Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Nick C]

10 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

 

As the loco enters the reverse loop or section the green/red lights will flip indicating job done.

 

Nooooooooo! Never use scotch locks (those blue plastic things) for anything whatsoever, they are evil!

 

They give very unreliable connections, and damage the wire they're splicing into. I used to do a lot with old cars, and any bodging that had been done with them was almost guaranteed to cause problems. We used to rip them out on sight and replace with proper automotive spade connections.

[Harlequin]

Can I make a plea for Ply:

 

I made the baseboards for my little test layout almost entirely out of ordinary 9mm ply from one of the big builder's merchants and I have not sealed it or painted it with anything. A year on there's no warping and no unwanted movement.

 

Ply is very dimensionally stable in the plane of the sheet because the long grain of one layer reduces the shrinkage across the grain of the layers next to it. Outside of the plane even quite thick gauge ply will warp unless supported and so the trick to building large structures with ply is to make L, I, H or box girders.

 

Here's the lift out bridging section I made last year:

 

You can see that it's basically a 1440mm long H girder with some cross-ribs. It's all glued, no screws or nails at all, and you can see it's still dead square. It's light and I'm sure I could stand in the middle of it without mishap - but I haven't tried yet...

 

I have softwood blocks supporting the lift-out section and they did shrink in the dry environment in my house (pity my poor orchids!). The blocks are bolted on specifically to make them adjustable and so it was easy to loosen the bolts, tap the blocks into a better position and tighten up again.

 

So what I'm saying is, ordinary ply isn't necessarily a problem and might not need sealing if used in the right way*. In fact, ply I beams or L beams might help solve some of your problems.

 

* Edit: You would, of course, want to seal the surface if your landscaping involves any wet processes.

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Harlequin

[Nearholmer]

Does your ply live in the house?

 

I’ve had no issues where it did, but needed to “seal” it where it was in a mildly heated (10 degrees), insulated, outbuilding.

 

Conversely, two untreated egg box structure boards of 6mm cheap ply lasted 25 years in unheated, freely ventilated garden shed! I recycled them because I didn’t need them, not because they warped.

 

It faintly baffles me, but humidity is definitely the villain, and some material seems worse than others.

[BWsTrains]

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

ZINSSER B-I-N shellac based primer/sealer from Screwfix is very good for sealing timber edges (especially on MDF) probably the best primer/sealer I’ve ever used.....it’s just quite expensive 

 

I think the technical terminology for the quality of DIY shop timber is

’sh*t stuff’

 

I think WBP plywood is is an exterior grade and is cheaper than Marine ply but it still costs more than standard ply

 

One of the reasons I used MDF was because all the plywood in Wickes was like corrugated sheeting and B&Q’s offerings were no better.

 

Plus I like working with MDF due to its uniform finish and thickness

 

 

 

 

The biggest downsides of MDF are:

• the fibre hazard (think asbestos wood), never sand or saw the stuff without full respiratory gear or you'll pay the price, eventually.
   
• Any unsealed point that gets wet accidentally swells up irreversibly,

BTW the best example of this 2nd point I've ever seen was in Palazzo Grimani in Venice where in the basement (of all places) they'd used MDF architraves! I joke not! They'd swollen up to double size, unsurprising given Venice is built on stilts.

 

Use MDF at your peril, if you doubt me look up Everard Junction old layout.

 

Colin

 

 

[ian]

MDF is indeed the work of the devil.

 

I was amazed to see that Homebase now sell it as an alternative to PSE timber!

Edited July 20, 2019 by ian

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

 

Second, a timber trestle bridge. I finally got around to building this. It's my first scratchbuilt model in at least 20 years and I'm moderately happy with how its turning out. For now the leg assemblies are just placed loose under the two longitudinal baulks that support the rails. You can see in the last pic that the nearest assembly is leaning... I need to remove this track piece, shed the Peco sleepers and use some small section timber and chairs (I have a stash in the bits box) to extend the sleepers outwards beyond the ends of the leg main members, otherwise as it is now it looks odd.

