BluebellModeller Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) Hello. I am in need of some assistance from someone with access to a computer based layout building software. Something along the lines of SCARM, AnyRail, TraxEditor, whatever you've got. I'm currently operating on an Apple Mac and the only software available to me is not free to use. All I need is for someone to take my hand-drawn plan and transfer it to a computer-generated layout. It needs to be in a brand of track available in America (Atlas is preferable and flex track is great) and fit onto my baseboard, which is 100 inches by 47 inches. The plan is below. The shaded out area is road, and the various small shapes are various structures. The rectangles in the right hand corner are sheds which have not found a basis yet so no measurements are not available; same with the long rectangle on the left side. The structure in the center is a shed and turntable. the dimensions are below (all in inches). Any liberties you have to take are fine by me. Thank you in advance BM Edited July 25, 2018 by BluebellModeller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 Hi BM, Your request is unrealistic for all sorts of reasons. If you really need a computer design (why?) then it would be best for you to create it yourself. Why not buy the software you need? (Remember you can run Windows apps using VMs on Mac.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 Hi BM, Your request is unrealistic for all sorts of reasons. If you really need a computer design (why?) then it would be best for you to create it yourself. Why not buy the software you need? (Remember you can run Windows apps using VMs on Mac.) If I had the money to buy the software I would. Sadly I do not. What else is unrealistic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) It's a bit much to expect others to draw a complete plan for you. We don't know if you're serious or that this will ever be built before you change your mind. The signs are that you haven't really thought through your design. So the effort of drawing the plan would probably be wasted - this forum has been through several episodes like this before, I'm afraid. How will you afford it if you can't afford a few dollars for software? The scan of your plan is incomplete. What we can see looks a bit odd - the only way of switching trains between lines is the turntable. You don't say what scale the intended model is in. You don't say how the layout fits into the room (i.e. where the walls/backscenes are). And when you do, that will almost certainly raise more questions. I guess most of the people on this forum are not familiar with "Atlas" track. Edited July 25, 2018 by Harlequin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) Templot can run on a Mac using WINE. However there have been many, many layouts designed using pencil and paper - just look at Iain Rice. Edited July 25, 2018 by meil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirey33 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Go old school. A pencil and some old wallpaper; and a rubber. [And not to pry into your finances, but if you can't afford software, how can you afford track?] 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 The whole exercise is pointless. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelrow Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 BM, hi, having done all the work, i fail to see the need to put it on a computer.. Why not just start playing with some track. Thats what 90 % of us do. To my mind, thats the beauty of the hobby. Trial and error. john 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme3300 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 BluebellModeller, If you still want to explore a computer-design program, XtrkCAD is free and does cater for Apple Mac users. Try: www.xtrkcad.org/ Hope this helps. Graeme 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podhunter Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Help with Computer Designed Layout What is the benefit, in your view, of having a 'computer designed' layout? Computers don't design anything -- people do! You're the person to design your dream. A computer may help to tidy things up and keep them in order, but a computer has no imagination. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 IMHO the old is way is still the best. Layout the track onto the board using drawing pins (thumb tacks) as temporary fixing while you work out the design. I've used computer design software and then found myself changing the plan as I laid the track. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 I computer-designed my layout but got fed up of trying to get it right. I printed out my basic idea 1:1 and stuck it to the floor then messed with track and trains until I got it right. Then I built it from my drawing, not what the computer program would let me do. