Die Ercallbahn - Fulfilling a childhood dream.

[Woody C]

This is indeed opening up a topic that perhaps has been lost over time. That of the lifetime project, that great vision, commitment, perseverance to doing one layout in a lifetime. I guess there are many reasons why things have gone away from that philosophy, space, life style, the increased availability of models, the massive increase in communication media and one I am very guilty of, the weakness of mindset to stick to one project, one period, one region, etc.  

What I so admire about Ian's layout is the planning and vision that has resulted in a railway system that operates with timetables, destinations and reasons for movement. That together with his several years of work so far and no doubt still to come! It may not appeal to everyone but then again we all have different thoughts on cars or art. Maybe it is an age thing but in the last few years I have developed a nostalgia, understanding and appreciation for layouts such as yours Ian. Keith, you sum it up so well in that final line of reawakening the dreams. For me I am at an age and with commitments that will not see me build that system of a lifetime but my dreams have indeed been reawakened and are to some degree fulfilled by seeing Ian develop his system.

All very philosophical for a Sunday but to lighten the end I did start off yesterday by talking about kitchens and web cam ovens and making my excuses to leave. What I did not mention was that when I enquired about price I was casually informed prices started at £40k with an average cost of £60k Much as Mrs W's has dreams of a new kitchen that price is more like a night mare to me! £60k buys you an awful lot of Marklin railway system!.

[ian]

I'll just leave this here...

 

 

 

[ianathompson]

6 hours ago, ian said:

 

Wow! I am impressed that you have one with the cover still on it!

There are many of Beal's books on my "Modelling shelf" and plenty of those by Maskeline, his predecessor.

 

5 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Like yourself I guess, I grew up enthralled by the basement empires in my Dad’s American Model Railroader magazines.

 

This is the typical British "take" on American layouts.

Magazines such as Model Railroader, to which I subscribe, hands up, propagate the idea of the monstrously large layout as an ideal.

They obviously exist but I suspect that the press over represents them.

 

One disadvantage would appear, to me personally, to be their reliance upon a large "crew" to realise their potential.

Fine. If you wish to spend your cash so that others can enjoy you railroad  go ahead and do it.

I struggle to come to terms with this philosophy.

 

1 hour ago, Woody C said:

That of the lifetime project, that great vision, commitment, perseverance to doing one layout in a lifetime.

 

The great layouts of the past were a product of their time, when there were few alternatives to concentrating upon and building one single layout.

Modellers during the fifties and sixties were much more financially straitened than today's modellers and they often had little choice other than constructing one layout.

It is very easy, today, to flit between one theme and another because so many commercial models are available and disposable income is much greater than it was in the sixties.

 

I have followed the outdated "lifetime path" but, even so, have erred from the true calling and diversified into ancilliary interests.

I look forward as to where this debate goes!

 

Ian T

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

11 hours ago, ianathompson said:

This is the typical British "take" on American layouts.

Magazines such as Model Railroader, to which I subscribe, hands up, propagate the idea of the monstrously large layout as an ideal.

They obviously exist but I suspect that the press over represents them.

 

One disadvantage would appear, to me personally, to be their reliance upon a large "crew" to realise their potential.

Fine. If you wish to spend your cash so that others can enjoy you railroad  go ahead and do it.

I struggle to come to terms with this philosophy.

 

@ianathompson - all perfectly valid points: system layouts aren’t for everybody.  If I understand @ian’s piece however, the question is whether this particular aspect of railway modelling is rather slipping away (certainly on this side of the Atlantic), which for those who do find them exciting would be a loss.

 

Interesting perhaps to note that Linn H Westcott, long time MR editor, comments in “101 Track Plans” (first pub. 1956) that the average size of US layout actually built was probably nearer to 6’ x 11’ - in a caption he appended to an expanded 4’ x 8’ plan.

 

As for press over-representation, I can’t comment from a position inside the industry, but I wonder if there’s an element of marketing - features on well-known larger layouts can add to sales.  It can also contribute to the wider hobby, rather like in the Marklin video our host showed just above: the children start off captivated by a wonderful display layout*, which results in them getting their own, smaller, table top layout.  Obviously it was set up as a promo film, but it would have worked for me at that age (and still does ), Keith.