 

 

I have to say that fine model though it is, the Director appears to be viewing it with some trepidation!

[chuffinghell]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Can I make a plea for Ply:

 

I made the baseboards for my little test layout almost entirely out of ordinary 9mm ply from one of the big builder's merchants.

 

I wasn’t saying plywood was bad, far from it, it’s an underrated material

 

Plywood (and timber in general) is much better quality from a builders merchant....and they store it correctly

 

My comment was to agree with Martin that plywood from the likes of B&Q etc is generally poor quality

 

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

Use MDF at your peril, if you doubt me look up Everard Junction old layout

 

 

I have perilously used MDF

 

However, I don’t doubt you at all, I am aware of the dangers and characteristics of MDF

 

If used/cut safely and placed in a suitable environment it’s fine

 

If it all goes wrong it’s a great excuse to build another layout

 

 

[Martin S-C]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to say that fine model though it is, the Director appears to be viewing it with some trepidation!

You should have seen the expression on its smokebox door when there was just a saggy bit of unsupported track there.

 

Phil - nicely built structure. The ply you've used is nothing like the ply I have and therein may lie the problem. Mine is also not made into L, I, H, or box girders which may also be a problem in the future. This discussion has got me rather worried now.

[RedGemAlchemist]

4 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

The biggest downsides of MDF are:

• the fibre hazard (think asbestos wood), never sand or saw the stuff without full respiratory gear or you'll pay the price, eventually.
   
• Any unsealed point that gets wet accidentally swells up irreversibly,

Why do you think I used OBS instead?

 

[Martin S-C]

1 hour ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

Why do you think I used OBS instead?

 

OBS? Old Burnt Sleepers?

[Nick C]

6 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

 

Plywood (and timber in general) is much better quality from a builders merchant....and they store it correctly

If you can actually find a proper builders merchant, or timber merchant - we've got all the major DIY chains here but no proper merchants at all...

[RedGemAlchemist]

58 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

OBS? Old Burnt Sleepers?

OSB sorry (For those not in the know, that's oriented strand board aka floorboard material)

Edited July 20, 2019 by RedGemAlchemist

[Martin S-C]

6 hours ago, Nick C said:

If you can actually find a proper builders merchant, or timber merchant - we've got all the major DIY chains here but no proper merchants at all...

The DIY chains have mostly killed off the genuine builder's merchants.

[BWsTrains]

17 hours ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

OSB sorry (For those not in the know, that's oriented strand board aka floorboard material)

 

Yes that would be excellent, our house extension upper level had that as the floor and it sat out in winter weather without a warp of any sort while the frame was being built on it. Great idea but bit late in day for Martin!

Colin

 

 

[south_tyne]

On 14/07/2019 at 00:23, Schooner said:

Sometimes the *like* button isn't enough:

 

Exceptional work on your inspirational layout, Martin. Please accept my congratulations for finishing the trackwork, it's some achievement and must be a great feeling, and my envy...for everything

 

All the best for the works to come,

 

Couldn't agree more with that. You must be over the moon with how things are moving forward Martin. I'm dead excited to see progress just as a simple bystander, so how you must feel as the lord of this wonderful domain I can only imagine! 

 

I know you are having some niggles and problems but please don't get too downhearted. With a project on such a scale as this there will be ups and downs along the way but you will be able to overcome them and iron out the issues in due course. Remember you have the support of so many folk around here! Keep up the good work, you're doing a fantastic job 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by south_tyne
Clarification

[Martin S-C]

Thanks to everyone for the amazing support. It helps me keep going when things get wonky. My biggest annoyance right now is not layout related but a number of failures of DCC locos, particularly speakers. Easily corrected but expensive. I've certainly learned to avoid all factory fitted units now plus another retailer whose 3 locos they did for me are all failures in terms of sound quality and stay-alive performance.

