolt heads directly into the timber, without washers or washer plates. By the 1930s, the LMS had followed suit for merchandise wagons (not sure about the other two groups).

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