Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Martin S-C]

Almost certainly the case. I can pull them in a little. Where the track is very close it will be in a tunnel as well so the ugliness of it is hidden.

[16Brunel]

I first read these as 'turducken" (ie an American roast consisting of a duck inside a chicken inside a turkey), and wondered if you'd taken (further?) leave of your senses!

 

 

Regarding the passing station, is there any particular reason the fascia has to be straight along that section?  Bulging it out by just an inch or two might provide the open space required, especially with the fascia curved (which also means no corners to walk into).  Is the human clearance to the terminus that critically tight?

 

- Scott

[Harlequin]

If the exchange sidings were aligned with, and closer to, the sorting sidings there would be more room for a passing station further to the left. Something like this:

 

(Maybe not quite that far left and a bit deeper into the baseboard.)

 

That has the advantage of the station not being directly in front of the colliery. One signal box could serve both the passing station and the scissors junction.

It also makes the colliery look a bit more "organised", if I can put it that way.

I haven't shown a new position for the brake van siding but I'm sure it could be found a home.

Would the levels and gradients still work?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Harlequin
small typo

[Denbridge]

I'm a great believer in the maxim "less is more" I think you may be in danger of making the scene look crowded by trying to cram in a passing station. In the space available you could have a station or the colliery. Trying to incorporate both would possibly destroy the image you want to create.

 

[Martin S-C]

These are all good ideas and Phil your concept works the best of all the options if I go down that route. The operating well is 36" wide which I think is a comfortable gap for 2x pie-eating humans to pass but into this width will intrude the control panels (which are staggered so they don't cause a pinch point) and these will be about 3" deep minimum to incorporate the lever frames, and more likely nearer 4" deep. Scott - Yes, curving out the fascia by 2" or so is certainly one option but awkward operating wells was one issue I blacklisted as something that bothered me about my first design so I'm keen to not eat into that 36" gap if I can avoid it.

Denbridge - yes, I agree. It will look crowded hence all my soul-searching here. My fear is that if I don't try adding a station I will regret it and if I do add it ... I'll regret it!

[Regularity]

What’s the vertical separation between the exchange sidings and the station?

[Martin S-C]

1 1/4" The link road climbs up at 1 in 54. The colliery itself is another 1/4" above that (short 1 in 35) climb.

Raising it to 1 1/2" would make the gradient 1 in 45. As the station site is so close to the reception roads I've been assuming a retaining wall along there if there's a station. With just the miner's halt it could remain a grassy slope.

More doings...

Three Slaters/POWSides wagon kits completed. Trying very hard not to weather heavily but its damnably tricky! These look dirtier in the photo than they are in the flesh (or plastic).

Edited October 18, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

These are all good ideas and Phil your concept works the best of all the options if I go down that route. The operating well is 36" wide which I think is a comfortable gap for 2x pie-eating humans to pass but into this width will intrude the control panels (which are staggered so they don't cause a pinch point) and these will be about 3" deep minimum to incorporate the lever frames, and more likely nearer 4" deep. Scott - Yes, curving out the fascia by 2" or so is certainly one option but awkward operating wells was one issue I blacklisted as something that bothered me about my first design so I'm keen to not eat into that 36" gap if I can avoid it.

Denbridge - yes, I agree. It will look crowded hence all my soul-searching here. My fear is that if I don't try adding a station I will regret it and if I do add it ... I'll regret it!

Ask yourself if adding a passing point adds anything to the operation. I feel the existing design has more than enough to keep a team of operators more than busy. Too many layouts end up looking unrealistic due to contrivance yet more  operational 'gimmicks' that end up just looking unrealistic and crowded .

I felt you let yourself fall into that trap with the Mk1 layout and it suffered for it. The plan you've developed this time looks great and will be a joy to operate.

 

[Martin S-C]

You make a very good point. I'm still mulling it over...

