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Pre-Grouping Product News & Information

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An idea I had whilst browsing Hattons' website just now...

 

A thread for news relating to products that concern the pre-grouping modeller, be they kits, ready-to-run models, books, etc...

 

The idea came about when looking for suitable pre-grouping RTR wagons, and the apparent lack of them and also the possibility of the ones did find being highly inaccurate.

 

So, as the first question here, may I ask if anyone can think of any current RTR wagon models that are either directly suitable for, or can be adapted to suit, the pre-grouping -more specifically pre-WW1 for me- modeller?

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Good job I bought one then! I knew that one... but any others?

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Bachmann 1923 wooden solebar 9ft w/b wagons can be backdated to represent 1907 rch types if you are prepared to:

Remove brake gear from one side

Replace oil axle boxes with grease ones

However, the livery may not be accurate for pre grouping - it all depends on the po owner/company in question...

 

Article along these lines in the Sept RM I think...

 

The Hornby 4 plank with a wooden chassis needs similar work to back date it but the brake gear needs more carving away and solebar detail reinstated.

 

If the strapping is adjusted to effectively remove the side door the Clee hill wagon looks a good match for pre WW1.

 

DrDuncan

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The Dapol po wagons are 17ft 6in ones with 10ft W/b with steel chassis (or at least their Clee hill one is) so not much use for bashing as it is clearly longer than pre grouping types...

D

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Bachmann 1923 wooden solebar 9ft w/b wagons can be backdated to represent 1907 rch types if you are prepared to:

Remove brake gear from one side

Replace oil axle boxes with grease ones

However, the livery may not be accurate for pre grouping - it all depends on the po owner/company in question...

Umm. If they are 1923 spec, then they are 16'6" over headstocks for 12-ton wagons. I thought the 1907-compliant wagons were all shorter (yes, I know that a owner could get a longer design approved, but usually they didn't if the reference design covered the right load).

 

Also, most of the 1907-compliant wagons were 10 tons load.

 

FWIW, the SECR bought in 1910 some traffic coal wagons that were very close to the 1923 spec. 12 tons load, 16'6" o/h, brakes each side. Built by Hurst Nelson. A 7-planked PO wagon could be painted grey to suit. The solebar fittings won't be quite right, but not too horribly different (William Barter had an etch made to convert, I don't know if he has any left).

 

EDIT: somewhat like this one I built from a Parkside Dundas kit with William's solebar etches:

post-22875-0-61385200-1532625266.jpg 

Edited by Guy Rixon
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Also, Hornby do (did?) some 3-plank drop-side wagons lettered for private owners. If these liveries are real then the models would do very nicely. Wagons lettered for quarry owners would be worth checking. Also Scott & Middleton (structural engineers since 1901, covered in Turton vol 9).

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The Hornby dropside wagon isn't a terrible match for a Lancashire and Yorkshire example, at least body-wise. The Triang closed van, the ex-Trackmaster one, has a body that is remarkably similar to a L&YR closed van. It needs the roof modifying and a sheet rail (?) added to the doors, and of course the chassis needs replacing, perhaps with a Dapol 9-foot example. See here for photos.

 

And there's the old Hornby Hull & Barnsley van, but I've never seen any photos of the prototype to enable me to comment on the accuracy of this. Once again, it should fit pretty neatly on to a Dapol 9-foot chassis.

Edited by HonestTom

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The Hornby 3, 4, and 6-plank wagons have at least the right basic dimensions for RCH 1887 specification wagons. I've improved several 6-plankers with new running gear or complete new underframes from Cambrian:

 

post-29416-0-88595600-1533243872_thumb.jpg

 

post-29416-0-34258200-1533243499_thumb.jpg

 

post-29416-0-40762600-1533243506_thumb.jpg

 

The Hackett wagon, with the original solebar/headstock moulding but the running gear cut away and replaced with brass W-irons and whitemetal axlebox/spring units (all MJT) is seen alongside a Slaters kit for the Gloucester 6-plank wagon, showing that the Hornby body isn't too bad - though a little odd in places, such as the side rail. Building the Slaters kit is way easier than converting the Hornby wagon, so the effort is only really worth it if the livery printing is particularly exquisite.

 

Bessey & Palmer sadly turned out to be a post-Great War livery. On the other hand, many of the liveries applied by Oxford and Bachmann to RCH 1923 wagons or by Hornby to the horrid steel-framed 10' wheelbase monstrosities actually belong on pre-Grouping PO wagons, usually ones to the RCH 1887 specification.

post-29416-0-34258200-1533243499_thumb.jpg

post-29416-0-40762600-1533243506_thumb.jpg

post-29416-0-88595600-1533243872_thumb.jpg

Edited by Compound2632
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Try Parliamentary Trains for early LNWR.

Www.parlytrains.co.uk

 

Think they’re 0 gauge though.

