MAINLINE MOGUL/MANOR AXLE PROBLEMS

[Fireline]

I think I need to give my Manor this treatment, but I also need traction tyres for it. Even Peter's Spares seem devoid of options. Does anyone have any idea if Manor tyres can still be obtained, or am I better taking the wheels from a Bachmann split chassis?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Each of the Bachmann split chassis to fit what were Mainline origin body shells were to the best of my knowledge a complete retool. Best  to assume there's no spares compatibilty as  a result, (unless someone can identify specific parts from a Bachmann mechanism which will fit on a Mainline mechanism).

 

I would run a web search for traction tyres as there is a large choice in European HO which is 'traction tyre world' and there's likely to be something which will fit if no UK retailer has a specific spare for a Mainline product. (Don't forget Mainline is near forty years out of producton now.)

[DCB]

I have lost many many many many of these little screws over the years, and have a technique that prevents it.  A lump of blutack or plasticene, or similar sits by the work, and the screws are stuck into it as soon as they are removed, ideally on the end of a magnetised screwdriver.  That stops the little s*ds making their break for the border.  

 

I tried putting them in a small container, but of course it got knocked over by some clumsy fool about my size...

Pop them in a little dish with a super neo magnet or two. they will stick to it and not go walk about.   I have a big very strong magnet from a speaker on a length of string so it hangs flat like a dish and just waft it over the suspected area for the dropped items and they jump up and attach themselves. Also a good trick stick a couple of small super Neos on a big flat blade screwdriver to pick up dropped screws.   I bought a tin of them from china for a quid or so and there are two in every CD player pickup if you are mean enough to recover them from dead tech items.  My Track pin wagon has a big magnet underneath and you can turn it upside down without losing the pins, and it also recovers lost screws and pins dropped in the four foot as it travels round the layout.

 

On a related point,  Does anyone have any ideas how to remove a maniline coupling pin from a Super Neo Magnet

[EWS60065]

I have had the same issue with my manor. It was out of service for two years, but then I got some replacement middle axle sleeve things from Peters spares, fitted them carefully, requartered the wheels, applied some superglue, then it was all fine. When you do this, just ensure the wheels are pushed as close together as possible or you'll be spending years scraping superglue off metal when you try to re align them. 

[cypherman]

Hi all.

I so far have been very lucky not to have had any problems with the 1 Manor I have, But have had real problems with the Mainline 4mt's. To such an extent that I have replace all but one with Bachmann chassis's. Even then I had the dreaded warped wheels problems. Which fortunately I have managed to fix. That is all but one 4mt that is. This still has the original Mainline chassis. I have been using it for a testbed. It had the spinning wheel problems that they all seem to have. This was fixed as I have mentioned with Hafix industrial superglue as I found that using ordinary superglue had problems with oil. This caused the glue to break down for some reason. The other testing I have tried is as some one here mentioned adding different wheel pick ups. I have posted how this went elsewhere on this site. It turned out to be really easy to do and works better than the original puck ups. This is the link to how I did it.

 

[Jim49]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

original puck ups

 

Hi Cypherman,  I'm sure there is a spelling mistake in there but can't think what it is. 

 

Jim

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all.

 the original puck ups.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jim49 said:

 

Hi Cypherman,  I'm sure there is a spelling mistake in there but can't think what it is. 

 

Jim

I'll let you into a secret, one of the words should start with an "f".

Edited August 15, 2019 by melmerby

[DCB]

On 15/08/2018 at 09:58, Fireline said:

I think I need to give my Manor this treatment, but I also need traction tyres for it. Even Peter's Spares seem devoid of options. Does anyone have any idea if Manor tyres can still be obtained, or am I better taking the wheels from a Bachmann split chassis?

I am pretty sure the Bachmann square axle end wheels have larger axle journals that the mainline round ones, the 57XX certainly does. Only option is extra Mainline leading drivers used as trailing drivers.  Traction is not really an issue without traction tyres as the Bachmann Manor outperforms the Hornby Grange and Black 5 for haulage in my experience.

[EWS60065]

I don't think I want to go anywhere near hafix industrial superglue! 

[97xx]

Just stumbled across this thread as I take a lockdown-inspired opportunity to run through my model collection from 40+ years ago, and give them a clean and service as I inventory them all.

