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Farish J72

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New topic in anticiipation.....

Thanks, good idea to set this up :) it will be great when this eventually appears. I haven't seen any news at all so let's hope it is still in the pipeline. I imagine it will follow the new 4mm scale version which seems to be progressing well.

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On 23/01/2019 at 14:37, mdvle said:

 

What a shame. Although not an n gauge modeller, as a NER enthusiast I would have been tempted by one. No doubt it is an indicator of the current market. 

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10 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

What a shame. Although not an n gauge modeller, as a NER enthusiast I would have been tempted by one. No doubt it is an indicator of the current market. 

 

I wouldn't say it's an indicator of the current market more reflective of the position Bachmann/Farish finds itself after the recent issues they have faced over the last year effecting production and becoming significantly behind in getting announced products to market as well as insurmountable technical/design problems.

 

G

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16 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

I wouldn't say it's an indicator of the current market more reflective of the position Bachmann/Farish finds itself after the recent issues they have faced over the last year effecting production and becoming significantly behind in getting announced products to market as well as insurmountable technical/design problems.

 

G

 

I see, that's interesting. I understand the first point but not so much the technical issues. It should be a perfectly feasible model to design, despite the small size. 

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33 minutes ago, south_tyne said:

 

I see, that's interesting. I understand the first point but not so much the technical issues. It should be a perfectly feasible model to design, despite the small size. 

 

Nope. According to Bachmann (at the 2019 trade/press event) one of the issues was that the internal boiler diameter is just too small to accommodate an appropriate/suitable motor. Presumably at some time in the future there will be one suitable (performance and cost as well as size) but I guess they are also concerned about scale accuracy issues.

 

G

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23 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Nope. According to Bachmann (at the 2019 trade/press event) one of the issues was that the internal boiler diameter is just too small to accommodate an appropriate/suitable motor. Presumably at some time in the future there will be one suitable (performance and cost as well as size) but I guess they are also concerned about scale accuracy issues.

 

G

 

Fair enough. It's suprising that they only discovered that after announcing the model mind! :scratchhead:You would have thought it would have become apparent in the earliest stages of R&D. 

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29 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Nope. According to Bachmann (at the 2019 trade/press event) one of the issues was that the internal boiler diameter is just too small to accommodate an appropriate/suitable motor.

 

Have they not seen the Dapol Terrier? A poor excuse.

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Not when they have to make it to today's standards. The Dapol Terrier is over 10 years old now, is essentially just a motor on a chassis, is not DCC ready so needs some work there and in the examples I've seen it suffers from limited haulage and sketchy pickup, non of which would really fly on a model produced today.

 

Rather than leaving it dragging on for years on end like the Ivatt or producing a sub standard product, surely it's better Bachmann be up front and honest that its not currently possible for them to produce it to the standards expected from them?

 

Of course this opens the door to Dapol to pick it up again, but I suspect they would face similar issues as Bachmann. 

 

Tom.  

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You can DCC the Dapol Terrier - just needs a new handbuilt chassis, motor, extra pickups etc - like the 2mm FS ones on Freshwater. :)

 

edit: Oh and I think he managed a stay alive capacitor as well - amazing.

Edited by woodenhead

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2 hours ago, TomE said:

Not when they have to make it to today's standards. The Dapol Terrier is over 10 years old now, is essentially just a motor on a chassis, is not DCC ready so needs some work there and in the examples I've seen it suffers from limited haulage and sketchy pickup, non of which would really fly on a model produced today.

.  

I've over 10 Terriers none of which struggle to haul prototypical trains, and longer where I've used the chassis as a tender drive. Never had a pick up problems and know they can be converted to DCC, As Dapol managed it 10 years ago surely Farish have had 10 years worth of advanced technology to draw on and, I believe, their micro motors are smaller than that in the Terrier.

Dapol have proved with the 142 you don't have to make things to todays standards ;)

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11 minutes ago, Gareth Collier said:

Dapol have proved with the 142 you don't have to make things to todays standards ;)

 

Not in a good way, unfortunately! 

 

It's probably not a case of Bachmann being unable to produce a J72, but they clearly don't feel they can do it at the standards they have set for a price that wouldn't result in histrionics on the forums.

