Hornby dublo

[robmcg]

Having pondered long enough,and already having enough track to make either a tabletop circuit or diorama in Hornby Dublo, I just a few minutes ago bought an EDL1 Gresley LNER blue Sir Nigel No.7 and three tinplate teak carriages, including an 'all third', unboxed, for £80 post free,  and then in answer to the call from my heart for an EDL18 2-6-4T early crest boxed. I can add certain goods wagons to fit the childhood desire for the relevant set, such as the two bogie wagons and brake van... good runner, tidy box, £55.

 

And I thought you said this was non-addictive...    ?

 

I have so far avoided late version 3-rail with nylon wheels,  because unlike some around here, I have self-discipline!!!! 

 

 

 

p.s.  how do I avoid buying a Silver King early crest and 4 tinplate BR Gresley coaches please?  With Gresley bogies....   

 

there must be some sort of pill,  or do I have to wait until my bank balance is printed in red?  

Edited May 19, 2019 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Answer to question posed above,  I buy a tidy serviced unboxed Silver King....   and prepare to bid on other delectable treasures from the past...

 

The A4 has an incorrect late-crest tender, but would I have worried about that in 1962?  Not likely! It also has non-original coal.  

 

 

 

and wouldn't you know it?   someone local has put a near-mint serviced Atholl up for auction....

 

But I am a mature adult of sober habits, and I already have one of those...   

 

The burdens are many, but we trudge onwards  !!!!

 

cheers

[Colin_McLeod]

Enjoy the Dublo.  Get it running and then you will understand the addiction.

[Il Grifone]

"I have so far avoided late version 3-rail with nylon wheels,  because unlike some around here, I have self-discipline!!!! "

 

Go on! You know you want need them!

 

(The nylon couplings are a bit of a pain, but at least don't need careful adjustment like the metal ones.)

 

The A4 tender 'coal' is always bent (Acetate strikes again!).

You can always add the 'correct' tender later.  They are all the same under the paint. A nice 'Mallard' could be a tad cheaper bereft of tender.

 

The all-third has two variations (apart from being half of the articulated set. The gangway portion on the end can be black or brown (allegedly to represent a non-corridor coach - umm no!). I think only the third comes with this choice, though there is no reason the composite and brake couldn't.

Afterthought!

The very last thirds (sold in 1954 - I can remember seeing some on sale back then, but short of pocket money...) had the grey roof of the BR version. It doesn't really count as it's easy enough to swop roofs.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Il Grifone

[robmcg]

I have found some Eastern Region tinplate printed-style BR Gresleys and have been wondering about such as 'later' 3-rail Eastern Region carriages in sets, the crimson-cream versions look to my untrained eye to be the same as the Staniers in the Montrose sets... complete wih 'M' numbers.  Can this be so?  'Flying Scotsman' with Mallard and LMR coaches?

 

Or are they a sort of short hybrid BR Standard?

 

I bought another Silver King, this one in an EDP11 BR set, looks dead tidy, good box, one extra tinplate BR ER carriage,  100 notes, I couldn't resist, under-priced or about market more likely.

 

Curious thing, one Ebay seller has 1947-52 engine instruction pamphlets, original, open bidding at UKP5   and has sold several in the last week, all have been bid up to UKP26-33.     A bit weird?  There cannot be that many buyers looking for these?  Usually the same buyers bidding them up.

 

The pamphlets are available on the web as PDFs and it would be easy to print some, but these often tatty originals half the price of a good engine?   or the price of a tidy tender...

 

Also one ER Gresley tandem coach set, with and extra brake , UKP50 opening bid,  have no idea what it's worth, I'm still waiting to find the five pound box of junk with the treasures at the bottom .   

 

 

 

 

How could you not buy this for the price of a slap-up night out?

Edited May 20, 2019 by robmcg

[Colin_McLeod]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

I'm still waiting to find the five pound box of junk with the treasures at the bottom .   

 

 

 

 

Aren't we all! 