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Three Slaters/POWSides wagon kits completed. Trying very hard not to weather heavily but its damnably tricky! These look dirtier in the photo than they are in the flesh (or plastic).

Coal wagons carried a very dirty material and i doubt you could overdo the weathering.  I've seen some prototype photos where the lettering was practically obliterated by coal dust.

[Martin S-C]

I've been bumbling about in this subject for a while now and have come to the view that modellers might be over weathering coal wagons... and a lot of rolling stock in general. Of course the period modelled is important; things did go downhill after the Second War and especially towards the end of steam. In many photos I've seen PO coal wagons look clean and so I'm moving away from making them look too dirty. I've been collecting rolling stock for several years for this layout and weathering as I go so I've got a decent haul of filthy wagons already... so these days I'm going for a cleaner look. These were mobile advertising hoardings for their owners and much like lorries today I feel confident that they would have been kept in pretty good condition.

[Denbridge]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I've been bumbling about in this subject for a while now and have come to the view that modellers might be over weathering coal wagons... and a lot of rolling stock in general. Of course the period modelled is important; things did go downhill after the Second War and especially towards the end of steam. In many photos I've seen PO coal wagons look clean and so I'm moving away from making them look too dirty. I've been collecting rolling stock for several years for this layout and weathering as I go so I've got a decent haul of filthy wagons already... so these days I'm going for a cleaner look. These were mobile advertising hoardings for their owners and much like lorries today I feel confident that they would have been kept in pretty good condition.

Yes, totally agree. Prior to WW2 owners generally kept their vehicles pretty clean. They were of course mobile advertising. 

[Regularity]

33 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Yes, totally agree. Prior to WW2 owners generally kept their vehicles pretty clean. They were of course mobile advertising. 

Also, they were returned to their owners.

As of 1 September 1939, they were “pooled” - effectively nationalised - such that I recall reading one merchant saying the only he saw his wagon again was when is passed through on a train which didn’t stop.

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Yes, totally agree. Prior to WW2 owners generally kept their vehicles pretty clean. They were of course mobile advertising. 

 

They were repainted more frequently than were railway-company owned wagons - in the works of Turton, Kelham, Pope et al., we read that typically a PO wagon on simple hire or hire purchase would be on a 7-year contract for maintenance, including repainting at mid term. My own feeling is that wagons could get grimy, the paintwork could uniformly degrade with age, but they did not become tatty to degree one sees in post-second world war photos. I'm not a great believer in rust as a form of weathering in the pre-grouping period.

 

I like that Clee Hill photo. Interesting toggle brake on the 2-plank wagon; wooden brake blocks on that and the 4-plank wagon. Both have tie-bars connecting the axleguards, which is unusual for wagons of such antiquity, I think. I don't see how one could apply sufficient force to the brake to spread the wheelbase, especially with wooden brake blocks!

Edited October 18, 2021 by Compound2632

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Also, they were returned to their owners.

As of 1 September 1939, they were “pooled” - effectively nationalised - such that I recall reading one merchant saying the only he saw his wagon again was when is passed through on a train which didn’t stop.

My understanding is that the government (war department?) intended to return them to their original owners when hostilities ended but then we had a change of government, nationalisation and that plan went out the window. It was why during wartime and just after you see the PO name and details sometimes painted in small lettering on the bottom plank or two near the left side of the solebar. No manufacturer to my knowledge has ever made an RTR wagon liveried in that way and nor has any kit manufacturer who issued pre-printed sides.
 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I like that Clee Hill photo. Interesting toggle brake on the 2-plank wagon; wooden brake blocks on that and the 4-plank wagon. Both have tie-bars connecting the axleguards, which is unusual for wagons of such antiquity, I think. I don't see how one could apply sufficient force to the brake to spread the wheelbase, especially with wooden brake blocks!

I'm guessing its extra bracing in case of overloading, maybe some of those stone wagons might get heavier grade stone like granite dumped in them and your average workman wouldn't realise that some stone types are denser and heavier than others. Coal is coal and coke is coke and have a limited range of weights but different rocks is another matter.

