Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Stubby47]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The way you have described it makes it sound like something I could use since it appears its a system that would control points and signals. I wonder if it can handle digital interlocking so that a signal cannot be pulled off until a road is set. Is that possible?

 

Yes, probably,  but not something I've tried as yet.

[Stubby47]

16 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The way you have described it makes it sound like something I could use since it appears its a system that would control points and signals. I wonder if it can handle digital interlocking so that a signal cannot be pulled off until a road is set. Is that possible?

 

Of course,  what the system can do is change the points then pull off the signal, all from one switch and a delay sequence. 

[Martin S-C]

I still want a fully manual lever frame, but with the pulling of the signal lever by the operator to be blocked until after the route is set. The exact equivalent of manual interlocking, only digital or electronic. I haven't a use for route setting software.

I suspect what I am looking for does not exist because it would have to be impossible to pull the signal lever and that almost certainly has to mean a mechanical system.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Martin S-C

[Nick C]

21 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I still want a fully manual lever frame, but with the pulling of the signal lever by the operator to be blocked until after the route is set. The exact equivalent of manual interlocking, only digital or electronic. I haven't a use for route setting software.

I suspect what I am looking for does not exist because it would have to be impossible to pull the signal lever and that almost certainly has to mean a mechanical system.

You could have an electric lock on the signal lever, using either a servo or solenoid. Perfectly prototypical too - electric locks are commonplace to, for example, prevent the section signal from being cleared before the train is accepted by the box in advance. 

[Martin S-C]

51 minutes ago, Nick C said:

You could have an electric lock on the signal lever, using either a servo or solenoid. Perfectly prototypical too - electric locks are commonplace to, for example, prevent the section signal from being cleared before the train is accepted by the box in advance. 

That would entail a further lever though wouldn't it? The cost issue raises its ugly head once again.

[Schooner]

Could one lever, say the final turnout to be set for a given route, not control two servos - one for the turnout, one releasing the signal lever?

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

That would entail a further lever though wouldn't it? The cost issue raises its ugly head once again.

Not really a lever, just a bar or peg that stops the signal lever moving, which is then moved out of the way by the solenoid when the conditions are met. But yes, still extra cost! 

 

Perhaps a cheaper method would be to have an LED above each lever that lights when that lever is 'free' to be pulled? It wouldn't physically stop the lever moving, but would act as a reminder to set the route first. 

[Martin S-C]

That second option has potential.

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Schooner said:

Could one lever, say the final turnout to be set for a given route, not control two servos - one for the turnout, one releasing the signal lever?

It could but if in a shunt situation might you wish to operate a point but not clear a signal? I don't know if that would be the case but if it were signals would wag about unnecessarily. Or a point be set for running in one direction but setting it that way also clears the signal in the other?

[Caley Jim]

Clearing one signal would lock the signal for the move in the opposite direction.

 

Jim

[Martin S-C]

In the real world yes, but the signals in this system would operate even when shunting within station limits.

Imagine a simple terminus with a 2 points forming a run-round loop and 1 starting signal at the end of the track with the passenger platform. A train arrives along the straight line into the platform. In the system described above the starting signal would be off because the straight road is set. The system has no idea in which direction the move is taking place, only that a route is set.

How would this software know which direction a move was happening in?

[Harlequin]

Regarding cheap/simple interlocking in a manual lever frame: Physically preventing the wrong lever from being pulled is expensive, as noted, but the underlying system could perhaps dissuade the operator from pulling the wrong lever by making a loud buzzing sound when the interlocking rules are broken...?

 

[Stubby47]

10 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

How would this software know which direction a move was happening in?

 

If you mean Modulus, then can I point out it is not a train control software product.

 

What it does is animate accessories, add sounds and lights, and operate points, signals and uncouplers.

Yes, route setting can be achieved. 

Yes, sensor activated actions can be performed.

No, it does not ( yet...) control the actual driving of trains.

[Martin S-C]

On 23/10/2022 at 11:56, Schooner said:

Could one lever, say the final turnout to be set for a given route, not control two servos - one for the turnout, one releasing the signal lever?

 

50 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

 

If you mean Modulus, then can I point out it is not a train control software product.

 

What it does is animate accessories, add sounds and lights, and operate points, signals and uncouplers.

Yes, route setting can be achieved. 

Yes, sensor activated actions can be performed.

No, it does not ( yet...) control the actual driving of trains.

The post I was referring too was Schooner's which I've quoted above yours. I am sure what he suggested can be done, the problem I foresaw was that the system would/might not know in which direction the movement was taking place. I wasn't necessarily aiming the discussion at the Modulus System specifically though I was wondering (perhaps not at all clearly) if it could also handle such things.

