LMS Passenger Tanks in Crimson Lake Livery?

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

Over the years I've seen plenty of models of LMS locos in a fully lined crimson livery; I've also seen some old photos that seem to show locos this way too.  My question is, though, what classes got this livery, and how long did it last?

 

(This all started with a comment about a friend's Bachmann LYR tank.)

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[New Haven Neil]

Fowler 2-6-4T's were maroon, the first few anyway - I'd have to check the relevant work to find out how many.

[Gibbo675]

Hi everyone,

 

Over the years I've seen plenty of models of LMS locos in a fully lined crimson livery; I've also seen some old photos that seem to show locos this way too.  My question is, though, what classes got this livery, and how long did it last?

 

(This all started with a comment about a friend's Bachmann LYR tank.)

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Hi Alex,

 

The set of books you need are, "An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives" by Esery and Jenkinson.

 

Let me know what particular types you are interested in and I'll see what I can do as I have all five volumes. That's a lot of engines to look at even if you only want tank engines.

 

Gibbo.

[Steamport Southport]

I'll get back to you with the full details but applying Crimson Lake on anything apart from the express passenger locomotives was discontinued in 1927. That included the 4P Compounds which even though they were medium powered were classed as express engines. Previously the Midland biased authorities was trying to get as many locomotives as possible painted Crimson.

 

 

LMS Fowler 4P 2-6-4T was the only LMS standard tank design to carry it. Only 2300-2311 and 2314-2316. The rest were lined black as they were being built at the time it was being phased out.

 

I'll dig out the other books which have details of the pre grouping LMS tank locomotives to carry crimson.

 

What I've found so far.

 

MR 0-4-4Ts and well tanks, MR Flatiron 0-6-4T,

LNWR 2-4-2Ts, LNWR Watford Tank 0-6-2T,

L&YR 2-4-2Ts,

CR 0-4-4Ts, CR 4-4-0Ts, CR Pickersgill 944 4-6-2Ts,

GSWR 0-4-4Ts, GSWR 4-6-4Ts,

Highland 4-4-0Ts and 0-4-4Ts, Drummond 0-6-4Ts, 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 3, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[pH]

I'll dig out the other books which have details of the pre grouping LMS tank locomotives to carry crimson.

 

Off the top of my head.

 

MR 0-4-4Ts and well tanks, MR Flatiron 0-6-4T, LNWR 2-4-2Ts, LNWR Watford Tank 0-6-2T, L&YR 2-4-2Ts, CR 0-4-4Ts.

 

 

Jason

Plus many ex-Caledonian, ex-G&SWR and ex-Highland passenger tank engines. (See volume 3 of "An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives" referred to by Gibbo675 above.)

[Steamport Southport]

It's alright I was digging through it at the time. Can't find the L&Y and LNWR volumes though. Must be somewhere around....

 

 

 

Jason

[Alex TM]

Good morning everyone,

 

Thanks for all of this.

 

Livery Comments:

I had no idea that it could be quite as many locomotive classes as you are all suggesting.  The cut-off date for the colour in interesting too; was this for economic reasons (assuming the maroon/crimson livery was more expensive).  As in the OP it would be interesting to know when the last locos would have seen repaints into black.

 

Books:

Thanks for the book references.  I will be in a couple of places over the coming week where I may find these.

 

Specific Classes:

I think my interest, at the moment, is being driven by what is, or has recently been, available rtr in 00; i.e. LYR 2-4-2T, Fowler 2-6-4T.

 

Again, thanks for the information and pointers to resources.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Usual timescale for wholesale overhaul and repainting of a steam loco would usually be about 8 years. So, presumably, no crimson lake tank locos after 1935 or thereabouts.

 

Maybe the odd exception for one of the smaller locos that was accumulating low mileage on a branchline somewhere.

[uax6]

I would recommend a copy of 'Locomotive Liveries of the LMS' by Jenkinson and Essery, all you will need to know it there...

 

Andy G

[Steamport Southport]

Another book worth buying and is usually found very cheap.

 

The Big Four in Colour, 1935-50 by David Jenkinson

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 4, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[PenrithBeacon]

After 1928 no LMS tank engine was painted (or re-painted) in crimson lake, all were in black lined or unlined vermillion. Lining was discontinued on all tank engines c1940.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Again, thanks for all the help.  I now have a copy of the first volume in the set by Essery & Jenkinson; hoping to pick up one or two other volumes at the St.Andrews show next week.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[LMS2968]

Policy was the from the start in 1923 ALL locomotives working passenger traffic received the red livery, fully lined out. From 1928, and for economy reasons, only top express types were painted red, all others, and therefore all tankies, were black. The red would take up to ten years in individual cases to disappear, though.

[MarcD]

All of the Furness Railway's passenger tanks appear to have been repainted and photographed as a batch in 1925, out side Barrow shed. These included 4-4-2Ts, and 4-6-4Ts.

 

Marc

[Invicta]

-

I'll get back to you with the full details but applying Crimson Lake on anything apart from the express passenger locomotives was discontinued in 1927. That included the 4P Compounds which even though they were medium powered were classed as express engines. Previously the Midland biased authorities was trying to get as many locomotives as possible painted Crimson.

 

 

LMS Fowler 4P 2-6-4T was the only LMS standard tank design to carry it. Only 2300-2311 and 2314-2316. The rest were lined black as they were being built at the time it was being phased out.