 

Tom. 

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10 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Not in a good way, unfortunately! 

 

It's probably not a case of Bachmann being unable to produce a J72, but they clearly don't feel they can do it at the standards they have set for a price that wouldn't result in histrionics on the forums.

 

Tom. 

I am guessing space for a speaker might be pushing it on this model once Bachmann figure out how to squeeze in the motor and DCC gubbins without issue.

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4 hours ago, Gareth Collier said:

Have they not seen the Dapol Terrier? A poor excuse.

 

I doubt it's an excuse - more a practical and business reason/issue as far as they are concerned. It may be possible to produce a model at the quality and performance that would be acceptable to both Bachmann and the market but the engineering and production costs would probably mean the price would be unsustainable. Don't forget that although you claim that your Terriers perform well you do significantly fettle the chassis and models (such additional work would add to production costs) while many others who have purchased Dapol Terriers have complained about their performance.

 

But if you, or anyone else, feels they could design a quality J72 in N gauge scale to modern standards why not approach Bachmann and offer to your services on a commission/consultancy basis. I'm sure many N gaugers would welcome it. 

 

G.

 

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35 minutes ago, Gareth Collier said:

Graham, I know the written word can be interpreted many ways but I don't appreciate the tone of your reply.

I am not claiming, I am stating a fact. What are you basing your statement that I significantly fettle the chassis on? The only chassis I've done anything to was when a wheel was lose on the axle. Sure, I've removed bodies and trimmed down footplates to fit in tender bodies but that's as far as fettling has gone.

You appear to be creating facts to dismiss my comments in order to excuse Farish, poor show, especially for the NGS Journal Editor!

Your final comment is tiresome as it is basically "if you think you can do better". Like I said Dapol haven't bothered with modern standards for the 142 but it's still selling. Is the Terrier really that poor and if so don't you think a 10 year old design can be improved upon, of course it can. Stop making excuses for manufacturers and have a think about what you're typing before you hit the submit button.

 

Equally I don't particularly like the tone of your response (calling my comments tiresome, a poor show and so on which is somewhat a personal attack) but my suggestion was a serious one. You obviously do have some experience fiddling with small locomotive chassis and ensuring that they run well.  Consequently it might well be that you can offer Farish some development advise.

 

I'm not making excuses for manufacturers, I simply stated the reasoning behind their decision, but it certainly seems to me that you are sniping about them.

 

G. 

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Merely responding in kind. You made a sweeping ascertain re fettling which you've now quantified and the "if you can do better" attitude is tiresome in that it's always rolled out as an excuse and basically saying my claim on running qualities was a lie as I fettle them could be perceived as a personal attack.

I'm sure Farish already have the expertise, they have shown in recent years how compact they can make a chassis with the introduction of the micro motors being located in the loco, the Ivatt 2mt for example. If they didn't think it was possible why announce it unless it was to affect Dapol's already announced one? If Dapol could manage the Terrier 10 years ago I'm sure the might of Bachmann could manage something better today.

That said the Farish announcement that Andy posted up only cited financial reasons not motor size, it was your post that mentioned motor size. I cannot see how questioning motor size as an excuse is sniping.

Happy modelling.

 

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It's a shame Dapol withdrew their planned J72 because of the competition. As it is there is no ex-LNER tank engine available RTR—nor is there likely to be. Farish did the J69 long ago, but the tooling was later modified to create a "generic" 0-6-0T. Bachmann reissued the later J94 more recently, but appear to have lost interest. There is no sign of the DJM J94 appearing either. Back in the 1990s—before purchasing Farish—Bachmann speculated about producing a V1/V3 in N but that has never shown up and I doubt it ever will.

 

I do not see why a J72 in N gauge has to have DCC. Considering that Dapol keep issuing new versions of the Terrier, presumably it sells well enough despite being not up to "modern standards". I hope Dapol produce a J72 after all, "modern standards" or not. I'd rather have a non-DCC model than one with what Bachmann consider to be adequate quality gears. Given their inability to produce reliable gears despite ever-increasing prices (would accurately machined metal gears, or good quality nylon gears, really add that much to the price?)