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) I computer-designed my layout but got fed up of trying to get it right. I printed out my basic idea 1:1 and stuck it to the floor then messed with track and trains until I got it right. Then I built it from my drawing, not what the computer program would let me do.I did pretty much the same. I found I could join turnouts together how I want them but when I started adding flexitrack it was difficult to judge the length and near impossible (that might just be me!) to get any kind of curves correct, so I printed off them turnouts and simply used pieces of flexitrack to establish lengths and curves and simply drew around these. I did this on the back of leftover wallpaper. Edit to add: I then traced this onto greaseproof paper (big roll for about £1 from supermarket) and after sticking down foam underlay simply used the tracing to transfer the plan to the underlay by simply poking a pencil through the plan leaving a series of dots which I then joined up. Edited July 25, 2018 by sp1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) Some programs are better than others but a lot of them do "get in the way" a bit too much. However, I'd argue that good software will help you make a better plan than pencil and paper or actual size templates. And the better the plan, the less chance of mistakes and the fewer the changes in the real model. You'll always change your plans when you build the real thing but a good plan gets you closer to something that's going to work well. (Computer generated or pencil and paper.) Edited July 25, 2018 by Harlequin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 N gauge presumably. You can't get much into 8'4 X 4ft. Forget computer programs for now. You have an image viewer presumably, I use Faststone Image Viewer which is free but there are others. Grab a screenshot of someone else's layout of about the same size and play with it, Get it to size you like, a convenient size so you can measure off lengths on a ruler etc and tweak the plan. Use the length of the points on the plan as a guide and make your changes match the existing points and track spacing, I is reasonably obvious how sharp a curve you can use. I have never found a computer generated plan which can't be improved when you come to actually build the layout or a computer designed layout which actually works without unforseen complications mainly due to viewing angles and baseboard supports which aren't always where one assumes when drawing a plan. I do screenshots of other people's plans and re post them here to show "Improvements" I have made. I Grab regular screenshots as I proceed in case I decide to back track. see pic 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 From the US, you can easily get track from Hattons. Extremely cheap postage too I might add. Have no clue how they managed to ship me 4 lengths of flextrack for less than $10 US yet I cant ship a small box the other way for less than $20. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) N gauge presumably. You can't get much into 8'4 X 4ft. Forget computer programs for now. You have an image viewer presumably, I use Faststone Image Viewer which is free but there are others. Grab a screenshot of someone else's layout of about the same size and play with it, Get it to size you like, a convenient size so you can measure off lengths on a ruler etc and tweak the plan. Use the length of the points on the plan as a guide and make your changes match the existing points and track spacing, I is reasonably obvious how sharp a curve you can use. I have never found a computer generated plan which can't be improved when you come to actually build the layout or a computer designed layout which actually works without unforseen complications mainly due to viewing angles and baseboard supports which aren't always where one assumes when drawing a plan. I do screenshots of other people's plans and re post them here to show "Improvements" I have made. I Grab regular screenshots as I proceed in case I decide to back track. see pic Sorry, I can't let this pass: Small point: FastStone Image Viewer IS a computer program, of course... There's no reason why a computer generated plan should have more problems than a paper drawn one (or a FastStone Image Viewer drawn one ;-) - they're all just different methods of making a 2D drawing. It's easier to try different options in a proper design program and to get your dimensions, radii and alignments spot on than on paper. (Especially important when trying to squeeze a design into a tight space.) Grabbing regular screenshots as you make changes... This is why proper programs have an Undo function... P.S. I mean the above in the general sense. In the context of this thread I don't think the OP will really gain anything by using any kind of software at this stage. Edited July 25, 2018 by Harlequin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 I’m happy to provide many more details; this post was made late last night without much thought of the fact that lots of people would see it... If you guys think it doesn’t matter to have a layout designed in a computer program then I’ll simply leave the matter to rest. Thank you for your advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) For what it's worth, BM, I didn't design my current layout at all, just had a general idea of what I wanted and laid bits of track and card representations of pointwork temporarily and loosely about the place until I got something that was workable and looked good. Planning