 

Mainly HD/Wrenn,  a few WIlls/Ks and the odd RTR interloper as the 'new' players emerged in the late 70s etc.

 

I came across one such 'New': the Mainline Lydham Manor ("Made in HK") , which steadfastly refused to run at all. First obvious problem was the collector spring from motor to 'opposite' half of chassis which had no continuity - just a twiddle and fixed - I assume surface contamination where it pressed on casting.

 

So, power to motor now from wheels. Oh dear. loped along sporadically a few inches then stuck. Terrible mechanical noise. More investigation - driver had spun on plastic mid-axle, so requartered and glued. All the axles had horrendous play and the main driver (rear) looked a bit out of square.

 

Tried it again and this time it ran (badly) and basically walked itself off of the track - the intermittent grip of the traction tyres lifting it off as one of the drivers occasionally contacted track.

 

More review and clear that (a) rear axle was hugely out of square and (b) crack in casting in more than one place.

 

Unsalvagable as I could see that if I 'adjusted' split frames to get rear axle cutouts square, front and middle would be out of square., so simply moving problem back and forth. Also the cracks were material.

 

It's all quite hideous. I recall it being an 'average' runner, but it seems the two halves of the casting have contracted at different rates to be this bad now.

 

The body and tender are quite reasonably detailed, and would be Ok with some heavy-ish weathering, so might go for a scratch built chassis - it seems no RTR substitution either worthwhile or suitable?

 

 

[melmerby]

The Hornby Grange chassis can be squeezed into a Manor body but needs a fair bit of hacking

Else it's a chassis kit e.g. Comet (Wizard Models):

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/gwr-manor-4-6-0-chassis-pack-lcp26/

[hallmodelspares]

As some one who has used the replacement kit it fixed 2 of my locos, a jubilee with a broken gear axle and j72. the j72 was more of a challenge but luckly the axles had not gone out of quarter when i replaced them. I kept each set together and replaced first the drive axle middle as then once the others will be locked to a degree from going out of quarter.

[DCB]

20 hours ago, 97xx said:

Just stumbled across this thread as I take a lockdown-inspired opportunity to run through my model collection from 40+ years ago, and give them a clean and service as I inventory them all.

 

Mainly HD/Wrenn,  a few WIlls/Ks and the odd RTR interloper as the 'new' players emerged in the late 70s etc.

 

I came across one such 'New': the Mainline Lydham Manor ("Made in HK") , which steadfastly refused to run at all. First obvious problem was the collector spring from motor to 'opposite' half of chassis which had no continuity - just a twiddle and fixed - I assume surface contamination where it pressed on casting.

 

So, power to motor now from wheels. Oh dear. loped along sporadically a few inches then stuck. Terrible mechanical noise. More investigation - driver had spun on plastic mid-axle, so requartered and glued. All the axles had horrendous play and the main driver (rear) looked a bit out of square.

 

Tried it again and this time it ran (badly) and basically walked itself off of the track - the intermittent grip of the traction tyres lifting it off as one of the drivers occasionally contacted track.

 

More review and clear that (a) rear axle was hugely out of square and (b) crack in casting in more than one place.

 

Unsalvagable as I could see that if I 'adjusted' split frames to get rear axle cutouts square, front and middle would be out of square., so simply moving problem back and forth. Also the cracks were material.

 

It's all quite hideous. I recall it being an 'average' runner, but it seems the two halves of the casting have contracted at different rates to be this bad now.

 

The body and tender are quite reasonably detailed, and would be Ok with some heavy-ish weathering, so might go for a scratch built chassis - it seems no RTR substitution either worthwhile or suitable?

 

 

 

It might be contraction but more likely to be lousy quality control.  I fixed my Mainline Manor 30 odd years ago with a Triang Hall chassis, and 22mm Romford wheels. Fabricated front extension frame, modified bogie etc, plenty of lead and its been a reliable workhorse even since. When bought they only came in unlined green so I repainted and lined mine.  It will happily pull the Hornby Grange backwards.  I also did one with the Mainline chassis, binned the motor, fitted Romfords in brass bushes inserted in plastic sleeves to fit the axle holes and wired together and shorted to  the chassis with a Hornby 28XX powered tender wired to pick up through the loco chassis one side with a 28XX drawbar. It ran beautifully until we got fed up with cleaning the track. Later a Bachmann Manor in unlined black replaced it.  It runs quite nicely, but a bit wobbly and is not in the same league power wise as the Hornby powered ones but the wheels look a lot better than the Hornby Grange when they double head, which looks positively effeminate.