_____________
 

* admittedly a display layout not a system layout, so a slightly different example.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Oldddudders]

18 hours ago, ian said:

Here's a little something I penned a decade or so ago. Still true:

 

Back in the days of yore there were model railways that put the emphasis on the railways rather than the model. This is something that is still big in the US - models of large sections of railway systems rather than a single station, or part of one. Currently the UK hobby seems to be concentrated on producing rather nice models of a specific location (be it real or imagined) rather than portraying how a chunk of the rail network works and interacts.

The April 1964 RM featured the late David Lloyd's Augher Valley, an Irish narrow gauge mini-empire, and as a 15-y-o it captivated me, just as George Hanan's County Donegal layout articles had before, and the Isle of Man model railway (multiple builders) did later. All NG, which had its own appeal for someone growing up a long way from any surviving prototype, but all having that common format you describe - railways that ran from A to B and probably on to C, if not D as well.

 

So when we moved here and I had a 17' x 20' barn at my disposal, and by then a serious investment in US HO RTR, I designed a layout that included various elements, such as factories/coal-loading plant/grain elevator/creamery, so trip working of wagons - ok, cars - would be part of the operations plan. There were two 'towns' as well. With DCC it worked pretty well, but the smaller station never quite cut the mustard, and increasing awareness of the C21 quality in UK OO led me to convert that part to a West Country junction, where the freight business is limited but loaded passenger trains cross, split, join and shunt. The US HO has been sadly neglected for nearly a decade.

 

Sometimes what we thought we wanted turns out to be less than satisfying. That's life. 

[ian]

I dreamed of a big layout in my younger days but I am also a bit of a thematic butterfly having at times dabbled in UK N, US N, 009, UK O, US O and a smidgen of OO - and that's before we start to look at eras!

 

Some made more progress than others but all were stymied by one or more of: lack of funds, early adoption (e.g. UK N 1970s when there was hardly anything available to run), late adoption (e.g. US 'cheap' O gauge just after Atlas had withdrawn its range), change of available space (always smaller), problems with implementation (usually trying to get a decent coupling system), increasingly searching for photo-realism (think Code 40 N gauge track - hell, for an expanded W&L project I converted the sizes of their sleepers and rail so that my handbuilt track would look right - albeit at 9mm rather than 10mm gauge). Stranded in the mire the next passing butterfly would trigger a new project.

 

I have never been in a position where I have known sufficient like-minded souls tomake a multi-operator empire possible so I have also chased the chimera of automatic operation. The idea of shunting whilst the main line takes care of itself has been with me for many years.

 

It was a Damascene moment when I rediscovered the Marklin and realised it would do all that straight out of the box. No DCC, no computers. With the wonders of the interweb sufficient information and a cornucopia of reasonably priced second-hand stock and track then the world was, as Arthur Daley would say, my lobster.

 

I still have other butterflys fluttering around my head - but for the moment they will remain as background ideas, some taking form gradually as I whittle and wallop my way through this project.

 

Excelsior!

[ianathompson]

7 minutes ago, ian said:

 

I have never been in a position where I have known sufficient like-minded souls tomake a multi-operator empire possible so I have also chased the chimera of automatic operation.

 

My own "empire" cannot sustain multi-operators simply because there is not enough room in the aisles.

Two people is a crowd, although just sustainable (see photo 66 in the current running session).

Having read various articles on developing operator teams (mainly in Model Railroad Planning, the yearly Kalmbach speccial) I am not sure that I would want it to.

 

I find it fascinating that people will apparently drive for three hours, in each direction, to operate someone else's layout.

The oft quoted adage is that, "if you build it, they will come."

Mind you, having said that, this appears to be the underlying premise behind Retford.

 

If you eschew automation, as I do, because I am a Luddite, you simply work through things sequentially.

It takes a long time but provides plenty of enjoyment if you like operating. 

The current "day" on the AFK has been in progress for eight weeks and the time is now edging towards evening.