is vital if you are very limited in space, but as soon as this sort of constraint is relaxed even a little, you can wing it a little, and it is my opinion (other opinions are available and may be of superior quality) that a more natural look results. Very few prototype track plans were applied to scaled up 8'x4' rectangular pieces of land... This approach requires you to have some stock and at least the footprint floorplans of the buildings in cut out card form to position about the baseboard and check for clearances and appearance, so you can do a bit of preparatory modelling or purchasing before you start to build the layout! But you need to establish a few things in your own mind first. What sort of layout do you want, do you need to design it at all or can it just be done on the fly like mine, what sort of prototypical track plan are you basing it on, can you design it yourself with a sheet of A4, a ruler, compass, portractor and pencil, or do you need a computer, and if you do, what does the computer bring to the party (you can probably tell that I have never used a computer to design a model railway). Does it need to have continously running trains, or can it be an end-to-end. How tightly does it need be fitted in to your available space (I recommend not as tightly as is possible so there is a bit of a feeling of space to it). I would recommend some of the standard track plan books that are easily available and not very expensive, but not that you follow such a plan slavishly; use them for inspiration and adapt them to your own needs. Some of them require very advanced wookworking skills to make them work; stick with the easy ones. Sometimes less is more. Edited July 25, 2018 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluebellModeller Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) It's a bit much to expect others to draw a complete plan for you. We don't know if you're serious or that this will ever be built before you change your mind. The signs are that you haven't really thought through your design. So the effort of drawing the plan would probably be wasted - this forum has been through several episodes like this before, I'm afraid. How will you afford it if you can't afford a few dollars for software? The scan of your plan is incomplete. What we can see looks a bit odd - the only way of switching trains between lines is the turntable. You don't say what scale the intended model is in. You don't say how the layout fits into the room (i.e. where the walls/backscenes are). And when you do, that will almost certainly raise more questions. I guess most of the people on this forum are not familiar with "Atlas" track. 1. I now understand it was a big ask. However based on my interactions with others in the past getting help drawing up layouts it's not that much work or effort required especially on a computer; at least that is what they have told me. Perhaps they were only being polite and it is a lot to request. I had no idea since I have never had the ability to do it myself. 2. The plan is serious; I have the baseboard already built. However, this is a completely valid point and due to my unfamiliarity with any past issues you guys may have had with requests similar to mine I'd like to apologize for not being more detailed before posting. 3. I have spent weeks building up this trackplan based on tons of photos of the original setup. As juvenile as it sounds I am planning on recreating the main sheds set from the original Thomas show on my baseboard. If you are following my Bachmann Thomas thread you will be able to gain a greater understanding of why I am using a serious medium like scale modeling for something that seems so childish. I will be happy to post the various reference photos I have complied to create this drawn-up plan in order to authenticate my efforts. 4. I'm still living under my parent's roof and it is a strongly enforced and personal family rule that they don't approve of me buying apps online. They are fine with me spending money on track and stuff though. Hopefully this makes sense. 5. The scan is complete; bleeding into your next question, the sets that the Thomas show was filmed on were usually just seen from a certain angle so a full setup as in a layout was not necessary. Often, as is the case with my plan, the area past the main focus of the set just simple ran off. Meaning, this is less of a layout and more of a diorama piece. Same concept as a layout though since I am planning to electrify and dress it as though it is a layout (as the original Thomas sets were) 6. The scale is 00 7. The baseboard is against a wall in the corner of my attic. 