A comet chassis with a High level gearbox and the biggest motor you can cram in might be a good alternative, but don't use any old tat for a motor.  See my post "Comet Chassis Woes" I wasted another 2 hours on the damn thing tonight, I seriously wish I had never set eyes on it.

[kandc_au]

Gents,

Are these any good for replacements as opposed to replacing same with same with the likelihood of the same problem happening again?? From what I have read it would appear that the biggest issue is with the material the gears are made of, so one can only surmise the same thing is going to happen further down the track!

Khris
oooops for got the link: https://jamestrainparts.com/2019/01/28/Bachmann-mainline-replica-railways-split-chassis-axel-repairs/

Edited May 3, 2020 by kandc_au
To ad link

[97xx]

No wonder it wasn't happy!

 

With time on my hands, decided to try to machine up a new chassis half. or maybe both... we'll see...

 

[melmerby]

On 02/05/2020 at 09:13, 97xx said:

 

It's all quite hideous. I recall it being an 'average' runner, but it seems the two halves of the casting have contracted at different rates to be this bad now.

 

 

The problem with the Mainline chassis is that they were manufactured at a time when quite often too high a level of impurities got into the Mazak, this has resulted in many cases of degraded castings as time goes on.

I think you will find it is differential expansion rather than contraction as the impurities wreak havoc on the chemical structure of the Mazak.

I have had two Mainline models where this has happened, a 57XX pannier and a 43XX mogul.

Both chassis totally disintegrated*, I also have a Manor which, last time I checked, hadn't succombed.

 

*Once they start warping there is no way back as any attempt to straighten it is likely to end in disaster.

[legin]

This may be a bit off topic but is a question on mainline split chassis pickups. I have a Class 4, bought in the 1980s new but which up until 3 years ago, and after a years running 30 years ago,  was in a box. Straight out of that box, with a bit of lube added, the loco, converted to DCC, has run perfectly. No sign of Mazak rot either. However, I still have the original instructions which state that, from time to time, the keeper plate should be removed and a drop of oil put on the plastic pickups. I have done this but I read with horror above that the oil contributes to the deterioration of the pickups. Are the manufacturers wrong about this and have we learned from long experience? And if the pickups are not lubricated, surely this would lead to dry plastic to metal contact which would cause deterioration quickly. Any thoughts gratefully received.

 

Nigel

[melmerby]

Plastic Pickups?

I thought the idea of the split chassis was that it didn't need pickups as the axle stubs conduct the power to the two halves of the chassis directly and the motor is sandwiched between with each brush contacting one or other side of the chassis,

No wiring, No pickups, Simples

[The Johnster]

Pickups are not used on Mainline split chassis; that's the point of a split chassis, current is picked up from one rail by the wheels and half axles, which is in contact with the half chassis block and passes current to it, which in turn passes it to the carbon brush spring holder on the motor, return being achieved through the other half block, axles, and wheels to the other rail.  And plastic can't be used for pickups anyway as it doesn't conduct electricity, which is why Kieth is confused, and so am I.  And you wouldn't put oil on a pickup, because that doesn't conduct electricity either.  I'm guessing you mean something else, probably the plastic spur gears, which can be accessed by removing the keeper plate.  OIl that does not attack plastic, non-mineral oil, can be purchased in a model shop and spur gears need lubricating at the spindles and on the teeth.  

 

Take the body off, remove the keeper plate, take the wheels and axles out, and take the spur gears off.  This is a good time to inspect for wear or mazak problems.  Clean everything thoroughly and re-assemble, lubricating very lightly (I use a hypodermic syringe) with a light machine grade non-mineral oil.  Put the body back on and pull a train with your now perfectly running loco...

 

Unless you mean the plastic centre axle sections which are part of the means by which both halves of the chassis are kept electrically separate from each other, and which also need lubrication.  in this case, just take the keeper plate off, drop the wheels/axles out, clean and sparingly lubricate the axle channels, and then clean and lubricate the plastic axle sections.  You don't have to take the body off for this.  