 

Ian T

[TT-Pete]

3 hours ago, ian said:

I dreamed of a big layout in my younger days but I am also a bit of a thematic butterfly having at times dabbled in UK N, US N, 009, UK O, US O and a smidgen of OO - and that's before we start to look at eras!

 

Some made more progress than others but all were stymied by one or more of: lack of funds, early adoption (e.g. UK N 1970s when there was hardly anything available to run), late adoption (e.g. US 'cheap' O gauge just after Atlas had withdrawn its range), change of available space (always smaller), problems with implementation (usually trying to get a decent coupling system), increasingly searching for photo-realism (think Code 40 N gauge track - hell, for an expanded W&L project I converted the sizes of their sleepers and rail so that my handbuilt track would look right - albeit at 9mm rather than 10mm gauge). Stranded in the mire the next passing butterfly would trigger a new project.

 

snap. Probably the same for a lot of modellers; 1st love v.s 2nd love v.s 3rd love etc... I was already split in about 3 directions when my Dad complicated things even further by leaving me his modelling estate including his pet projects and things I remember from our sprawling "playing trains" layout that filled the attic in my childhood. Sell them?  Or, branch out into yet another gauge, yet another railway company/road, country, era, scale?  Yes, but of course! :^)

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by TT-Pete

[ian]

10 hours ago, ianathompson said:

If you eschew automation, as I do, because I am a Luddite, you simply work through things sequentially.

 

I have a liking for double track (or even quadruple) and thus the automation idea was hatched. However I am shamelessly plagarising your multi-time zone, 3 minutes a move scheme for the Ercallverse - but only for the trains that are fun to play with - the rest can just amble about as part of the background scenery.

Edited September 13, 2021 by ian

[Woody C]

I feel as though I started something here and this time it's not about noise warnings or crime solving police dogs! Note to self - Think before pressing Submit!

[ian]

"Six o'clock and all is well!"

 

I have been taking time out to try and get a basis for an operating schedule for the whole layout (as currently envisaged). This has had a knock-on effect on the branch as it will no longer be the main focus of activity. The practical upshot is that there will not be as many trains or loads.

 

I want to try the 'three-minute' system devised by Ian Thompson on his Altonian Railways system (https://myafk.net/7-out-of-control). Each shunting move is defined as a change of direction by the loco, or a coupling or uncoupling (an uncoupling and change of direction counts as one move). These moves have been set at 3 minutes on the AFK. To this end small, cheap alarm clocks which have been shorn of their second and alarm hands have been placed at Neustadt, Schonblick and Schwarzfelsen.

At the same time I am trying a dice-based layout-wide traffic generation system (well, spreadsheet based, but it simulates dice throwing) to see how well that works. The Neustadt trip freight has been made up ready for the day.

These are the wagons that would be delivered to other industries on the layout. I wonder if I will have enough wagons as the week progresses?

09:39 and the first problem of the day - the outward-bound wagons became uncoupled from the loco during a shunt. Six minutes wasted (stop and revese/recouple).

10:09 and this time the wagons being left for the branch freight won't uncouple. Another three minutes of delay. The coupler on the loco will have to be checked when it gets back to base.

10:27 and the shunting is done. It took 22 moves (66 minutes) with a timetable allowance for 25 (75 minutes).

 

I didn't bother photographing the railbus and main-line passenger trains as they didn't misbehave.

 

About an hour of play so far and time for a break. Next time I'm in the garage attention will turn to Schonblick where the time is currently 07:20.

Edited September 24, 2021 by ian

[Woody C]

Fascinating Ian. I don't think I would even know where to begin on putting together a working timetable/schedule let alone be able to actually operate it successfully. You talk about coupler problems I am showing my ignorance but are Marklin couplings automatic/ have an uncoupling facility or do you need to play shunter with a pole?

[ian]

Like this:

 

 

I'll check it against a gauge and bend it back into alignment.

 

[Woody C]

Thanks Ian. I should have realised that Marklin had solved the coupling issue years ago whilst we still make do with the tension lock. However how does the Marlin loco mounted uncoupled work with the controller. I think Hornby did something similar on an 08 shunter which seemingly disappeared without any being progressed.

[ianathompson]

5 hours ago, ian said:

I want to try the 'three-minute' system devised by Ian Thompson on his Altonian Railways system (https://myafk.net/7-out-of-control).

