Pre-Grouping West Highland?

[justin1985]

I've just finished reading Hamilton-Ellis's history of the North British (picked up cheaply, bizarrely with Seattle Public Library marks). I hadn't realised that the NBR built dedicated slightly smaller 4-4-0s, and dedicated coaches with "picture windows". Although the illustrations in Hamilton-Ellis's book are a bit ropey, it makes a very attractive train!

 

I haven't had much luck trying to find other images online, and it made me realise I'd never seen the West Highland modelled in Pre-Grouping guise (or even, I think, LNER).

 

Come to think about it, Burntisland 1883 is the only pre-group NBR layout I recall seeing at exhibitions.

 

Are there any layouts out there? Or good Pre-Grouping albums covering the NBR?

 

(Must resist dividing my modelling interests even more ...)

 

Justin

[Compound2632]

The West Highland in its earliest years would make a very attractive subject, with those bronze-green Holmes West Highland bogies and Class C 0-6-0s. One of my earliest railway books was David Thomas' The West Highland Railway (David & Charles) - contains more description and dimensions of the saloon carriages, along with a couple of not so clear photos of them in trains. The various publications of the North British Railway Study Group may reveal more. Plus of course through carriages from Kings Cross - including an enormous ECJS 12-wheel clerestory sleeping carriage - and from St Pancras.

 

David Thomas* also wrote a general history of the North British which I read many years ago - rather more thorough than Hamilton Ellis - but his masterpiece was The Springburn Story. Both also published by David & Charles in the late 60s.

 

*Not to be confused with David St. John Thomas, the David of David & Charles, who wrote mostly on the railways of the other end of the island of Britain.

[PeterR]

The West Highland and its extension (Fort William to Mallaig) were built to relieve the devastation of the Highland Clearances,.with Government cash.

 

The best general book is the David & Charles book by John Thomas, for historical facts look for 'Mountain Moor & Loch , again by D&C - this is a reprint (from 1895!) of the NBR  descriptive book for the line - lots of engravings and a lot of details in its 178 pages.

 

New books, by Amberley, are the 'New Railway' and 'West Highland extension'  both being photo books.

 

All northbound railway companies sent sleepers but soon the (always looking to save money)  NBR  made the service one sleeper per day in winter.

 

The WHR had its own special rolling stock, but the first ones had to be modified - superb wide windows - but with sunshine too hot; the best method for coach & wagon drawings is the NBRSG, who have 3 books of drawings of loco's, coaches and wagons..

 

Finally the 'Jacobite' is o the extension route, and the route from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Fort William , and from London there is still the sleeper!, that now is 16 coaches long, though is splits down to a lot of destinations in Scotland, and is having new coaches.delivered soon.

 

The loco colour is most unusual have a look at the preserved one at    'http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/images/90001/90001.jpg' and it is said that it varied a lot! 

 

Coaches are maroon.

Edited August 13, 2018 by PeterR

[Compound2632]

As far as I've been able to establish* there was never a Midland sleeper to Fort William and/or Mallaig, only a through carriage from St Pancras - a M&NB corridor composite. That ran to Fort William throughout the period up to the Great War but to Mallaig only in the first year of the extension. Also, I'm fairly sure there was never a through carriage from Euston (that was Oban's privilige) but can't find my copy of the David Thomas book right now to be absolutely certain. It was the Highland Railway that rebelled against hauling three empty sleeping cars over its main line between Perth and Inverness.

 

*From study of Midland London-Scotland carriage marshalling books for 1902, 1910, 1914 and 1915 in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre, and also from early photos of Fort William and the Mallaig line.

[justin1985]

Many thanks for all of the suggestions!

 

The West Highland in its earliest years would make a very attractive subject, with those bronze-green Holmes West Highland bogies and Class C 0-6-0s.

 

 

It really, would, wouldn't it! I'm a bit surprised no one has tried this before. Must resist ...

 

 

The best general book is the David & Charles book by John Thomas, for historical facts look for 'Mountain Moor & Loch , again by D&C - this is a reprint (from 1895!) of the NBR  descriptive book for the line - lots of engravings and a lot of details in its 178 pages.

I've just ordered a copy of the John Thomas book. And I just realised I already have a copy of "Mountain, Moor and Loch", but titled as "Victorian Travel on the West Highland Line", I think it came from a gift shop when I last visited Fort William.

 

Are there any other NBR layouts out there?

 

Justin

[Dunalastair]

On 13/08/2018 at 17:35, justin1985 said:

 

I've just finished reading Hamilton-Ellis's history of the North British (picked up cheaply, bizarrely with Seattle Public Library marks). I hadn't realised that the NBR built dedicated slightly smaller 4-4-0s, and dedicated coaches with "picture windows". Although the illustrations in Hamilton-Ellis's book are a bit ropey, it makes a very attractive train!

 

I haven't had much luck trying to find other images online, and it made me realise I'd never seen the West Highland modelled in Pre-Grouping guise (or even, I think, LNER).

 

 

Reviving another old WHR thread, I have been playing with pushing my long-in-the-tooth 1966 WHR N gauge layout back into the early days with some static models. Inspired by those 'West Highland saloons' on the cover of the John Thomas book (I have a well-thumbed PAN edition), I did a little more reading. The NBR Study group has some details on the three diagrams (first, third and brake-compo). They only lasted on the WHR until about 1912, long enough to see the NBR Intermediates, but not the Glens. NBR vol 2 has a good official photo of the first class saloon. So I hacked together a very simplified 1:148 design in 123D, both 1st and 3rd class variants, together with a four-wheel van which appears in an early photograph - I have not found a clear photograph of the brake compo, never mind a drawing. 

