Stephenwolsten Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 The book is still on course for delivery to KRM on 5 December. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) Had e-mail today more delays due to bad printing samples, there are plenty of good printers around don't see how there so bad who are they, I would have ditched them first time. Edited December 9, 2018 by paul 27 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 I would guess that the ongoing "delay" will be largely due to both the author and David Postle endeavouring to produce the very best book that they can. On which basis I would say that whatever the delay ends up being, it will have been worth the wait when we all see this book, which I am absolutely sure we all will. As regards printing, sure there are many printers out there, and it has quite probably never been easier to produce good books than it is now, but believe me it is easy to make mistakes (don't ask) and there are even now books on the market that show that printers and publishers can still produce less than stellar results. So, I am disappointed not to have seen the book this month, but pleased that David and his colleagues are taking such care in producing it and confident that when we all see the book it will prove to have been worth the wait. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 Yes I agree was not mocking them only the printers have you seen the proofs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 Yes I agree was not mocking them only the printers have you seen the proofs. Sorry Paul, I did not mean to suggest that you were when I made my post. I haven't seen any proofs and am not in any way involved, although I do believe there has been some sort of issue with the printing, which may possibly not yet be resolved. No doubt David (Postle) will fill us all in when he knows what is happening, I am sure he shares our frustration! In the meantime I look forward to seeing it along with everyone else. Best Wishes Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephenwolsten Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 David's email to buyers explains the problem and illustrates it with dreadful 'sepia' proofs. They are diabolical proofs, and a mystery given all the effort expended. There is no way that the publisher and author could have authorised printing on this basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 David and Colin have gone for four colour (CMYK) printing, something with which I would totally agree if rich blacks and fine-art quality are the aims. However, having gone down the same route with my album on the Vale of Rheidol (see link at bottom to Narrow Gauge Prototype here on RMWeb), I can confirm that it is far from straightforward to get consistent results. It's perhaps easiest if I paste in below.what I emailed to David at the weekend. I understand that the printing of Transition is being done in Poland, which obviously makes supervising the printing more difficult. Bill If it’s any consolation, I'm in the process of self-publishing what should be a high quality B&W album covering the last years of BR operation on the Vale of Rheidol line (see link below) and have also been suffering significant problems. Like you I went down the four colour (CMYK) printing route and I can sympathise with the issues you have had. The first problem was with the proofs, which was obviously nothing to do with the printing process itself, and we eventually pinned it down to my monitor not being set bright enough during the photo-editing process (the initial editing was done using the same screen brightness as I use when printing at home and this produces the correct print density on my Canon inkjet printer). We eventually decided that my monitor needed to be about twice as bright as normal in order to get the correct density on the proofs and I then spent a day and a half at the printer’s (Bayliss in Shireoaks, Nottinghamshire) while a satisfactory set of proofs was produced, using a monitor in their studio to do the final tweaking if necessary. I thought that was it settled and that the actual printing would then be straightforward - I had decided that I would be there (last Monday and Tuesday as it happens) but I was hopeful it would just be for the interest of seeing it done, not that my presence would be vital. Not a bit of it; it was far from being a case of putting the four plates in, pressing the start button and letting everything run automatically. Bayliss use a £2M state of the art press, but it still requires a skilled printer to operate, and for the output to be judged subjectively, with adjustments made manually via the computer controls to the feed of individual inks if necessary, I’m not sure how many sheets were used to get each plate (generally six pages per plate) looking right, but I guess it must have been something like 50 sheets were run through the press every time before a satisfactory result was obtained. I’m reasonably happy with the final result, but I would have to say that it was extremely difficult to get a consistent, reasonably neutral colour cast throughout the printing, and in a few cases there were variations of the colour cast on individual sheets (a magenta cast in shadow areas was impossible to eliminate on a couple of shots, for example, without making adjacent areas look unacceptable blue). Such variations seem to be inevitable with CMYK printing (although hopefully they won’t be too obvious to the average book purchaser) but I certainly can’t complain about the density of black obtainable using this process - the blacks are excellent (much better than the proofs, which Bayliss produce on an Epson inkjet printer, supposedly to emulate the look of the paper and inks of the final output) as, by the way, is the sharpness of the final prints. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139068-30th-anniversary-of-the-end-of-br-steam/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) So these are not going to be colour photos, with all the hassle they might as well just have produced these in normal black & white like his previous books and be printed in the UK, disappointed not being in full colour was hoping they would be reproduced from his exhibition at the KRM. Edited December 11, 2018 by paul 27 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 So these are not going to be colour photos, with all the hassle they might as well just have produced these in normal black & white like his previous books and be printed in the UK, disappointed not being in full colour was hoping they would be reproduced from his exhibition at the KRM. The question is, what is 'normal' black and white? To get outstanding (rather than run of the mill) quality B&W reproduction needs at least duotone printing i.e. using two plates, black and a light grey but printers seem to be very reluctant to offer this route (partly, it would appear, because