 

You give me too much credit.

I simply "lifted" the idea from the puzzles that used to appear in Model Railroader years ago!

 

Depending upon staffing and technology levels you can use either 2 or 3 minutes per move.

That obviously equates to 20 or 30 moves per hour.

I chose 3 minutes to reflect the hand thrown points on the narrow gauge..

 

Ian T

[ian]

On 24/09/2021 at 21:34, Woody C said:

Thanks Ian. I should have realised that Marklin had solved the coupling issue years ago whilst we still make do with the tension lock. However how does the Marlin loco mounted uncoupled work with the controller. I think Hornby did something similar on an 08 shunter which seemingly disappeared without any being progressed.

 

Only a few locos were issued with the Telex uncouplers. With a normal Marklin loco you have to send a pulse (by turning the controller knob anti-clockwise from the zero position to change its direction. With Telex fitted locos the first pulse turns the uncoupler on - but the loco moves in the same direction as before - and a second pulse turns the uncoupler off and reverses the direction.

 

The BR 86 tank that usually eorks the branch goods is Telex fitted and it does come in useful.

[ian]

On 24/09/2021 at 23:32, ianathompson said:

 

You give me too much credit.

I simply "lifted" the idea from the puzzles that used to appear in Model Railroader years ago!

 

Depending upon staffing and technology levels you can use either 2 or 3 minutes per move.

That obviously equates to 20 or 30 moves per hour.

I chose 3 minutes to reflect the hand thrown points on the narrow gauge..

 

Ian T

Au contraire mon brave.

 

You had the genius idea of taking that scheme and creating mutliple time zones on the layout so that one gets the best aspects of sequence and fast time operation.

 

Two minutes seems a bit fast for most real movements - but it is amazing how long you have to leave for shunting at three minutes a pop!

[ian]

So hopping in our TARDIS we go back 3 hours and 7 minutes and a few miles north-west to get to Schonblick where we left it. We then have a leisurely breakfast as we wait for time there to get to 10:09 when the passenger loco heads to the carriage siding.

A few minutes later the freight loco starts herding wagons.

10:51 and both the passenger and freight trains are ready to head off to Neustadt. Neustadt needs some more attention now.

The trip freight heads out at 10:48 (Neustadt time) and as soon as it arrives back at the temporary loops the wagons are put away and the loco gets its coupling checked - it was a bit low but quickly bent back into alignment.

10:54 and the S-banh arrives at Neustadt. The branch passenger is supposed to be running round its coaches but, slight problem, it isn't actually here.

 

Checking the master schedule revealed that the entry for the passenger train's journey from Schonblick to Neustadt had been omitted from the local timetable sheets. Ooops.

Still, being master of this little universe has its advantages and the branch passenger can be hustled over in the blink of an eye.

11:03 Schonblick time and the reight gets underway for its run of about 4 yards to Neustadt.

Where it arrives at 11:15 Neustadt time. The timetable claims that the run takes 12 minutes which makes the scehdule look reasonable. If I was using a fast clock the journey would only be timetabled for a couple of minutes.

 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, ian said:

So hopping in our TARDIS we go back 3 hours and 7 minutes and a few miles north-west to get to Schonblick where we left it. We then have a leisurely breakfast as we wait for time there to get to 10:09 when the passenger loco heads to the carriage siding.

A few minutes later the freight loco starts herding wagons.

10:51 and both the passenger and freight trains are ready to head off to Neustadt. Neustadt needs some more attention now.

The trip freight heads out at 10:48 (Neustadt time) and as soon as it arrives back at the temporary loops the wagons are put away and the loco gets its coupling checked - it was a bit low but quickly bent back into alignment.

10:54 and the S-banh arrives at Neustadt. The branch passenger is supposed to be running round its coaches but, slight problem, it isn't actually here.

 

Checking the master schedule revealed that the entry for the passenger train's journey from Schonblick to Neustadt had been omitted from the local timetable sheets. Ooops.

Still, being master of this little universe has its advantages and the branch passenger can be hustled over in the blink of an eye.