 

Bachmann's attitude to quality, together with their failure to develop the range to any extent in recent years, is causing me to devote most of my interest to German-prototype models—where all the main classes have been modelled to a high standard, and can often be obtained second-hand for quite reasonable prices.

 

Still, Bachmann are no doubt celebrating their bronze BRM "N gauge manufacturer of the year award" —third in a three-horse race!

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4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 (would accurately machined metal gears, or good quality nylon gears, really add that much to the price?)

Simple answer is yes.......

 

Dave

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On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 15:55, D9020 Nimbus said:

It's a shame Dapol withdrew their planned J72 because of the competition. As it is there is no ex-LNER tank engine available RTR—nor is there likely to be. Farish did the J69 long ago, but the tooling was later modified to create a "generic" 0-6-0T. Bachmann reissued the later J94 more recently, but appear to have lost interest. There is no sign of the DJM J94 appearing either. Back in the 1990s—before purchasing Farish—Bachmann speculated about producing a V1/V3 in N but that has never shown up and I doubt it ever will.

 

I do not see why a J72 in N gauge has to have DCC. Considering that Dapol keep issuing new versions of the Terrier, presumably it sells well enough despite being not up to "modern standards". I hope Dapol produce a J72 after all, "modern standards" or not. I'd rather have a non-DCC model than one with what Bachmann consider to be adequate quality gears. Given their inability to produce reliable gears despite ever-increasing prices (would accurately machined metal gears, or good quality nylon gears, really add that much to the price?)

 

Bachmann's attitude to quality, together with their failure to develop the range to any extent in recent years, is causing me to devote most of my interest to German-prototype models—where all the main classes have been modelled to a high standard, and can often be obtained second-hand for quite reasonable prices.

 

Still, Bachmann are no doubt celebrating their bronze BRM "N gauge manufacturer of the year award" —third in a three-horse race!

 

 

Hi Nimbus

 

I share your disappointment at the ongoing lack of an LNER tank loco in British N. The J94 is the subject of a crowdfunding appeal by DJ Models, and that may or may not appear depending on take up, but for my money even that is not a true LNER tank loco.

 

I would say that it is a necessity for modern models wherever possible to be DCC ready, but that caveat is important. There are still Farish models like the 08 and 04 that are not DCC ready, they are not impossible to convert, and what makes the hardwired installation of a smallish chip in the space doable is the lack of the DCC socket, it takes up a lot of room. Even I have managed an 08!

 

So, in the case of the J72, noting Grahame's comments, the design was based around the assumption that the motor would, like the Jinty be in the boiler with the motor shaft pointing backwards, this would leave room for the 90 degree DCC socket In the cab area. The J72 is quite a bit smaller than the Jinty hence the motor diameter becoming an issue. Of course if the DCC socket weren't there, I suspect that installing the existing motor the other way round in the cab/tank area would be possible, with a good chunk of weight around it too. 

 

The NGS Hunslet has proved what can be done if instead of a DCC socket a pre-installed custom DCC chip is used which can also accommodate "stay alive". This would appear a logical route for the J72 too because then the motor could be reversed, but the Hunslet will only be available to members and with no dealer margins to factor in at around £80 a pop very attractively priced. Were a J72 to be produced by Bachmann using similar technology what would it need to be priced at and would people buy it? This is a difficult one unless you have an inside knowledge of the industry, but I would suspect that the chips if now designed would add little to the cost if purchased in bulk, and installation little more challenging than a DCC socket if this was considered at the design stage.

 

So, at the end of all that, what price would the model need to be sold at? We have already seen the 64xx breach the £100 mark, so my estimation would be a RRP in the region of £130 plus by the time we were to see it. Allowing for the 15% dealer discount and the fact that DCC users would not need to spend another £20 ish on a chip, I would say for many it could well be, but then others would complain about a chip they don't need, and others still baulk at the price regardless!! So, doable or not, Bachmann are playing safe and have kicked it into the long grass. I suspect sadly we will never see it.

 

If the size was the issue there are other bigger tank locos though like the J50 that would fir the bill. The Hornby 00 one seems to have done well enough.