[Il Grifone]

The last Gresley coaches came with BR bogies (I wondered why at the time!) and then disappeared altogether. They were replaced in the sets by the Stanier coaches (again these are based on real coaches, but too short (not a lot,but...). The crimson and cream and maroon versions have the same numbers as the LMS ones, but lack the regional suffix (it should be M4193M etc.), but they used the same stampings for the Western Region chocolate and cream coaches and gave them numbers of BR Mk I coaches (naughty!) The 'matching' restaurant car is acually a GWR design (as is the TPO mail van). They were having a bit of a GWR fad at the time with the reintroduction of the GWR goods brake van in BR livery (I acquired one of these as soon as it appeared - 6/9d IIRC) and the 'Castle' Class* locomotive (I had to wait until Xmas for this one!). A few years later all the coaches were replaced by the SD6 models (again too short which spoils an otherwise excellent model (they are still the best representaion of the flush windows).

The full brake and non corridor coaches (at least the maroon ones) were in reality shorter than the others, but the models still don't quite make it (by about 1/2" - no real excuse).

 

* This is a model of the last series with the squared off inside cylinder cover, and obviously they chose 7013 'Bristol Castle' for their 'Bristolian' train set. Unfortunately this is the locomotive that swopped identity in 1952 with 4082 'Windor Castle' (the Tri-ang TT prototype) and it is incorrect (as was noted at the time with the real thing). In fact, of the four Dublo Castles, only 7032 'Denbigh Castle' is correct as built (some Castles were modified later, but that story is complicated).

 

EDIT

 

I forgot (despite rambling on!) that the first BR Stanier coaches correctly have LMS bogies, but later ones have BR bogies. it appears that this change dates to the introduction of the D13 non-corridor coaches in 1954 as they have the positions for drilling the alternative pivot holes marked.

 

Trix Twin did a shortie full brake which can pass as an ex LMS 42 foot vehicle. It's a little low in the body side, (Trix never could decide what scale they were using!  - allegedly "just over one-eightieth*" to quote the 1954 Year Book. The same publication states 3½mm to the foot so you "pays yer money and takes yer choice!" - but replacing the Trix rollers with Dublo wheels (or better the complete bogies) will mitigate this. It will couple perfectly with Dublo, but will jam on a Dublo uncoupling rail. The dropper can be bent out to cure this, but Trix tinplate fractures more readily than Dublo, so care is required. Unfortunately the 'scale' Trix coaches are noticeably smaller than Dublo.

 

* Whatever that means - just over eighty or just a bit bigger in size?

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Il Grifone

[robmcg]

I can see the 'approximation to reality' was widespread, and to be honest I have never been too worried by it in the context of a 4' gauge and especially three rail track. Shorter carriages perhaps suit the illusion when on 15" radius curves,  But details I agree should be more-or-less 'right'. Regional variations matter too.  I used to think the A4 was a bit poor around the cylinders even as a child or young teenager, and took to 2-rail H-D like it was the best thing since sliced bread. Then I began Kitmaster and then Airfix models...  Now of course having bought three 3-rail A4s I am prepared to overlook this approximation with regard to detail on the part of 50s Dublo stuff...      

 

Actually I am currently recovering from a shock to my bank balance having not only spent a bit of H-D 3-rail goodies but just been charged for air-freight on the Atholl set with controller, 7.5kg air freight to NZ.  I had optimistically thought might be £20-30 but was £45....  the burden of being a colonial!  In the 50s and 60s our NZ retail was about and sometimes over double the UK price...  import duties, mark-ups and so on, together with a 6-month wait,  so it could be worse.  But at least we know the British Empire is still in good heart.   Ask Nigel Farage.  On the other hand...     moving quickly along.

 

We have done a further stock-take of H-D stuff buries in the vaults of our family home, and unearthed further treasures, wagons mostly, this is like archaeology  really

 

 

The only model left about which I entertain thoughts, currently anyway   is the maroon 3-rail Duchess 'City of London' ,  rare or common? and are there variations to look for?

 

Cheers  

 

p.s. The later BR Mk1 SD6 coaches really were rather good, weren't they! Far too modern with plastic parts, but what can you do?

Edited May 21, 2019 by robmcg

[sagaguy]

Of course,you could always roll your own!.

 

                             Ray.

[Il Grifone]

I see you have the mega rare SR meat van there   These usually see for £25 upwards in resonable condition. There's also an insulated contained which still has it's paper labels, in itself very uncommon. These things are really awful, even Tri-ang made a better effort (or even the Trix one, the design of which dates from pre-war.