However... !

Today on a Facebook group I saw this image which shows some MR merchandise wagons, some coal wagons and some Lilleshall limestone wagons in sidings. The caption the poster supplied was:

"Another rare photo of the inside of wooden wagons. In this case photographed in South Wales showing a number of Lilleshall Company wagons from Shropshire. I think the wagons were in S Wales for Limestone to feed the Lilleshall Company's blast furnaces."

 

When I saw this I was very excited because the Lilleshall wagons are in a terrible state. Three of them have replaced planks unpainted, one of which looks very dark so might be grey or black and they just all look filthy. Whether stone traffic was especially damaging to wagons or not (maybe due to the loading method?) I don't know. It also struck me that perhaps the company was going through lean times when this picture was taken and they couldn't expend capital on maintaining their wagon fleet as well as they would like.

But as for pre-WWII PO wagons with replaced unpainted planks I think this is the only example I have ever seen. The wagon furthest to the right is so caked in stone powder and general dust that its livery seems to be entirely obscured.
 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Today on a Facebook group I saw this image which shows some MR merchandise wagons, some coal wagons and some Lilleshall limestone wagons in sidings. The caption the poster supplied was:

"Another rare photo of the inside of wooden wagons. In this case photographed in South Wales showing a number of Lilleshall Company wagons from Shropshire. I think the wagons were in S Wales for Limestone to feed the Lilleshall Company's blast furnaces."

 

As is typical of Facebook, that image is poorly captioned and uncredited. It appears in full and in high quality in J. Miles, K. Thomas and T. Watkins, The Swansea Vale Railway (Lightmoor Press, 2017) p. 129, where it is credited to the NRM. The location is Ynisygeinon Sidings on the Midland Railway's Swansea Vale line, the date being 1912. Miles et al. suggest that their wagons have been carrying lime, judging by the state of the interiors. The Lilleshall Co. owned limestone quarries in mid-Wales; there were however sources of lime in the Swansea vale. The suggestion is made that they have been sent collect culm - anthracite slack - for lime burning. I agree the Lilleshall wagons show an unusual amount of patching with replacement sheeting, apparently unpainted or possibly just plainly painted. The Lilleshall Company seems to have been rather self-sufficient, even building its own locomotives, so I wouldn't be surprised if it built or at least maintained its own wagon fleet, without recourse to maintenance contracts with the wagon building firms.

 

Other aspects of this photo were discussed a while back on my wagon building thread, including the Midland wagons with sheet rails; a better version of the portion of the photo you posted was posted there, with appropriate credit:

Note how scrupulously clean the interiors of the coal wagons are - the unpainted wood is uniformly grimy but there's no small coal or any other dross left in them. And note how prominent the side knees are.

[Martin S-C]

Thank you for that Stephen - the original image is very clear and helpful - the remains of the Lilleshall sign writing is visible on the furthest wagon in that clearer photograph. Please don't dismiss Facebook groups out of hand though. I am a member of several where the depth of knowledge and the informative discussion exceeds that to be found on RMWeb by a significant degree.

Moving on to a new issue, I have started work on some 4-wheel Oldbury coach prints created by Jonathan Luce. These come as body, roof and underframe separate, already fitted with bearings and wheelsets. The underframe carries no detail however and obviously brakes and gas tanks would be present. Given that foot boards will be fitted I am not sure I will bother with brakes but I wondered if anyone had any information on what the underslung gubbins below such coaches would be so I can attempt a reasonable facsimile.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Regularity]

16 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I have started work on some 4-wheel Oldbury coach prints created by Jonathan Luce. These come as body, roof and underframe separate, already fitted with bearings and wheelsets. The underframe carries no detail however and obviously brakes and gas tanks would be present. Given that foot boards will be fitted I am not sure I will bother with brakes but I wondered if anyone had any information and what the underslung gubbins below such coaches would be so I can attempt a reasonable facsimile.