[Schooner]

Sorry, I wasn't really thinking of Modulus with that comment - just a possible way of getting a kind of mechanical interlocking!

Edited October 25, 2022 by Schooner
And you're quite right to spot that problem with the idea

[Martin S-C]

As happens in good exchanges of ideas, people branch off along their own lines of thought :)

[Stubby47]

Martin / Schooner - no problems, I just didn't want any misconceptions of the capabilities of Modulus.

 

That's not to say it can't handle direction of movement differences, I'd have to ask the system inventor, but it's beyond what I've learnt so far (and there is still lots to discover).

 

We've also not considered connecting it to a mechanical/electrical lever system, or interlocking of same, but again, this might be possible.

 

Stu

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

 

The post I was referring too was Schooner's which I've quoted above yours. I am sure what he suggested can be done, the problem I foresaw was that the system would/might not know in which direction the movement was taking place. I wasn't necessarily aiming the discussion at the Modulus System specifically though I was wondering (perhaps not at all clearly) if it could also handle such things.

I'd have thought an electromechanical system would work in the same way as a mechanical system - the point operation unlocks the signal levers in both directions - then when you pull the lever for one of them, the other is re-locked.

 

The chap doing Bexhill West has posted some good videos giving a nice introduction to interlocking:

 

 

Much simpler to build (and cheaper) would be an IFS-type system (Individual Function Switch), where there's nothing stopping you pulling the lever, or turning the switch - but nothing will happen if you do - for example in Alton:

In this view points 21 are normal, i.e. set for the main line, as shown by the black switch bottom middle. If I turn the switch to go from signal 50 to the loop, or any of the switches for 57, nothing will happen - only the switches for 50 and 55 along the main will clear any signals. This is obviously colour lights, but would work just as well for semaphores - just needs either relays (as in the real thing) or software to control it.

[Pannier Tank]

On 23/10/2022 at 14:53, Nick C said:

Not really a lever, just a bar or peg that stops the signal lever moving, which is then moved out of the way by the solenoid when the conditions are met. But yes, still extra cost! 

 

Perhaps a cheaper method would be to have an LED above each lever that lights when that lever is 'free' to be pulled? It wouldn't physically stop the lever moving, but would act as a reminder to set the route first. 

 

Take a look at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/171854-passim-interlocking-project/#comment-4813353

 

[gabalfa]

On 17/02/2019 at 13:22, Martin S-C said:

I have the ABS models GWR 1.5t travelling crane kit to build, though possibly that's the sort of thing that would be moved to out-of-the-way rural goods yards to unload unusual loads where no yard crane was installed. I also have a kit of a 6t crane wagon somewhere but don't seem to have a photo of it. I think its a Mike's Models one. That is probably more like the kind of equipment an engineers train might have since it could put its feet down and lift overturned carriages, etc.

Mind you a lot of recovery of derailments on these lesser railways was done just by very slow and careful jacking up and packing with sleepers etc. On a single track without crane access from another line that would be the only solution.

I've added a pic of my GW stores/tool van as well. Its a bit careworn but nothing that can't be spruced up with a bit of TLC.

 

 

 

Hi

 

Looking back through this thread I noticed your image of the instructions for an ABS 1 1/2 ton travelling crane. I don't suppose by any chance that you still have them? I have acquired a model of this minus instructions so am looking for a copy of them and would be extremely grateful if you could help me in some way

 

David

 

 

[RodneyS]

I hope Martin replies as it would be nice to hear from him again and perhaps get an update on the layout - even if it is only about demolition !

 

If he doesn't reply I have one of those kits in my unmade stash.

I don't have a scanner so a photocopy would have to be sent by snail mail.

PM me your address if you want me to do that.

 

It is amazing how many kits seem to be sold with no instructions.  Is there an instruction black hole somewhere I wonder ?

Rodney

[gabalfa]

3 hours ago, RodneyS said:

I hope Martin replies as it would be nice to hear from him again and perhaps get an update on the layout - even if it is only about demolition !

 

If he doesn't reply I have one of those kits in my unmade stash.

I don't have a scanner so a photocopy would have to be sent by snail mail.

PM me your address if you want me to do that.

 

It is amazing how many kits seem to be sold with no instructions.  Is there an instruction black hole somewhere I wonder ?

Rodney

Thanks Rodney that's very kind.

 

PM sent

 

David

[RodneyS]

I've found a couple of pictures of preserved cranes on this link.

 

As the jib is held in position with rigid links I've often wondered how it was raised and lowered into the lifting and travelling positions. 

I suppose this could be accomplished with the hook attached to the jib until the links were fixed in place.

Rodney

 

https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_601_1Ton_10cwt_Hand_Crane#/media/File:GWR_601_1Ton_10cwt_Hand_Crane.jpg