 

I'll dig out the other books which have details of the pre grouping LMS tank locomotives to carry crimson.

 

What I've found so far.

 

MR 0-4-4Ts and well tanks, MR Flatiron 0-6-4T,

LNWR 2-4-2Ts, LNWR Watford Tank 0-6-2T,

L&YR 2-4-2Ts,

CR 0-4-4Ts, CR 4-4-0Ts, CR Pickersgill 944 4-6-2Ts,

GSWR 0-4-4Ts, GSWR 4-6-4Ts,

Highland 4-4-0Ts and 0-4-4Ts, Drummond 0-6-4Ts, 

 

 

Jason

 

A thought occurs about the Fowler 2-6-4Ts- not only would they be the only LMS standard tanks to carry Crimson Lake, but they also had the later version of the livery with 'LMS' lettering on the tankside, and the number on the bunker, rather than the earlier Midland-style version with numbers on the tank and the circular LMS 'coat of arms' (or sometimes small 'LMS' lettering) on the bunker- the introduction of the Fowlers roughly coinciding with both the change in livery style and the end of painting passenger tanks in Crimson Lake.

 

So are they the only LMS tank locos to carry the post-'28 version of Crimson Lake, or did any examples of pre-grouping locos get the later livery as well? Logically there shouldn't be, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen a photo of one, but did any odd examples just happen to be going through works on the cusp of the livery changes and get the full later-style Crimson Lake treatment?

 

Policy was the from the start in 1923 ALL locomotives working passenger traffic received the red livery, fully lined out. From 1928, and for economy reasons, only top express types were painted red, all others, and therefore all tankies, were black. The red would take up to ten years in individual cases to disappear, though.

 

Vol 1 of the Essery and Jenkinson LMS Locomotives book does include the statement that the definition of passenger locomotive was 'often liberally interpreted' in the early days. An example we can add to the list Jason posted earlier in the thread are the big LNWR 0-8-4Ts, which didn't enter service until after Grouping - half-a-dozen of these (7943-9) were delivered in Crimson Lake. Were they ever used in passenger service, or was this just Crewe works exercising their independence...?

Edited August 5, 2018 by Invicta

[LMS2968]

Vol 1 of the Essery and Jenkinson LMS Locomotives book does include the statement that the definition of passenger locomotive was 'often liberally interpreted' in the early days. An example we can add to the list Jason posted earlier in the thread are the big LNWR 0-8-4Ts, which didn't enter service until after Grouping - half-a-dozen of these (7943-9) were delivered in Crimson Lake. Were they ever used in passenger service, or was this just Crewe works exercising their independence...?

The thought of Crewe painting anything in other than black out of choice doesn't bear thinking about! The big 0-8-4Ts were regular, for a while, power on the Manchester London Road - Buxton passenger jobs. This was always a problem line, and had also seen Precursor and Superheater tanks used. The problem was eventually solved with the coming of the 2-6-4Ts, which worked the line for many years.

[88D]

Hi everyone,

 

Over the years I've seen plenty of models of LMS locos in a fully lined crimson livery; I've also seen some old photos that seem to show locos this way too.  My question is, though, what classes got this livery, and how long did it last?

 

(This all started with a comment about a friend's Bachmann LYR tank.)

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

They don’t look right to me, should be black.

[LMS2968]

Many engines didn't 'look right' in red, but at least part of that is because we normally see them in black either as LMS or BR. But that doesn't mean that they weren't, even if only for a short while, red.

[Steamport Southport]

To be honest I bought the L&Y tank in crimson because it was different. I've got loads of black LMS locomotives not so many red ones.

 

I bought the L&YR version with the curved lettering as well. I'm still pondering a BR version as they are reasonably priced at the moment. Might be a bit overkill, but they were a type of locomotive that worked local to me (albeit before I was born).

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

Many engines didn't 'look right' in red, but at least part of that is because we normally see them in black either as LMS or BR. But that doesn't mean that they weren't, even if only for a short while, red.

Well nothing looks sillier than a L&YR 0-4-0 railmotor power unit in the works grey version of the pre-1928 livery.

 

A photo of 10617, appears as such in 'An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives - Volume 2' plate 385.

[Compound2632]

MR 0-4-4Ts and well tanks, MR Flatiron 0-6-4T,

LNWR 2-4-2Ts, LNWR Watford Tank 0-6-2T,

L&YR 2-4-2Ts,

CR 0-4-4Ts, CR 4-4-0Ts, CR Pickersgill 944 4-6-2Ts,

GSWR 0-4-4Ts, GSWR 4-6-4Ts,

Highland 4-4-0Ts and 0-4-4Ts, Drummond 0-6-4Ts, 

 

To which one can add the ex-LTSR 4-4-2Ts and 4-6-4Ts, which were anyway already all red at the grouping.

[Buhar]

The L&Y 4-6-4Ts were turned out in Lake from new.  

[EddieB]

I have photos (b&w of course) of the MR/Deeley "Flatiron" 0-6-4Ts in crimson livery.  I guess many carried this livery to the end of their working lives, as the class was pretty short-lived.

[GDR]

Friend of mine was a short-trousered train spotter in 40s/50s (&still with us!!). Travelled about as a kid cos of his dad's job & saw much. Ask him about liveries & he'll say "Everything was black. Some were reddish black, some greenish black, but black".