S&D Number Suggestion - Bachmann Midland 4F

[SDJR7F88]

Hi there,

I recently acquired a Bachmann Midland 4F (Product Code 31-884), in number 44044, BR Late Weathered. From what I understand 44044 never ran on S&D metals, so want to renumber her to a loco that did. Being a Midland 4F, I understand there are a number of differences between the Midland and Fowler 4F's, so want to make sure I get there right number for a fellow class member (not a Fowler design). 

 

Any numbers recommendations, and information on how to tell the two variants apart in pictures would be much appreciate. 

 

Callum 

[geoffers]

Right hand drive Midland built 4F 0-6-0 (designed by Fowler) numbered 43836 t0 44026

Right hand drive LMS built 4F0-6-0 (same as the MR engines and same designer) numbered 44027 to 44206

Right hand drive S&DJR built 4F 0-6-0 44557 to 44561

Left hand drive LMS-built engines from 44207 to 44606

 

These are some suggested numbers which importantly are all right hand drive which were allocated to either Bath Green Park or Templecombe. I am not sure about the tenders as all Fowler tenders look the same to me but there are some differences as there are with details on individual locos. But if, like me, you can overlook the odd minor difference try these.

43869 May 1949 to Sept 1949

43875 Jan 1948 to Jan 1952

43924 Jul 1962 to Aug 1962

43930 Jan 1949 to Feb 1949

43969 apl 1950 to Jul 1950

44096 Jan 1948 to Aug 1959

44102 Jan 1948 to Sept 1964 (withdrawn)

44135 Mar 1959 to Aug 1959

44146 Jan 1949 to Feb 1960

44167 Nov 1962 to Jan 1964 (withdrawn)

44557 Jan 1948 to Aug 1962

44558 Jan 1948 to Dec 1964 (withdrawn)

44559 Jan 1948 to Jan 1963 (withdrawn)

44560 Jan 1948 to Nov 1964

44561 Jan 1948 to Apl 1962 (withdrawn)

 

There were also quite a few allocated to Gloucester Barnwood and Bristol Barrow Road which may have showed up by being borrowed.

Edited August 9, 2018 by geoffers

[bike2steam]

You forgot the batch of ten (44302 - 11), that Crewe built in 1926, with right-hand drive. No, I don't know why either!!

[Poor Old Bruce]

You forgot the batch of ten (44302 - 11), that Crewe built in 1926, with right-hand drive. No, I don't know why either!!

 

'cos they were built out of sequence. A similar thing happened in later years with the BR/Sulzer type 2s (Class 25s).

 

Back to 4Fs, the Bachmann model has beaded splashers. These changed to plain in mid lot about 4014 if that bothers you.

[bike2steam]

'cos they were built out of sequence. A similar thing happened in later years with the BR/Sulzer type 2s (Class 25s).

 

Back to 4Fs, the Bachmann model has beaded splashers. These changed to plain in mid lot about 4014 if that bothers you.

 

But 4207 - 4301 was 'Lot 29' built(Derby) Dec 1925 - March 1927; 4302 - 4311 was 'Lot 30' built (Crewe) Sepember 1926 - October 1926; 4312 - 4331 'Lot 31' built (St Rollox) November 1927 - March 1928 according to the RCTS book on 'LMS Locomotive Design and Construction'. ???? The Crewe batch were probably using up spares for r/h ??

[geoffers]

".......Back to 4Fs, the Bachmann model has beaded splashers. These changed to plain in mid lot about 4014 if that bothers you....."

One of those details mentioned above. Doesn't bother me . Just glad I can still see stuff as I get older.

[SDJR7F88]

Right hand drive Midland built 4F 0-6-0 (designed by Fowler) numbered 43836 t0 44026

Right hand drive LMS built 4F0-6-0 (same as the MR engines and same designer) numbered 44027 to 44206

Right hand drive S&DJR built 4F 0-6-0 44557 to 44561

Left hand drive LMS-built engines from 44207 to 44606

 

These are some suggested numbers which importantly are all right hand drive which were allocated to either Bath Green Park or Templecombe. I am not sure about the tenders as all Fowler tenders look the same to me but there are some differences as there are with details on individual locos. But if, like me, you can overlook the odd minor difference try these.

43869 May 1949 to Sept 1949

43875 Jan 1948 to Jan 1952

43924 Jul 1962 to Aug 1962

43930 Jan 1949 to Feb 1949

43969 apl 1950 to Jul 1950

44096 Jan 1948 to Aug 1959

44102 Jan 1948 to Sept 1964 (withdrawn)

44135 Mar 1959 to Aug 1959

44146 Jan 1949 to Feb 1960

44167 Nov 1962 to Jan 1964 (withdrawn)

44557 Jan 1948 to Aug 1962

44558 Jan 1948 to Dec 1964 (withdrawn)

44559 Jan 1948 to Jan 1963 (withdrawn)

44560 Jan 1948 to Nov 1964

44561 Jan 1948 to Apl 1962 (withdrawn)

 

There were also quite a few allocated to Gloucester Barnwood and Bristol Barrow Road which may have showed up by being borrowed.

Wow! Thanks ever so much for the info! Got a far few choices then.

