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Ardglen

Bournemouth Belle

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Hi all,

Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere in the group but I am looking for guidance on what Hornby Pullman coaches/packs are suitable to make up a 1960's Bournemouth Belle consist.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Andrew

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Hi all,

Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere in the group but I am looking for guidance on what Hornby Pullman coaches/packs are suitable to make up a 1960's Bournemouth Belle consist.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Andrew

Depending on the exact date there might still have been a preponderance of twelve wheelers ..... I think there are 'Belle' lists in http://www.crecy.co.uk/pullman-profile-no.1?osCsid=bf33a107843ce9f3d43ecd9ff4ec7bb0 - if not, in Volume 2.

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The formation for the final run of the Bournemouth Belle in 1967 was as follows and is probably fairly representative of the 1960s once the paneled stock had been withdrawn.

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/bournemouth_belle.htm

 

The stock is mostly 1928 stock (Hornby K-types are suitable I think) with a Mk1 full brake at each end. For a lot of the 60s, these full brakes were "borrowed" chocolate and cream Mk1s from the Western Region as these were considered a fair match for Pullman cream and umber (according to legend, Paddington was most miffed at receiving a pair of tatty maroon Mk1s in return).

 

BR Mk 1 Full Brake

Parlour Car

Kitchen Car

Parlour Car

First Class Parlour Car

First Class Kitchen Car

First Class Parlour Car

First Class Kitchen Car

Parlour Car

Second Class Parlour Car

BR Mk 1 Full Brake

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Here is a shot of the Belle in 1965 showing one of borrowed WR brakes.

 

Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg

 

In other years, green, maroon, blue/grey or even no Mk1 brakes could be seen so there is some justification for mixing things up a little. But the majority of the stock being 1928 stock in the 1960s seems to be borne out by photos.

 

mm_34087_bb.jpg

the-bournemouth-belle-pullman-service-de

87dd55b05ff5938e36072b8bb7ddfdb6.jpg

3368876180_69d375f960_b.jpg

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Thanks to everyone for their replies, lots of information to digest.

 

I've been inspired by Nigel Kendall's "Rails Around Bournemouth" facebook page; it looks like it will be the K-types for the mid 60's period I'm interested in.

 

I'm now trying to work out what models are available (and appropriate).

 

Regards

 

Andrew

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The very first Hornby lighted Pullman Train Pack R2300 Bournemouth Belle with 35021 got it very nearly right for late crest early 1960s period :

Rosemary (1P), Car 62( 2B), Car 169 (2K), with the accompanying Pullman Car Pack R4169 containing: Fingall (1K), Car 63 (2B) and Car 66 (2P) - all wooden 8-wheel K class Pullmans.  Slight quibble with the position of the oval windows on Cars 62 & 63, otherwise excellent.

 

You can still find these Hornby sets in near mint condition on eBay from time to time.

This rake could be extended with other late crest wooden K class Pullmans from the Hornby range: Onyx, Octavia, Sappho (R4145A), Cars 58 (R4741), 61 (R4486), 65 (R4482), among others, all noted on the Bournemouth Belle in the '60-61 period.

 

Later in the 1960s the wooden Bournemouth Belle Pullmans were mostly replaced by all-steel K class Pullmans (also modelled by Hornby).  So for 1962 onwards you could have: Agatha (R4664), Joan (R4696), Eunice, Evadne, Loraine( R4663), Lucille, Thelma, Ursula (R4697) and Cars 75, 76, 83 (R4694) ,all noted on the Bournemouth Belle with others from this range, but still using the wooden Brakes from the earlier period.

 

With both these Pullman types you may want to consider changing some to a late crest where necessary and repainting roof colour to match, if these things bother you.

 

The Bournemouth Belle Train Pack R2819 with 70009 and accompanying Coach Pack R4381 contains 12-wheeler Pullmans mostly used on the train in the 1950s,

 

Overall, Bournemouth Belle fans are spoiled for choice! (You can even make a reasonable attempt using Railroad Pullmans, but if you don't mind I'll look away now...)

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There's a lot of useful information here, would anyone here mind if I asked the opposite question - What Hornby Pullmans would be suitable for pre 1950's?

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There's a lot of useful information here, would anyone here mind if I asked the opposite question - What Hornby Pullmans would be suitable for pre 1950's?

 

Pre 1950s ( I assume you mean from 1946 post-war to 1949) you need matchboard-sided Pullmans with early crest, mainly 12-wheelers.

 

The Hornby Bournemouth Belle set R2819 and coach pack R4381, athough containing Britannia "Alfred the Great" from the early 1950s, is useful here as many Pullmans ran from the first post-war run in 1946 through the 1950s until replacement around 1960..

 

Among those are: Car No. 94 and Car No. 96 from the train pack and First Class Car Sunbeam, Car No.45 and Car No. 95 from the coach pack - all 12-wheelers.

In fact the whole of these packs would not be wrong, apart from the loco, even if they did not necessarily run together pre-1950.

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There's a lot of useful information here, would anyone here mind if I asked the opposite question - What Hornby Pullmans would be suitable for pre 1950's?