 

'City of London' is 2 rail and not uncommon. The 3 rail 'Liverpool' on the other hand goes for around £250 or more. Conversion is quite straight forward as a 3 rail pickup (also getting pricey) will just replace the 2 rail one or you fit plungers in the tender as its chassis is the same as the 8F. Ideally pickups need to be added to the insulated wheels to short them to chassis (I find one is enough) or if using the tender pickup solution just connect the ware to chassis. The magnet needs to be reversed (using a keeper or it will need remagnetising!) or she will go the wrong way.

As far as I know there are no variations, but look out for Wrenn versions, though these usually go for 'Liverpool' prices (or more  ). For some unknown reason they redesigned the chassis for the City. The wheels do now line up with the splashers, but it just needed a bit off the front of the chassis to fix that. IMHO the Duchess crosshead is far superior to the bit of bent tin on everything from the 4MT onwards. The A4 valvegear was probably a rush job to update the model when the LNER decided to cut away the valance over the wheels. It's still better than Tri-ang's attempt at M. Walschaert's masterpiece, at least it does have LH and RH versions. Tri-ang have one side of their locomotives going forwards and the other backwards .

 

The shipping charges work the other way. We would probably also get done for £18 customs duty plus £8 charged by the post office for collecting it!

 

The site ban on politics prevents me from commenting on Nigel Farage, which is probably just as well. He just got covered in Sundae, which was quite amusing!

[robmcg]

Well it has all been a rather fast re-introduction to Hornby Dublo for me, with a lapse of 56 short years! 

 

I am pleased that these is still a strong interest in these lovely models, and the compromises in modelling accuracy are for me anyway counterbalanced by the sheer pleasure the mostly metal construction, robustness and longevity, and simple attractiveness of the models.

 

I have always been somewhat bemused by the need for complete accuracy preached by many, in 00 gauge no less, with its obvious compromises, and such as the inclusion of crewmen on cab which while pretty enough are to my mind the antithesis of accuracy because they never move...  to my eyes anyway. To me it is awakening of the imagination which matters when running a train, as well as the pleasure of a nicely-crafted model.

 

Also a great pleasure is hunting for bargains or at least not being ripped-off , a perfectly nice 2-6-4T went for UKP21 just a few hours ago on Ebay, somewhat less than I paid for a boxed one two days ago, but it's all part of the pleasure.

 

I'm in two minds about the models from the 2-rail-3-rail era, which co-incided with my 9yr-14yr age, the best and most memorable layouts we had in our family home in those days were temporary and on the front room floor with 3-rail, and I learned to 'time' trains with the second hand on a watch for average speeds and so on, I did well at maths at school <g>

 

Recently I have been enjoying photographing some of the best 00 or H0 RTR  models and they are very fragile, and brilliantly made, but the beauty of Hornby Dublo will endure because ultimately just like the fragile modern RTR models they are very enjoyable models.

 

Somehow this morning I won an auction for 4 tinplate BR ER Gresley carriages, which will look a picture behind Silver King, painted windows and all, and not only that, they would be capable of running on a 4'  3' slab of medium density board, or more likely a 6' x 4' affair, to be stored vertically behind a desk when out of use.  I would build it on the carpet but for certain other issues , like being in a wheelchair, but hope to photograph some of these purchase as soon as they reach me over the next few weeks.

 

Thanks for all the information and guidance, it is great fun.    Now, to buy or not to buy....   

 

question, how common is the D22 marooon BR tinplate coach..?

 

and here is that fine example of precision die-cast magnificence....

 

 

and just to add to the mix, pictures adapted from advertising

 

 

 

and is it just me or do the plastic/metal hybrid models rather invite comparison with later Hornby models and thus lose a little of their charm?  It might be the photography but I'd swear the lining is a bit less fine, too...  

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by robmcg

[Il Grifone]

I think the lining has always been the same, The orange is nearly as wide as on the real thing! (OK I exaggerate a bit, but 1/8" scaled down is theorectically below the limit of resolution of the human eye (1/250th of an inch). Apparently it is the contrast that makes it stand out, as the cream and the grey on the mixed traffic lining tend to merge into each other.