pre-proofing isn't possible). Having had two pallets of my Vale of Rheidol album delivered on Wednesday, I will now rescind what I said previously about CMYK printing being the route to go for best quality B&W - if neutral B&W is the goal this is the very last way to choose. My book looks fine under daylight (or daylight balanced artificial light e.g. as the sheets of six pages did in the viewing booth next to the printing press) but get it under warm domestic lighting (2700K) and the purple-brownish cast is really quite unpleasant (at least to my eye). I understand this is the issue that David Postle is grappling with, but a solution seems to be on the horizon - if I recall what he told me the other day when I 'phoned him for advice, the solution is to print a CMYK separation using two black plates (the K channel as normal and the C channel) and light grey for one of the other two channels. I'm not sure whether this qualifies as tritone printing, which I thought used black and two shades of grey, but perhaps someone out there can clarify. Having discussed it since with my own printer, he is going to do some duotone trials to see what can be achieved and I will reprint if it can be done cost-effectively. If I can bring Never Again into this thread, I still haven't opened my parcel of books (waiting for Christmas Day!) but I have received comments that the B&W reproduction has a brownish cast - inevitable given that it is a mixture of B&W and colour shots, so must have been printed by the four colour method. As the comments on the Never Again thread have been so favourable I'm hopeful that any colour cast will not be too obvious but it would be interesting to know what anyone else's thoughts on this are. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 We tried doing what was then called 'four-colour black and white' about 20 years ago on the magazines that I was working on at that time. The theory is based on the fact that, if you mix the four colours of light you get white light - if you mix the four colours of pigments you get black. I never saw a satisfactory result (and bear in mind this was a magazine process, not a top quality book). I disliked it intensely and was glad when we gave up on it. Frankly, nothing looks as good as really well printed letterpress on really good art paper - as was done with Colin's original books but such process would now be outdated. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 (edited) We tried doing what was then called 'four-colour black and white' about 20 years ago on the magazines that I was working on at that time. The theory is based on the fact that, if you mix the four colours of light you get white light - if you mix the four colours of pigments you get black. I never saw a satisfactory result (and bear in mind this was a magazine process, not a top quality book). I disliked it intensely and was glad when we gave up on it. Frankly, nothing looks as good as really well printed letterpress on really good art paper - as was done with Colin's original books but such process would now be outdated. (CJL) There's a classic example in the current issue of Steam Railway magazine, I think around pages 66 & 67 (I don't have it in front of me). A black and white photograph spread over two pages exhibits completely different colour casts one side to the other. Bill Edited December 23, 2018 by Bill Jamieson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 There's a classic example in the current issue of Steam Railway magazine, I think around pages 66 & 67 (I don't have it in front of me). A black and white photograph spread over two pages exhibits completely different colour casts one side to the other. Bill Sounds like par for the course but I wasn't aware SR was still using them. It may be that, when you're running a four-colour magazine it is easier to run four-colour black and whites than it is to run monochrome. These days,however, proofing is a very different process from that of the actual printing press. One is reliant on the operator and the electronics of the press to match the printed result to the proof. I suspect Colin would be unlikely to place a picture across two pages (unless it was a centre spread), as it causes all manner of potential problems with mismatches, alignment etc. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Sounds like par for the course but I wasn't aware SR was still using them. It may be that, when you're running a four-colour magazine it is easier to run four-colour black and whites than it is to run monochrome. Yes, I presume that is the case - in fact SR seems to use very few B&W images these days, and those seem to be mostly archive material). A couple of years ago I emailed them a monochrome shot of Flying Scotsman on Borthwick Bank when it visited Tweedbank, and the response (it is perhaps noteworthy that I actually got a response) was 'nice shot, have you got it in colour'. Of course still being a film user, I didn't! Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Strathwood Posted December 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2018 There's a classic example in the current issue of Steam Railway magazine, I think around pages 66 & 67 (I don't have it in front of me). A black and white photograph spread over two pages exhibits completely different colour casts one side to the other. Bill Spreading an image across two pages is one of my pet hates, I have to say. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Spreading an image across two pages is one of my pet hates, I have to say. Kevin OK on the centre spread of a stapled magazine but not in bound books and not in perfect-bound magazines. The latter is a battle I routinely lose! (CJL) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted December 26, 2018 Share Posted December 26, 2018 Latest from David P.:- Update 24th December 2018 The first paragraph which I wrote on the previous update can be repeated word for word again as it is still very appropriate. "Firstly once again a very big thank you to you all for being so patient for so long and for the countless messages of good will and support we have received from you all, as we continue to ensure we bring you a top quality product for you to savour and to indeed do justice to Colin Gifford's artistic craftmanship. I have shared many of your comments with Colin and he has told me he has been humbled by your response and wants nothing but the very best for his loyal readership." The previous update mentioned that I was awaiting some more running sheets which were specified to match the proofs which I had approved rather than repeat the exercise of producing sheets which did not match the proofs. Those new running sheets took a bit longer than promised to come, but the positive news about them is that they very nearly came up to our expectations, and there was a definite rich black taking the place of the more brown colour