They are very nice.

As to the gubbins, it will depend on the era and the railway. Why gas tanks? They may have been oil.

[Nearholmer]

Very nice indeed.

 

Isn't the one you’ve nearly finished fitted with oil-lamp pots?

 

And, I can’t see any brakes on the real thing - maybe it’s my eyesight!

[Nick C]

16 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Moving on to a new issue, I have started work on some 4-wheel Oldbury coach prints created by Jonathan Luce. These come as body, roof and underframe separate, already fitted with bearings and wheelsets. The underframe carries no detail however and obviously brakes and gas tanks would be present. Given that foot boards will be fitted I am not sure I will bother with brakes but I wondered if anyone had any information and what the underslung gubbins below such coaches would be so I can attempt a reasonable facsimile.

 

The simple answer is very little!

 

As built, they had oil lamps, and only the brake vans had brakes. The rest were later fitted with Westinghouse air brakes, but even then there isn't much to see below solebar level other than the brake shoes and hangars themselves - obviously if the NMGS used vacuum then there will be a cylinder visible as they tend to be somewhat bigger than those for air brakes.

 

The drawings* show tie bars between the w-irons, and footboards just below the top of the axleboxes. 

 

* The Isle of Wight Railway, Maycock/Silsbury, Oakwood Press OL109, pp200-204

[Nick C]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

 

And, I can’t see any brakes on the real thing - maybe it’s my eyesight!

 

It's not you! That photo must've been taken before they were fitted to the replica chassis!

[Regularity]

25 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

And, I can’t see any brakes on the real thing - maybe it’s my eyesight!

 

23 minutes ago, Nick C said:

It's not you! That photo must've been taken before they were fitted to the replica chassis!

As built, not being a brake coach, that vehicle may not have had any brakes anyway.

[Martin S-C]

The 3D prints have gas lamps fitted so I can easily glue a gas cylinder under there. I have several spare white metal ones and that'll help add weight. By the period of around WWI I would expect them to all have brakes but having spent a good while carefully fitting clasp brake assemblies to my pair of O.1 inspired milk vans which, once the footboards are on, you simply can't see I shall not bother this time!
 

Quote

The drawings* show tie bars between the w-irons, and footboards just below the top of the axleboxes. 

* The Isle of Wight Railway, Maycock/Silsbury, Oakwood Press OL109, pp200-204

Thank you Nick, I have that book and had completely forgotten to check it. Thanks for the pointer, that will help.

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Caley Jim]

14 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

...... By the period of around WWI I would expect them to all have brakes but having spent a good while carefully fitting clasp brake assemblies to my pair of O.1 inspired milk vans which, once the footboards are on, you simply can't see I shall not bother this time!

The first coaches I built were CR 6-wheelers with clasp brakes on the outer wheels.  I decided that, as the brakes would be hidden behind the footboards, I wouldn't bother with them.  When I looked at the finished coach side-on something was not right.  The overhang at each end appeared too long.  I checked the length and the wheelbase and the distance between the outer wheels and the headstocks, but all was correct.  It then dawned on me that the brake hangers made the W-hangers look wider and so made the distance between them and the headstocks look shorter.  Adding the brakes made the coach 'look' much better.  I always say that some details can appear small and unimportant, but they can be 'significant' if they are absent.

 

Jim, 

[Nick C]

35 minutes ago, Regularity said:

 

As built, not being a brake coach, that vehicle may not have had any brakes anyway.

Indeed it didn't - however the photo is of the restored vehicle, which sits on a new-build replica chassis - and obviously had to have brakes fitted before entering service! There's another photo of it on the IWSR website showing the air brakes quite clearly. 

 

What's probably more odd is that photo appears to show a vacuum pipe - I'm assuming that it was through-piped for the TV show (No 10 was restored for the "Great Rail Restorations" TV show a couple of years ago), then fitted with air brakes once back on the Island.