 

I do agree that the hiatus of new models coming through is frustrating, but we do know the reason why, and when the move is finished and production ramps up again, our British N models will still have to find their place in the queue. In this respect I am concerned that the sheer volume of new releases and re-releases from existing tooling is highly ambitious and will result in yet more criticism if it doesn't happen.

 

Where I must respectfully disagree with you is with regard to Bachmann's attitude to quality. I have a wide variety of the most recent BachFarish models, both steam and diesel, without exception they look stunning and run exquisitely. Accurately machined gears in metal would cost more to be sure, but aren't in themselves the solution necessarily anyway. Metals need to be chosen so that they do not cause wear on one another, in my experience a problem when Farish did this all those years ago. I do agree though that in diesels at least, moving to nylon gears (like the Class 40) would cause less to split and this should by now have been addressed.

 

Regards

 

Roy

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When I referred to quality, I was talking about "reliability" specifically as far as the gears are concerned. As the prices of locos creep ever upwards, I'd have expected more attention to be given to these issues—to which Bachmann/Farish seem particularly prone. As far as I'm aware current Minitrix diesels (e.g. the SNCF BB64000 series) have metal gears. They are more expensive (£157 against £123 for new production diesels of similar size) but AFAIK are made in Europe rather than China.

 

I wonder if Liliput N gauge models have better quality gears—the German class 56 2-8-0 costs €300 so ought to have!

 

To be fair I've had no problems so far with the latest models from Farish (since 2011) but I've had a lot of problems with earlier Chinese produced Farish models. By contrast, the only German prototype models I've had gear issues with are Arnold DB V100 diesels—they make a loud clicking noise, but still run in both directions. They are however  30 years old or so at least as the boxes say "made in Western Germany".

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22 hours ago, Davexoc said:

Simple answer is yes.......

 

Dave

 

How much, though? Presumably you know?

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1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

How much, though? Presumably you know?

Not for that particular application, but just look at it like this;

injection moulding tool making say 8 at a time, tooling cost then comparatively small cost to run it many many times over, versus

cutting metal making one at a time, so machine time more than 8 times longer, or 8 machines running the same job?

 

Also brass is no good for gears, whereas bronze is, brass is easy to machine, bronze is much less so. The old Grafar gears were brass which creates a lovely gold paste after a while, so choose your material carefully.

 

Dave

 

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As a loco the J72 is actually LARGER than the forthcoming N Gauge Society Hunslet 0-6-0DH, which has a new type of circuit board auto-sensing DCC vs Analogue, and which includes the chip AND a stay-alive, while also powering a rooftop flashing lamp on some variants.  All this for a price to members which, if you added in the cost of a year's Society membership to that price, is STILL less than the RRP of an analogue 08 or 03 from Farish.

 

That arrangement, however won't be copied by BachFar - blue box syndrome says it wasn't invented by them (similar to Hornby's Red Box Syndrome....).  However if a certain former Bachmann designer can do it for the NGS, it should be perfectly possible for current Bachmann designers to come up with something that not only fits inside a J72 but a good number of other smaller N-gauge locos, too.

 

Just a thought.

Les

 

Edited by Les1952
typo
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6 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

As a loco the J72 is actually LARGER than the forthcoming N Gauge Society Hunslet 0-6-0DH, which has a new type of circuit board auto-sensing DCC vs Analogue, and which includes the chip AND a stay-alive, while also powering a rooftop flashing lamp on some variants.  All this for a price to members which, if you added in the cost of a year's Society membership to that price, is STILL less than the RRP of an analogue 08 or 03 from Farish.

 

That arrangement, however won't be copied by BachFar - blue box syndrome says it wasn't invented by them (similar to Hornby's Red Box Syndrome....).  However if a certain former Bachmann designer can do it for the NGS, it should be perfectly possible for current Bachmann designers to come up with something that not only fits inside a J72 but a good number of other smaller N-gauge locos, too.

 

Just a thought.

Les

 

 

One has to wonder if the departure of the aforementioned former Bachmann designer is a contributing factor to Bachmann facing 'technical difficulties' with the J72.....

 

Tom. 

 

 

Edited by TomE
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