11:03 Schonblick time and the reight gets underway for its run of about 4 yards to Neustadt.

Where it arrives at 11:15 Neustadt time. The timetable claims that the run takes 12 minutes which makes the scehdule look reasonable. If I was using a fast clock the journey would only be timetabled for a couple of minutes.

 

I still find it simpler to use a sequence where the times serve only to determine the order in which things take place.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I still find it simpler to use a sequence where the times serve only to determine the order in which things take place.

I think some of my Digitrax throttles have a fast clock facility, but it is just adding some sort of pressure to a relaxing hobby, so I've never used it. 

[ian]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I think some of my Digitrax throttles have a fast clock facility, but it is jusding some sort of pressure to a relaxing hobby, so I've never used it. 

 

Whilst having times appeals to my inner nerd the practicalities of using them for real is a pain in the neck - they need to be 'scaled' to give some semblance of elapsed time for a journey but sufficiently leisurely to consult the timtable, set the route and shunt. It also leaves gaps where an operator can be under-employed. For a lone operator simultaneous movements at two locations are impossible.

 

The sequence method waits for everyone to finish what they are doing so there are no knock-on effects from a problem at one location - the connecting train is never late, shunting doesn't over-run due to a problem.

 

The AFK system seems to combine the best of both worlds - but it is early in the process yet and it may all end in tears!

[St Enodoc]

9 minutes ago, ian said:

The sequence method waits for everyone to finish what they are doing

Not necessarily. My sequence governs the order in which trains begin their journeys. Once they're on their way it's up to the drivers, signalmen and yardmasters to regulate them (under the all-seeing eye of the Fat Controller - usually me - of course!). As long as passenger trains are not held up by freights, for example, and that connections between main line and branch line trains are maintained, any minor variations don't really matter.

[J-Mo Arts]

14 hours ago, ian said:

So hopping in our TARDIS we go back 3 hours and 7 minutes and a few miles north-west to get to Schonblick where we left it. We then have a leisurely breakfast as we wait for time there to get to 10:09 when the passenger loco heads to the carriage siding.

A few minutes later the freight loco starts herding wagons.

10:51 and both the passenger and freight trains are ready to head off to Neustadt. Neustadt needs some more attention now.

The trip freight heads out at 10:48 (Neustadt time) and as soon as it arrives back at the temporary loops the wagons are put away and the loco gets its coupling checked - it was a bit low but quickly bent back into alignment.

10:54 and the S-banh arrives at Neustadt. The branch passenger is supposed to be running round its coaches but, slight problem, it isn't actually here.

 

Checking the master schedule revealed that the entry for the passenger train's journey from Schonblick to Neustadt had been omitted from the local timetable sheets. Ooops.

Still, being master of this little universe has its advantages and the branch passenger can be hustled over in the blink of an eye.

11:03 Schonblick time and the reight gets underway for its run of about 4 yards to Neustadt.

Where it arrives at 11:15 Neustadt time. The timetable claims that the run takes 12 minutes which makes the scehdule look reasonable. If I was using a fast clock the journey would only be timetabled for a couple of minutes.

 

Your layout's atmosphere is most impressive! I particularly like the more 'rural' areas, have you been able to find German building kits in the UK affordable? 

[ian]

3 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Your layout's atmosphere is most impressive! I particularly like the more 'rural' areas, have you been able to find German building kits in the UK affordable? 

Thanks.

 

Given that the baseboards are virtually covered with track any atmosphere is purely accidental!

 

eBay can be a fruitful source of economiclly priced kits - assembled buildings, even if they are only fit for the bin can command eye-watering prices but unstarted old kits from modellers' stockpiles can be quite exonomical - especially comapred to the retail price of the current equivalent.

 

I was also fortunate in acquiring a layout's worth from someone who was changing scale at a reasonable price. Some I passed on to defray the purchase cost and the rest are ear-marked for various locations.

[J-Mo Arts]

I always find that continental themed layouts have a different atmosphere to British themed ones in a way that you don't experience with the difference between, for example, Southern and GWR. Perhaps it is the different architecture, but there is definitely charm in it. 

 

Thanks for the reply, I'll keep an eye out on ebay