 

The D22 coaches are quite common, apart from the 'matching' (for some reason it's a different colour) restaurant car which is considerably less so. It took me ages to find one! However they only had a relatively short run, so are harder to find than the others, The first ones had metal wheels, but I think I am correct in saying that all the restaurant cars have nylon wheels.

[NCB]

I'm tempted! Always wanted a 2-6-4T but it was a choice between that and the Castle and the Castle won. I've been meaning to dig out my old stuff, photograph it and give it a trial run. The dining room table is now clear enough for a bit of it. Time's a bit short at the moment though. Will see what I can manage.

[robmcg]

47 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

I think the lining has always been the same, The orange is nearly as wide as on the real thing! (OK I exaggerate a bit, but 1/8" scaled down is theorectically below the limit of resolution of the human eye (1/250th of an inch). Apparently it is the contrast that makes it stand out, as the cream and the grey on the mixed traffic lining tend to merge into each other.

 

The D22 coaches are quite common, apart from the 'matching' (for some reason it's a different colour) restaurant car which is considerably less so. It took me ages to find one! However they only had a relatively short run, so are harder to find than the others, The first ones had metal wheels, but I think I am correct in saying that all the restaurant cars have nylon wheels.

 

Ok it must be the lighting and photography which renders the Dorchester lining  a bit more coarse than the A4 above it.

 

With D22s are you talking red-cream or maroon versions please?

Edited May 23, 2019 by robmcg

[sagaguy]

I find that original Dublo lining way too thick & garish.When i refinish my locos ,i use Fox lining sets as on Crediton below.

 

                           Ray.

[robmcg]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

...

The D22 coaches are quite common, apart from the 'matching' (for some reason it's a different colour) restaurant car which is considerably less so. It took me ages to find one! However they only had a relatively short run, so are harder to find than the others, The first ones had metal wheels, but I think I am correct in saying that all the restaurant cars have nylon wheels.

 

Interesting, and I have to say I noticed that the real trains of the steam era often had mis-matched colours too.

[robmcg]

On 22/05/2019 at 10:25, sagaguy said:

Of course,you could always roll your own!.

 

                             Ray.

 

Lovely stuff.  At the height of BR steam and the introduction of 'The Caledonian'  in 1957 these engines certainly were the bee's knees, and by 1964 when I think production ceased most of the real ones had been scrapped, what an age!

 

I created a picture of the train using my current Hornby models, edited with PSP6 software, I hope the mods and the OP will allow it.  When I run my Duchess around my 4' x 3' circuit it will look almost the same!

 

 

That track is almost Hornby Dublo 3-rail, too.

 

 

 

[Il Grifone]

The Stanier crimson and cream coaches were D12, the chocolate and cream D21and the maroon D22. There were matching restaurant cars for all 3 colour schemes, but the maroon version (it really is glaringly different from the other maroon coaches) appeared later (1959 IIRC) making it the rarest. The SD6 restaurant cars are very rare and command hign prices. I did get one cheaply but it had been repainted.  They changed the catalogue numbers with 2 rail, hence the early restaurant cars are D20 and the maroon version is 4049

 

There are some examples here, but seem to have all been sold (note the BR maroon is referred to as carmine,: it's not!) There's one of the last Montrose sets with maroon coaches. The black Atholl and City are "hard to find" because they are repaints (Duchess of Atholl should have smoke deflectors in black livery and City of Edinburgh should have a 'semi' smokebox to be pedantic.) The boxes are definitely modern (Cooper?). Originally locomotives and tenders were sold separately and came in individual boxes. It wasn't until the advent of 'Bristol Castle'* that they were sold together in a singe box. The difference in the colour between the maroon coaches can be clearly seen, especially with the upper one.

 

http://www.chuffers.com/Hornby_Dublo/hornby_dublo.html

 

and a 4070 SD6 car at a not unreasonable price. I've seen them at a lot more. (I'm not sure if the wagon description SD6 is also correct for the coaches, but it is a convenient way to differentiate them.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162725144684?ul_noapp=true

 

* Always my favourite Dublo model (but see below!) The only (G)WR loco they ever produced (an N2 in GWR livery doesn't count!).