Hello Jack

 

Further to Forester's posting the Appendix to the CWN for 26 September 1949 ufn gives the following formation of the Belle leaving Waterloo:-

 

P = Parlour car / K = Kitchen car

 

41             3rd brake 

97             3rd P

Rosalind   1st K  

Glencoe    1st P

Hibernia    1st K 

Sunbeam  1st P

98              3rd P

19              3rd K

  7              3rd K

47              3rd K

94              3rd brake

 

All 12 wheeled cars.  Sunbeam and 98 were included on Fridays, Sats and Suns, and on other days 'as required'.

 

I might have 1947 details somewhere - if I find them I will post!

 

Chris KT

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Hello Jack

 

Further to Forester's posting the Appendix to the CWN for 26 September 1949 ufn gives the following formation of the Belle leaving Waterloo:-

 

P = Parlour car / K = Kitchen car

 

41             3rd brake 

97             3rd P

Rosalind   1st K  

Glencoe    1st P

Hibernia    1st K 

Sunbeam  1st P

98              3rd P

19              3rd K

  7              3rd K

47              3rd K

94              3rd brake

 

All 12 wheeled cars.  Sunbeam and 98 were included on Fridays, Sats and Suns, and on other days 'as required'.

 

I might have 1947 details somewhere - if I find them I will post!

 

Chris KT

That's a pretty heavy train for the Southern so there'd probably be a ( malachite green ? ) M7 on the back giving it plenty of welly as far as the platform end !

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That's a pretty heavy train for the Southern so there'd probably be a ( malachite green ? ) M7 on the back giving it plenty of welly as far as the platform end !

I've now found the ACWN for 16 June 1947 ufn and the following cars were allocated to the Bournemouth Belle:-

 

1st Kitchens:  Ibis, Lydia & Philomel

1st Parlour:    Rosemary

3rd Kitchen:   17 & 19

3rd Brake:      94 & 95

3rd Parlour:    96, 97, 98 & 99

 

Leaving Waterloo the formation was:-

 

3rd Brake

3rd K

1st K

1st P

1st K

1st K #

3rd P #

3rd P 

3rd K

3rd P

3rd K

3rd Brake

 

Specific identities are not given.  the two cars , # above, "Will be withdrawn when Belle runs formed of 10 Cars."

 

All the 3rd class cars above were 12 wheelers but I'm surprised to see that all four 1sts were 8 wheelers.  I suppose at the time the Pullman Co. was catching up with maintenance arrears following WW2.

 

Curiosity aroused I looked back to 2 July 1939.  Then, apart from the 12 wheeled 3rd Brakes, all the other 10 cars were all 8 wheelers.  It ran as 12 cars at weekends but only 8 cars Mon-Fri.

 

Chris KT

 

Chris KT

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Further to Forester's posting the Appendix to the CWN for 26 September 1949 ufn gives the following formation of the Belle leaving Waterloo:-

 

P = Parlour car / K = Kitchen car

 

41             3rd brake 

97             3rd P

Rosalind   1st K  

Glencoe    1st P

Hibernia    1st K 

Sunbeam  1st P

98              3rd P

19              3rd K

  7              3rd K

47              3rd K

94              3rd brake

 

All 12 wheeled cars.  Sunbeam and 98 were included on Fridays, Sats and Suns, and on other days 'as required'.

Chris KT

 

Unusually for a Pullman train the Bournemouth Belle was mainly Third Class.

Cars 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 and 99 were specially converted from First to Third Class for it.

 

From Chris's list:

As single cars Hornby did Car No 98 as R4385 and Car No 97 as R4475. Also Car No 95 is available separately as Hornby R4477.

Hornby have not done any more 12-wheelers for some time, sadly.

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I am intrigued by the last Bournemouth Belle working on 9th July 1967, with clas 47  D1924. It has headcode ..95.

I have so far been unable to find what that code was. By 1981 it appears it indicated Waterloo to Southampton Eastern Docks !

Does any body know what 95 meant from 10th July 1967?

Ian Osborne

 

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Posted (edited)

FWIW - these are the various Pullman coaches I noted on the Belle  from October 1965 through to July 1967 on spotting trips to Bournemouth Central. Taken from Ian Allen Combined Volume. 

 

K = Kitchen Car, B = Brake, P = Parlour Car

 

First Class - Aquila (K), Garnet (P), Hawk (K), Heron (K), Joan (P), Loraine (K), Lucille (P), Lydia (K), Octavia (K), Phyllis (K), Sheila (P), Topaz (P), Ursula (P).

 

Composite First and Second Class - Ethel (K).

 

Second Class - Cars Nos 33 (K), 34 (P), 36 (B), 61 (K), 62 (B), 63 (B), 64 (P), 65 (B), 75 (P), 76 (P), 83 (P), 303 (K), 334 (K), 337 (K), 338 (K), 344 (K), 347 (P), 348 (P), 351 (P).

 

Edited by geoffers
layout.

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On 24/03/2020 at 04:55, Ian Osborne said:

I am intrigued by the last Bournemouth Belle working on 9th July 1967, with clas 47  D1924. It has headcode ..95.

I have so far been unable to find what that code was. By 1981 it appears it indicated Waterloo to Southampton Eastern Docks !

Does any body know what 95 meant from 10th July 1967?

Ian Osborne

 

 

95 was Waterloo or Nine Elms and Bournemouth. This code was introduced 6 March 67.

 

 

Rob

 

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