Wiring up is completed and the entire layout is now powered so I've the opportunity to take a break from working this week and play tr... er, I mean test the track plan. I'm finding that Puddlebrook's layout is especially useful as regards moves from the colliery via the back road and the access to the main line via two routes from the exchange sidings. I didn't plan it this way, I just drew out a track plan that I thought would be different and interesting but fortune has smiled and given me operational capability that was unexpected. Yesterday I had a goods train circulating on the main line coming down the hill from GS while another was climbing up from the exchange sidings and they were moving at almost the same speed, the combination of motion in the same direction and the changing grades was engaging to watch. When the scenery is complete on these curves I think I might find myself often watching trains go by here.

The next step is installing all the point motors - all 94 of them. We're also doing a test build of a control panel, the design of which will be modular in that each one will have a tool shelf and Powercab connector plate, both of which are of fixed dimensions, plus a lever frame box which will vary in length by number of levers. The whole panel will be supported on shelf brackets that will be attached to the layout frame's main side members. I have decided to go for a track mimic diagram behind the levers rather than in front so that the operator's view is centred only at one area as the lever frame is worked. If we can standardise on boxes, panels and so on it will be easier to manufacture the components for each station control position. Rather than have plastic slotted Powercab or throttle holders to slide the handsets into I think I'll go with simple Velcro pads on the layout fascia. The layout I helped operate for a friend at the GCR event last month used these and they were extremely user friendly. You could stick the handset away even if the Velcro pad was behind you; your fingers just brushed the side of the control panel and they you knew the Velcro was directly ahead. I'm all for features that limit your thought processes and body movements to actually running the layout and nothing else, nothing that's a distraction.

[Regularity]

One thing I have learned after all the blind alleyways, failed schemes and stupid ideas over the year is that one can replace virtually any part of a layout in a piecemeal fashion, except for the baseboards. Whilst it is possible to design and build a supporting framework using inverted L-girders, screwing the trackbed (“sub-road bed” in North American parlance) in place from underneath, this isn’t always possible or desirable.

 

The other thing I have learned is that long-term simplicity usually requires an upfront investment in initial complexity, or at least learning. (Or, if you are going to make the best - for you - use of DCC, then at some point you are going to have to do some installations/calibration yourself, so get down and dirty with it, and learn to do it yourself!)

[Martin S-C]

I'm happy with programming and have altered CV settings and so on. I have even installed sound in two locos which work nicely. I suppose I was just having a rant at wasted money when people charged me £xxx for work that really wasn't good enough. Swapping out a speaker is easy enough though.

 

Sorry - it was just me in rant mode. Its fixable and its all about learning as well.

Thank you for getting me to focus on going forwards rather than looking backwards. No use crying over spilled milk. RMWeb is like a model railway club and free psychiatrists couch all rolled into one.

[south_tyne]

20 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The next step is installing all the point motors - all 94 of them. 

 

That really puts the scale of your project into perspective!! 

 

I hope you manage to sort your DCC issues in due course. 

 

Dave

[ianathompson]

A pang of unease  prompts me to comment re the recent posts about simplicity, point motors and DCC.

I am almost twenty years into building my own (large) layout and I deliberately chose to keep things as simple as possible after an over-engineered false start.

 

DCC was always a "no-no" because it is a "black box" to me.

At least the Grammar School physics department can congratulate itself on managing to get simple DC circuits into my head!

Point and signal operation is by rods from the baseboard edge; cheap, simple and usually reliable.

They cannot burn out (unlike the two of the five that I initially installed, although one was my own fault).

Crossing polarity (or frogs if you must use that detestable term(!)) is determined by activators attached to the rods contacting micro-switches.

A solenoid point motor needs three soldered joints at the polarity switch, three joints to the rails, four joints at the point motor and another three at the point activating switch (thirteen at least).

A rod drive system uses six., i.e. half as much to come undone. Multiply this by a large number of points and......