8. Atlas track is HO scale track easily available in the US. What is the benefit, in your view, of having a 'computer designed' layout? Computers don't design anything -- people do! You're the person to design your dream. A computer may help to tidy things up and keep them in order, but a computer has no imagination. I am a person who likes to know what I'm getting into before starting. As many of you have said, you like to just start fiddling around and using trial and error: BM, hi, having done all the work, i fail to see the need to put it on a computer.. Why not just start playing with some track. Thats what 90 % of us do. To my mind, thats the beauty of the hobby. Trial and error. john But this does not work for me. Having tried this method of "just going for it" many times with previous modeling projects it usually turned out to be a frustrating waste of money and time, neither of which are in great abundance for me. So having this drawn up as a computer generated plan is helpful because my brain works in a way that likes to see on a piece of paper how everything will fit together, to scale, measurements and all. This cannot be achieved on pen and paper easily without sacrificing a great deal of time and exerting meticulous penmanship. So computer design seemed the best way to go. IMHO the old is way is still the best. Layout the track onto the board using drawing pins (thumb tacks) as temporary fixing while you work out the design. I've used computer design software and then found myself changing the plan as I laid the track. I fully expect the IRL plan will differ from the computer generated one. But I'd still like to have a starting point for the reasons stated above. From the US, you can easily get track from Hattons. Extremely cheap postage too I might add. Have no clue how they managed to ship me 4 lengths of flextrack for less than $10 US yet I cant ship a small box the other way for less than $20. This may be a better alternative so for anyone reading this who might now want to help due to my clarification, feel free to use any brand of track available on eHattons. I had no idea their rates were that cheap. As my final word before I let you all give your thoughts, I would like to say this. it might be confusing to all of you to have a young person like me on this messaging board with tons of experienced and talented scale modelers asking for advice for a project which seems to be, as some people have called it: pointless. However, this is a passion project. Both the screen-accurate Thomas thread and this diorama/layout thread are both posted in this board for three reasons: 1. Thomas is a UK basis loco and this is a UK centric modeling board. 2. I have perused other sites far more relevant to Thomas and spoken to many individuals who also model Thomas in 00 scale and none have been able to help me with what I would like to achieve 3. You all have extreme know-how and great tips to help me, as evidenced by the already-present responses. I will try to be more articulate with all my posts surrounding this topic in the future. For me, this stuff is a no-brainer, and I sometimes forget that 99% of you have no idea what the heck I'm blabbering about. Anyway, let me know what you think, and feel free to keep the clarifying questions coming. I'll leave you all with this last image which is a shot from the show of the set/diorama I am trying to create Edited July 25, 2018 by BluebellModeller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 4. I'm still living under my parent's roof and it is a strongly enforced and personal family rule that they don't approve of me buying apps online. They are fine with me spending money on track and stuff though. Hopefully this makes sense. Sorry, it doesn't really make sense - it's the way the world is going. However, as mentioned once already on this thread, XTrackCAD runs on MacOS and is free. Personally I don't get on with it but it does exist as a possible solution to your problem if it's the paying money element of buying apps online that is forbidden. (And it does appear to include Atlas track in the downloadable package: http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/ParameterFiles.) Edited July 26, 2018 by ejstubbs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) I have looked at Atlas on Any Rail and it looks horrible. Main issues poor geometry, excessively long points (Switches) for their radius, lack of 3rd radius, 19/20" Radius and mix of 30 degree and 22.5 degree based curves. 15" Atlas 1st Radius curves won't work well with many UK outline locos, Bachmann 0-6-0 chassis simply won't get round. Basically as 3rd radius is too tight to curve flexi to in my experience the Atlas track range won't get the job done in 47 X 100. 50 X 100 is a different ball agme as you can use 22 and 24" radius. Can you get Peco track in the USA? A mix of code 100 streamline and 3rd and 4th radius, 20 and 22" radius or 2nd and 3rd 18" and 20" radius Set track curves and code 100 Sreamline points should work well. Screenshot (72) done in Trial versio AnyRail and added to in Faststone image viewer is Peco set track curves 2 nd and 3rd radius 18/20" radius, with Streamline points. Now the set track track spacing is 60mm or more and streamline 50mm so either short bits of track are needed between points or the straights need to converge but Streamline points at 3ft radius are vastly better for avoiding derailments and appearance than 18" radius set track points . Atlas turntable is 10" which is marginal to turn "Gordon" but I used it with the Peco track. There is a long carriage siding and somewhere to play with trucks clear of the main line so with isolated sections on both main lines two trains can run, a third shunt and locos turn and run to shed separately if you have 4 controllers or DCC Platforms on the curve are dead easy if you follow the full size and build the platform wall first and fill in behind. Edited July 26, 2018 by DavidCBroad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 26, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) You can function perfectly well without a computer when it comes to designing and planning railways. You need to go to a stationer's or even a pound shop or whatever equivalent you have stateside and buy the following items:- 1) An A4 size pad, preferably with a grid or graph pattern to an established measurement. 