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I’ve been looking at the rch 1907 specs in the Essery book the history of wagons and thinking about GW practice...,

 

It seems that the load in tons bears little relation to the volume of the wagon body. Instead it is the axle box and journal size combination that difference in size. For example GW 1 & 2 plank wagons rated 8 tons became 10 tons when fitted with oil axle boxes and thicker journals. In the 1907 specs 10tonners have grease axle boxes and thinner journals than the 12 tonners for which oil boxes were preferred. So it would be feasible to have a 1907 spec 16.5 ft 7 plank wagon at 10 tons with grease boxes up rated to 12 tons during its life by changing to thicker journals and oil boxes (and post 1911 brakes on both sides ).

 

D

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Does anybody do an RTR iron mink these days?

 

Come to think of it, does it have to be RTR? Some kits are easy to build, and there's plenty of transfers available.

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I’ve been looking at the rch 1907 specs in the Essery book the history of wagons and thinking about GW practice...,

 

It seems that the load in tons bears little relation to the volume of the wagon body. Instead it is the axle box and journal size combination that difference in size. For example GW 1 & 2 plank wagons rated 8 tons became 10 tons when fitted with oil axle boxes and thicker journals. In the 1907 specs 10tonners have grease axle boxes and thinner journals than the 12 tonners for which oil boxes were preferred. So it would be feasible to have a 1907 spec 16.5 ft 7 plank wagon at 10 tons with grease boxes up rated to 12 tons during its life by changing to thicker journals and oil boxes (and post 1911 brakes on both sides ).

 

D

 

Broadly true, but you'd also need to change the springs for the higher load. New axleboxes would only be needed if the old boxes could not contain the larger journals. There were many designs of box that could hold a range of journals. However, there were also many that could not be so upgraded. Oil boxes would be fitted not to raise the rated load, but to increase the distance a wagon could go before being inspected for hot boxes.

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Does anybody do an RTR iron mink these days?

 

Come to think of it, does it have to be RTR? Some kits are easy to build, and there's plenty of transfers available.

 

The Ratio kit has been around a very long time but is still as easy to build as it ever was. It does help to trim 1mm off all round the tops of the sides and ends.

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The Ratio kit appears to be one of the later builds with longer bonnets in which case they would have been fitted with oil 'boxes, and be rated 10 tons,  from new (1898-1901). I still prefer the ABS kit though...

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It seems that the load in tons bears little relation to the volume of the wagon body......

While many mineral wagons could not physically hold the weight of coal for which they were rated, they could hold that weight of, for example, iron ore, which is much denser than coal.

 

Jim

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It's quite crude, but the old Hornby coke wagon (not the hopper) is based on an example used by the North Eastern Railway (in fact, they produced it in something like North Eastern livery, among others). You'll want to replace the chassis, though.

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It's quite crude, but the old Hornby coke wagon (not the hopper) is based on an example used by the North Eastern Railway (in fact, they produced it in something like North Eastern livery, among others). You'll want to replace the chassis, though.

 

... then the body.

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It's quite crude, but the old Hornby coke wagon (not the hopper) is based on an example used by the North Eastern Railway (in fact, they produced it in something like North Eastern livery, among others). You'll want to replace the chassis, though.

 

If you mean the object pictured below, then, no, no, and, err, no ...

 

I own one because I thought to supplement the NE-themed rolling stock on my daughter's school project layout, but in the end I decided it was just too God-awful even for a 10-year old to bear.

 

"Based on ..." only in the sense that Braveheart is "based on" historical fact, I'm afraid.

post-25673-0-78060100-1536862445_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-87684600-1536862479_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-07428200-1536862525_thumb.jpg

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James - where are the drawings from for the NER hopper wagons please? I’m in need of a couple for Duddon Bridge, but not being knowledgeable about North Eastern stock I’m not sure where to start!

All advice gratefully received thanks :-)

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James - where are the drawings from for the NER hopper wagons please? I’m in need of a couple for Duddon Bridge, but not being knowledgeable about North Eastern stock I’m not sure where to start!

All advice gratefully received thanks :-)

 

These are the NER diagram book drawings.  They are contained in spiral bound volumes reproduced by the North Eastern Railway Association  (a worthy cause!).  I have two volumes covering wagons,1891 and 1904. They are available to purchase, and cost less for members, IIRC, £3-4 each IIRC.

 

You would need to work off photographs, as the drawings are quite sparse, but would give you the necessary dimensions.  I will PM you.

Edited by Edwardian

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If you're after the NER diagram books and a lot of other NER literature, try Second Chapter Books in Shrewsbury as I sold most of my NER collection to them a few weeks ago. As for trying to tart up up the old Triang- Hornby coke wagon, don't even go there -  I tried many many moons ago and it's several hours of my modelling life I won't get back.

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Thanks CKPR - Edwardian has very kindly provided me with the info I needed :-)

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