Think I might go for 44559, being on the SDJR batch, plus I've seen a few pictures of her in various books and online. 

Now to order some smoke box plates...

[geoffers]

For what it is worth I have got 44102 (often on the Evercreech-Poole goods and shedded at Templecombe for much of the time) and 44559 and 44561. And you are most welcome for the info. Enjoyed looking it up.

[w124bob]

I have also just fettled a Baccy 4F as 44102, pictures were in short supply so it was only after I'd finished the engine that I read it was not fitted with steam . I'd nearly run out of 4's and 5's so couldn't do my first choice 44557. It joins 41242 which appears to have kept the lion on a bicycle herald long after the it's sister Ivatts. I only chose 102 as it lasted to almost the end.

Edited September 7, 2018 by w124bob

[Combe Martin]

A couple of years ago I did a very detailed analysis of which S&D 4Fs could be produced from the current RTR models (both Bachmann and Hornby).  Now, I'm away from home at the moment so havn't got my notes so I'm working from memory. 

 

I worked from photographs of S&D 4Fs to be sure of their condition when in later BR days.  Basically as I remember (and I am working from memory of a few years ago), you cant renumber any RTR 4F into a S&D one accurately unless you also do a number of modifications as well.  The most significant problem is the Fowler tender.  Both Hornby (ex Airfix but now loco drive and much improved body) and Bachmann Fowler tenders have the 'coal door' type tender front (it's a big lump that sticks out forward) rather than the 'coal hole' tender front (which is flat).  Whereas photos show the common S&D 4Fs (LHD 44417 and 44422, and RHD 44102 and Armstrongs 44557-61) all with 'coal hole' tenders (though from the back of my memory somewhere, one of the Armstrongs may have had a very late tender swop, not sure about that).  There is now available an etched brass kit that contains a number of bits including those to make the 'coal hole' tender front.  I think it's a Brassmasters kit.  

 

To make 44417 and 44422 you have to use the Hornby model as they are LHD locos.  I've done both by adding the missing handrails and lamp irons and they 'come up' very well, though I havn't done the tender fronts yet.  The Bachmann model can be used for the RHD loco's but beware, it has beaded splashers and some locos had these replaced with plain ones at some point (44102 may have always had plain splashers) and from memory one of the Armstrongs had a mixture of beaded and plain splashers !.  I think the Bachmann body comes apart so It may be possible to separate the splashers away to make space to file the beading off if your that brave ! 

 

So, it's a minefield !  Always refer to photos for your chosen modelling period.

 

Next time I'm at home I'll try and remember to dig out my notes on all this to update here if necessary. They were used as the background for a suggestion directly to Bachmann for an accurate S&D Armstrong 4F from a well known S&D man who has Bachmann's 'ear'.    

 

As an aside, some of the Bachmann 7Fs also have the wrong Fowler tender.     

Edited October 4, 2018 by Combe Martin

[RobAllen]

Resurrecting this thread as this was the one that Google found when I was researching and it seems useful to keep the info in one place for the next person who needs information about the LMS days.

 

All 5 S&D 4Fs (57-61) were given LMS numbers by adding 45 to each one to become 4557-4561. I can only find photos of two of them in LMS livery, though clearly all 5 must have had it:

• 4557 - February 1938 - Picture 29 in Bournemouth to Evercreech Junction by Mitchell & Smith
• 4558 - 1936 - Page 47 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway by Phillips

Looking through the books I have here, other 4Fs in LMS livery were photographed on the line:

• 3835 - July 1946 - Page 24 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Arlett & Lockett
• 3875 - August 1946 - Page 26 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Arlett & Lockett
• 4046 - August 1936 - Page 18 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Arlett & Lockett
• 4168 - May 1929 - Page 47 in Radstock Coal & Steam by Handley
• 4169 - 1948? - Page 91 in Legends of the Somerset & Dorset Railway by Hammond
• 4274 - 1936 - Page 52 in The Somerset & Dorset at Midford by Arlett
• 4417 - May 1947 - page 29 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Arlett & Lockett
• 4523 - May 1947 - Page 30 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Arlett & Lockett

3835, 3875. 4046, 4168, 4169 were right hand drive
4274, 4417 and 4523 were left hand drive.

The Bachman 31-880 is LMS liveried number 3851 with the Deeley tender. The pictures of all the RHD locos appear to have the same tender, so it feels pretty safe to renumber it to any of them, including all the S&D Armstrongs if you're in the LMS era. I imagine that there are detail differences though.

Interestingly Bachman 31-881 is BR early emblem 43875 with a Deeley tender, which is one of the photos listed above, so could plausibly be used as-is on an S&D layout set in the early BR period as it was shedded at Bath Green Park in 1948.  Such a shame that Bachmann didn't use 3875 for the LMS one too!

Edited November 20, 2023 by RobAllen
LND/RHD confusion on my part!

[Combe Martin]

On 14/11/2023 at 13:08, RobAllen said:

• 4274, 4417 and 4523 were right hand drive.

 

4417 (44417 in BR days) was a left hand drive loco.   

[RobAllen]

4 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

4417 (44417 in BR days) was a left hand drive loco.   

Doh! I got it around the wrong way. Fixing in my post.