 

As the 4MT has outside cylinders and Walcheart's valve gear, try not to get it in a tangle while the wheels are out.

[tomparryharry]

From a chassis point of view, I considered using a hard engineering plastic to make the old Mainline chassis. After all.the insulation properties are very good, and our well-known quality issues with the copper & zinc properties are neatly bypassed. Delrin, perhaps?

 

I don't have a milling machine any longer, as I'd really like to have a crack at that  (pardon the pun).  The weight issue would be a downside, and a new set of pickups would be required. 

 

By the time I'd invested in that, a new chassis kit would be a better & cheaper option. 

[cypherman]

Hi all.

I am surprised that this topic is still going. But

Legin here goes to let you know how the chassis works. Yes the mainline chassis do transfer power directly from the wheel to the chassis. Both sides of the chassis are separated by little plastic dividers. The idea and it is a good idea in theory is that all the wheels pick up and makes the pick up continuity seamless. Now the power is transferred from the wheels and not the plastic axels It has one major problem. The inside of the wheel wells are for a better word for it plated. This gives a smoother running for the axels to spin in and makes a better pick than straight on to the Mazak chassis. Without maintenance that run dry and over time the plating wears off. Yes they still work but run rougher and noisier. But if you do get one that has been over maintained the oil if used to heavily with cause poor running as well, As oil is not a very good conductor of electricity. But atleast the bearing surfaces should be ok. I like some others here have tried and succeeded in putting external pick ups on these engines. Thus you can lube the bearings to your hearts content and still get decent electrical connection. If you look further back in this thread you will see my post with a link in it to how I did it.

Plus I only found out about this place the other day who make replacement axels and gears for Mainline engines.

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/miniatures/trains?tag=mainline

[legin]

Hi, all,

Many thanks for your replies ( and links) re "plastic pickups" on the Class 4. I think the lockdown must have been causing a brainstorm. That said, I have only one split chassis loco and they were, until Cypherman, a bit of a mystery. What I should have been talking about, I think now, was wear on the stub axle journals ( David Broad) and "wear on the chassis guides in the chassis half blocks " ( The Johnster), which I think may be the same thing. So keeping those clean and lubricated is essential but with oil used sparingly. Also the type and quality of the oil is important. I have some rather expensive hypodermic syringe oil from the local model shop which doesn't have a name on it but which the repair guy, whose room is like Steptoe and Son for those of a certain vintage, uses it himself, and I have seen probably well over 200 locos, in total, awaiting repair and/or conversion there, so I assume he knows what he is talking about. And it is ok, probably essential, to lube the plastic centre sections of the axles as well. Hope I have got this right.

[cypherman]

33 minutes ago, legin said:

Hi, all,

Many thanks for your replies ( and links) re "plastic pickups" on the Class 4. I think the lockdown must have been causing a brainstorm. That said, I have only one split chassis loco and they were, until Cypherman, a bit of a mystery. What I should have been talking about, I think now, was wear on the stub axle journals ( David Broad) and "wear on the chassis guides in the chassis half blocks " ( The Johnster), which I think may be the same thing. So keeping those clean and lubricated is essential but with oil used sparingly. Also the type and quality of the oil is important. I have some rather expensive hypodermic syringe oil from the local model shop which doesn't have a name on it but which the repair guy, whose room is like Steptoe and Son for those of a certain vintage, uses it himself, and I have seen probably well over 200 locos, in total, awaiting repair and/or conversion there, so I assume he knows what he is talking about. And it is ok, probably essential, to lube the plastic centre sections of the axles as well. Hope I have got this right.

Hi Legin Glad to be of help. As for oil. use it sparingly and make sure it is a synthetic and not mineral oil based. Mineral oil works ok but have a habit of degrading plastic. So initially you will not have a problem, But some years on from now it may start causing problems. Also do not oil the plastic axels. They are not part of the bearing surface. Plus the oil may eventually affect the glue holding the axels in place.  Usually just after they have stopped making spares for that particular engine...….

Edited May 4, 2020 by cypherman

[legin]

Thanks a lot, Cypherman,

I was a bit worried about the suggestion of oiling the plastic spacers on the axles, and so now I won't.

[melmerby]

You can get conducting oils and greases* of various types but I have never seen these recommended for such things as bearing surfaces on model locos.

 

*Graphite grease is one that comes to mind.