 

It is a fact of life that a large system will throw up many more failures than a small BLT.

There is more stock, more trackwork and more equipment to go wrong.

Every large layout also seems to acquire a problem corner as well. (I seem to have created three or four!)

Much more time has also to be spent on mundane chores such as track and loco wheel cleaning to maintain good running.

 

Despite having been bedded in for some years the last operating session threw up a number of routine problems.

One was a mysterious short,  which was tracked within 10 minutes. [Although DC, the layout has deliberately been divided into eleven power districts, which can be isolated, to allow for such an eventuality.]

Three point blades separated from their tie bars, although this can be attributed to the use of scratchbuilt points unlike your commercial ones. [Around one hundred blade ends.]

A couple of crossings had the wrong polarity due to the activator being out of register. [Perhaps one twenty plus micros as all crossings including slips and diamonds are live.]

A trustworthy loco  ran erratically and needed remedial attention after the end of the session. [Twenty five plus locos and railcars in use per session]

 

This is about par for the course and so I wish you well with your more complicated plans.

I would add some simple advice, however. 

Make sure that everything is recorded in an easily accessible book so that if anything goes wrong you have something to jog your memory.

I use a ring folder and replace or update sheets as necessary.

Trying to troubleshoot equipment installed in 2001, from memory, is not really a good idea!

 

Ian T

 

 

 

 

 

[DonB]

I seems to me that Martin and Ian have much common ground despite (apparently!) fairly fixed ideas on operating /control systems.

If my geography is dependable, they do not live too far apart. I'm sure that a meeting between the two would have a lively debate and much cross fertilisation of knowledge on non-contentious subjects related to larger layouts.    

[Martin S-C]

Thanks Ian, all very helpful. One benefit I have is the contracted layout builder. He's very happy to return and fix faults. The DCC Concepts Cobalt point motors have a famously bad batch but Neil now has a simple in-house fix for this, which is basically a small resistance circuit added in. We don't have the track bus divided into districts but I've been under there a lot checking the work as it gets done and I'm very familiar with what is under there now. We will run a second bus for any layout lighting.

I realise this project does have the potential to go Frankensteinian on me so we are taking it carefully and methodically.

As for the aforementioned notebook - I already have a list of issues that have arisen and been addressed, including the dates and brief details of the remedial work, I couldn't face such a big task without a clear log of what's going on.

[Martin S-C]

The last few days have been 'wasted' spending time outside in the lovely warm weather, intermixed with testing the trackwork. I've been mucking about with a random freight generation system using a pack of playing cards and a pair of ten-sided dice, know in RP circles as d100 or percentile dice. You probably all know this but the pair will give a result between 1 and 100 without any bell curve as other pairs of dice will. This has generated a few nice looking mixed freights and with traffic weighted towards the colliery and the two main termini makes the most of the layout's main line run.

Next up, I need a few wagon loads of pit props. Fairly simple to make. 28mm x 62mm 30 thou plasticard rectangles cut deliberately loose to easily fit a standard 10ft open wagon. In the middle of what will become the underside I superglue a steel nut to give depth to the load as well as weight, then I'm chopping up lengths of 2.5mm dowel bought from Hobbycraft into 14mm lengths. These stack 128 to a wagon. Slow going but satisfying once your rhythm gets going.

 

Lastly a start has been made on a foamboard mock up of the tunnel mouth above Witts End, using the photo below as inspiration.

 

 

[Joe61264]

Fantastic to see the layout coming on so well (and the sheer scale of it!). Perhaps the 'testing' could be an ideal opportunity to work out some running times between locations to aid drawing up a running schedule/timetable?   Or some other similar excuse  

I'm intrigued by the freight generation system and how it works. Is it something that could be done 'on-the-go' during an operating session or would it be better done in advance then allocated to locations at the start of play?

[chuffinghell]

Looking good!...... I know I’ve said it already but I really do like that trestle bridge 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by chuffinghell