2) A good quality clear plastic ruler, or better still two, one short one long. 3) A pair of compasses capable of holding a pencil or Bic type ballpoint pen. 4) A portactor, again clear plastic. 5) Pencils, about 2H, sharpener, eraser, and ball point pens in different colours You also need a flat, steady, surface (desk or table top) to work on, and if you are subject to parental house rules may need a piece of card or hardboard to rest the pad on to protect it's surface from the compass point. Keep the work away from food as you'll get grease on it otherwise. Decide on a scale. I use 1 foot to the inch, because I am a wrinkly and work in old money, but if you use that new fangled metric stuff I'd suggest about I metre to 10 cm, but it is not critical and the most important thing is that the drawings you make are easy to read and interpret. Then practice using the equipment if you are not familiar with it, so that you can draw smooth and accurate scale curves with the compasses. If you are planning a layout using setrack curves, it may be worth cutting some curved pieces of card to setrack radii to draw around, but you will need the compasses to mark them out. Play with it for a bit. Get used to the geometry of drawing out your chosen pointwork, and the angle to which the points diverge; this is what the portractor is for. Items 2,3, & 4 can be bought in a school type geometry set; you'll get a pencil eraser as well. Start by drawing out the edges of the baseboards, as these are the limits you must not go beyond. If you are modelling an end to end layout, make the locomotive headshunt for the run around movement your starting point, and do not put the engine release crossover in until it is longer than your longest possible loco; my layout is entirely locomotivised with GW tank engines, and I leave a foot for this. You are modelling Thomas, and Gordon may need an inch or so more; Murdoch certainly will! Now, decide how long your longest train is going to be. You need about 6 inches clearance at each end of the loop for the engine to run around; don't make the mistake of assuming that the loop is the same length as the platform, it should usually be longer. You can, if you wish, use the different colour ball points to indicate different DC control circuits, or differentiate between running lines and sidings, or anything else you wish to highlight. I draw the whole thing in pencil first, so that I can correct and alter it, and draw over the pencil lines with the pens. Leave a lot more room than you think you need, for everything. Setrack track centres are arranged so that stock will clear stock on the opposite line in the curves, but note the manufacturer's recommendation for minimum curves if you are running modern image 75 foot + long coaches, as they will overhang at the centre and ends on curves. When you come to lay the track, you will inevitably find that it doesn't sit the way you planned it, it never does, and you will be grateful for the extra room you left. You may want to incorporate transition curves; I try to draw these freehand as they are very difficult otherwise. If you are going to incorporate gradients, keep the top and bottom transition curves at least an engine length from any pointwork. Draw the plan as accurately as you can, but when you come to laying the track out on the real baseboard, use it as a guide not as an instruction. I have probably spent enough time planning and drawing out imaginary layouts in this way over the years to have built a layout; it is something I find very relaxing and therapeutic. Enjoy!!! Edited July 26, 2018 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Can you get Peco track in the USA? A mix of code 100 streamline and 3rd and 4th radius, 20 and 22" radius or 2nd and 3rd 18" and 20" radius Set track curves and code 100 Sreamline points should work well. There's also Kato H0 Unitrack which may well be worth a look, with radii covering 370, 430, 490, 550, 610, 670, 730 and 790mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 I can’t imagine laying out a layout without a computer . The latest is a 32foot x 15 portable 0 gauge . It would be impossible with old school approaches , actual track. or “ wallpaper “ . I’ve used computers for the whole design process, including track planning , 2D and 3D for baseboard modeling etc. Playing around with lengths of flexi , At around 3 grand in total isn’t realistic , CADs the only way How do you lay out transistion curves or complex formations , especially isn’t flexi , sounfs like you would waste an awful lot of flexi that way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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