 

P.S. I've just noticed there's an interloper amongst all that lovely Dublo - a Tri-ang station set. Is has all the usual bits missing - the chimneys and awnings of the buildings and I think there should be a couple of fences too. Still someons thought it worth the money (probably for the box?!). At least the seller's prices were reasonable for once.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Il Grifone

[LMS2968]

5 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

The black Atholl and City are "hard to find" because they are repaints (Duchess of Atholl should have smoke deflectors in black livery ...)

Actually, No. This engine had quite a complex history.

 

On 23/1/45, the engine was given tender 9812 from 6249. At that time the engine was in still crimson lake livery but the new tender was black, and still streamlined.

The engine was painted plain black in September that year for the following reason, so red engine / black tender - explain that at an exhibition. In July 1945 she was involved in a bad accident at Ecclefechan and was under Heavy General repair 27/7/45 to 22/9/45, and the tender was probably partly destreamlined at this time, but both emerged in plain black. The 1946 lined black livery was applied in August 1946 and smoke deflectors added the following month.

 

So the black livery without smoke deflectors is correct - it's the tender which is wrong!

Edited May 24, 2019 by LMS2968

[Il Grifone]

I rather feel for Meccano Ltd. on this one. Ithey design a rather nice model  Duchess in 1939 just in time for WW II to block its release and then their prototype gets fitted with a double chimney, her tender swopped and painted black (not particulary inspiring for a toy!). Smoke deflectors must have been the last straw, so they left her in wartime condition.  I'd assumed (always fatal! I should have checked) she was fitted with deflectors at the same time as being repainted, but it was only a short period.

 

The history of the Coronations is very complicated....

[robmcg]

3 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I rather feel for Meccano Ltd. on this one. Ithey design a rather nice model  Duchess in 1939 just in time for WW II to block its release and then their prototype gets fitted with a double chimney, her tender swopped and painted black (not particulary inspiring for a toy!). Smoke deflectors must have been the last straw, so they left her in wartime condition.  I'd assumed (always fatal! I should have checked) she was fitted with deflectors at the same time as being repainted, but it was only a short period.

 

The history of the Coronations is very complicated....

 

Well David, you will insist on this thing with Swindon! 

[jimwal]

15 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

(note the BR maroon is referred to as carmine,: it's not!)

 

Back in the seventies I had several S/D maroon coaches and some brown/cream ones. They all had variations in their liveries, they seemed prone to fading particularly the maroon ones. Those shown looked to have faded, this may have misled the person writing the description. A few of my coaches went a similar way and two went orangey, almost LNER teak!. The brown/cream suffered rather less.

The shed the railway was in had no windows (better security) but had a translucent roof for light. I realised too late what a colour killer this was.

[Il Grifone]

On 24/05/2019 at 22:36, robmcg said:

 

Well David, you will insist on this thing with Swindon! 

 

When you get it right the first time....

[Il Grifone]

On 24/05/2019 at 23:56, jimwal said:

 

Back in the seventies I had several S/D maroon coaches and some brown/cream ones. They all had variations in their liveries, they seemed prone to fading particularly the maroon ones. Those shown looked to have faded, this may have misled the person writing the description. A few of my coaches went a similar way and two went orangey, almost LNER teak!. The brown/cream suffered rather less.

The shed the railway was in had no windows (better security) but had a translucent roof for light. I realised too late what a colour killer this was.

 

Unfortunately sunlight fades tinplate (and self coloured plastic) badly. Some of mine have to live in the conservatory, but I try to keep them sheltered from direct light (so far so good!). Damp is also a killer. The SD6 coaches are particularly prone to rusting around the windows. There were probably differences between batches of printing as well. The restaurant car is however definitely a case of starting out as a different colour. There probably was only a single batch of these. I've seen D12s where the crimson has faded badly to a pink shade. (Luckily not mine!) But red is not a very stable colour anyway.

[Colin_McLeod]

I read somewhere that originally BR painted the restaurant cars crimson, as opposed to maroon, so that they were easy identified.  I am open to correction as I can't find it now.

 

If that was the case them it is possible that Hornby Dublo were being accurate and up to date.  Hornby tended to only produce the latest prototype livery so they would have changed to maroon when BR did.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Colin_McLeod
typos