previously supplied. If you were to ask on percentages, I would say we are 90-95% towards producing a really good book with the intensity of black I have been looking for since we started. Unfortunately the Christmas holiday has now halted further progress for a couple of weeks, but I am seriously hoping that this time is really 'third time lucky'. I am currently looking to specify a slightly different ink so as to bring the best out of the lighter tones, and when we have seen the results of that I am sure that we will be able to give the go-ahead for what hopefully is the final time! As far as timing goes, we have, much to my disappointment and no doubt yours, missed giving you something to read at Christmas and for which I am truly sorry. As you know the whole world seems to shut down for some time over Christmas and I do not expect further sheets to be available until the first week or so of the New Year. However, once I am satisfied that all our expectations will be met, I would hope that we will see a finished book being dispatched before the end of January. As with previous updates, the offer is always there for any of you to have a refund if you wish as I know I am holding your money far longer than it was originally intended. However, if you are still willing to persevere, and hopefully not for too long now, then I am, as I have said before, very grateful for you patience and understanding. Until I receive the latest sheets in the first week or so of January I am not able to give you a firm date, but I would be disappointed if we do not see the book appear before the end of that month. I will however, keep you informed and write again in early January, but the most recent advances are very encouraging I have to say. This is by way of a general circular and there are a few of you for whom I need to write an individual reply, so if you could bear with me for a few days until after Christmas, I will respond to you individually as well. In the meantime, I wish you all a very Happy Christmas and prosperous New Year. Many thanks Best Wishes David Postle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephenwolsten Posted December 26, 2018 Share Posted December 26, 2018 Avoiding the brownish tinge (sadly found in the MNA books) is vital, however long it takes. I just hope that when David and Colin are satisfied the printer can replicate what they approve. Fingers crossed........... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 Not being an expert in black & white printing I was referring to normal as run of the mill as still being printed today, I was still hoping it would have been all full colour as expect others would agree would have been a welcome change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 David Postle has recently posted an update on the KRM site. Bill The positive news to relate is that March 2019 is the month when the book finally gets printed. Some of the running sheets were received on 13th February and the quality of the print was just what we had hoped for, so our confidence is high that the rest of the book will now be printed to our exacting standards. Currently pdfs are being completed for the remainder of the book and will be with the printer before the end of this week. The actual print schedule will then become available and will be posted on this site. Arrangements have been made for us to see the remaining running sheets off the end of the press and this will provide an extra layer of quality control now that we have hopefully solved all the technical problems. So as we finally reach the finishing straight with hopefully no more hurdles to overcome, the updates will become more frequent as we post positive dates for each of the stages in the process. The actual dates will become clearer over the next couple of weeks as we progress each stage. Once we know an exact delivery date (now to be counted in weeks rather than months!), then we will try and organise another launch of the book, maybe to coincide with one of the events on the SVR. We very much regret the delays in the production of this book but hopefully we can appreciate that when it finally does arrive, it will be a fitting example of the work of one our finest railway photographers in Colin Gifford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 Email received from David Postle at Kidderminster Railway Museum today states:- The latest positive news to relate to you all is that I can now give you a definite date for the publication of this book. It is not quite as soon as I would have liked but I will have the completed print-run, bound and delivered and in stock here on May 2nd. As most of you want signed copies, the priority will be to get Colin to sign them as soon as I have them delivered. As this will be a Thursday, and it is Bank Holiday weekend two days later, I would anticipate at this stage that we will be sending your books out during the week commencing May 6th, providing Colin's wrist keeps up the pace! Bill 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted May 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2019 Got my copy hand delivered by David tonight. I am lost for words - this book is breathtaking. Beautiful printed and presented. I promise no one will be disappointed 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2019 Does that mean you were at Worcester Loco meeting Mike? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted May 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: Does that mean you were at Worcester Loco meeting Mike? Phil No Phil but live in Worcester and David offered to drop it off on his way there. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 11, 2019 Cheers! Have been a member of Worcester Loco since late 60s - and still a great bunch of folks Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 On 07/05/2019 at 22:23, MikeParkin65 said: Got my copy hand delivered by David tonight. I am lost for words - this book is breathtaking. Beautiful printed and presented. I promise no one will be disappointed Just received my copy and I can only echo Mike's comments. The printing is superb and some of the subject matter would have bidders going crazy if the negatives came up on Ebay. I have not looked through the entire book just yet, as my heart probably would not stand the excitement all in one go; but just from the first pages I have glanced at, the O4 hauled coal train passing Doncaster with DP2 moving around the station and a Deltic on a down service at the far platform, the EE Type 1 double heading with a WD at Scunthorpe, and the 8F assisting a failed AC electric and train near Widnes are just a few that made me sit open-mouthed. The shots inside sheds/depots are so sharp I wonder just how he managed that in difficult and low light conditions. This book is almost a time machine. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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