 

So here are a couple of initial print assemblies from my filament printer - at this scale resin would be much better. They are sitting at my version of Banavie station, which normally sees BRMW and NBL type 2s with maroon Mk1s and a few Gresley and Thomson coach prints. It looks as if the NBR coach colour was not so very different.

 

 

 

I was trying to print the third class variant when my Monoprice MP10 printer failed, apparently with an end-of-travel switch issue. Getting this sorted is not proving easy, sadly. I had got as far as roughing out a design for a much simplified static NBR 'Intermediate', but that will have to stay in screen-only form for now. Which will help postpone the question of loco colour ...

 

The layout is not about to go 100% pre-grouping, but it would be nice to be able to pose a 'ghost train' from the early days if / as I make progress tidying up the rather crude modelling.

[Dunalastair]

 

This is the c1900 image of the train at Fort William I was thinking of and used to base my four wheel brake on. Note the flat roof profile of early NBR carriage stock. Note also the crossover in the bay platforms, removed in the mid 20th century (though apparently seldom used in practice in later days as station pilots generally released locos). 

https://westhighlandline.org.uk/fort-william/2/

[Dunalastair]

And in the unlikely event that anybody interested in the West Highland has not got a copy on their bookshelves, here is an enlargement of the image on the dustcover of the hardback edition of the John Thomas book, taken from the Amazon site (other booksellers are available). Holmes West Highland bogie and West Highland saloons.

 

 

Though pretty, the Bogies were not regarded as a success on the WHR, and were transferred away to more mundane duties elsewhere when the Holmes / Reid Intermediates (with side-window cabs) became available. But apparently even the earlier larger-wheel Drummond 4-4-0s (ancestors of the better known CR 4-4-0s) were drafted to the line in the summer, and made a reasonable showing. 

 

I have started to put some paint on the two vehicles which I have managed to print.

Edited February 14 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

Do we know what colour NBR coach ends were?

 

I initially interpreted the painting on the PAN edition cover as showing grey-blue ends, but https://igg.org.uk/rail/00-app2/lner/nbr.htm suggests black ends - which on reflection would be another possible interpretation of the painting. It also says "maroon very similar to the Midland Railway colour", which is useful considering the paint I have to hand. 

 

https://www.lner.info/co/NBR/livery.php#:~:text=Coaching Stock,crimson over a brown undercoat. suggests crimson lake for coaches, but with vermilion (red?) for brake ends (presumably both ends of my four wheel brake).

 

This comes from the North British Study Group, a prototype from the 1870s, so rather before the West Highland saloons.

 

https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/nbr/carriages.php

 

An image at https://www.mediastorehouse.co.uk/mary-evans-prints-online/north-british-carriage-603711.html of a carriage from 1910 also seems to have black ends.

 

So, black on the saloon and red on the brake?

Edited February 14 by Dunalastair

[Caley Jim]

The CR certainly had red on the brake ends of carriages where the guard's compartment was at the end, including PBVs.  I don't think there is yet a consensus on whether those with the guard's compartment in the middle of the coach, e.g. brake composites, had red ends.

 

Jim

[Dunalastair]

On 14/02/2024 at 19:03, Caley Jim said:

The CR certainly had red on the brake ends of carriages where the guard's compartment was at the end, including PBVs.  I don't think there is yet a consensus on whether those with the guard's compartment in the middle of the coach, e.g. brake composites, had red ends.

 

Thankyou - useful feedback. It sounds as if more than one Scottish company seems to have been following that convention. I have duly painted my brake ends red. 

 

My printer investigations continue, and sadly the initial diagnosis of a failed end limit switch (which would have been relatively easy to fix) does not seem to fit the symptoms. Swapping switches does not seem to help. 

 

So my playing with a MUCH simplified version of a NBR Intermediate suitable for running with the West Highland saloons and matching brake is for now a purely screen exercise. Remember that this is intended for printing a simple static model at 1:148. Even the single representative coal rail on the tender might be rather optimistic from a print resolution perspective. Here is the current position, looking more like a train simulation screenshot than a model, and still work-in-progress.

 

 

I have been learning about the different generations of the NBR K Class. The NB tended to group locos where the LNER later had separate classes. The Glens were a later development of the Intermediates, and of course we still have one of those.

[Dunalastair]

A little bit of colour on the simplified and static West Highland saloon prints. It has taken several coats of Precision Paints maroon to get to this stage. All very crude, but for 1:148 I would like to think that it gives an impression of how it might have been 120 years ago at Banavie, which I think was the original intention of this thread. Is @justin1985 still around to comment?

 

 

The roof was a separate part on the saloon, but not on the brake van. Putting the two vehicles together makes it apparent that the 'roof colour' needs to come further down on the brake to match the saloon. The lighting does not really pick out the red end on the brake, but I know that it is there. 

 

In good news (I hope), after three days of trouble shooting on the 3D printer, it is now working again, albeit having lost its auto-levelling function. By disconnecting the sensor block, the controller is now happy enough to move and print. So much for all the angst about limit switches. The less good news is that the spare part is apparently not available. Since I cannot shift the screws which locate it, this might be less of an issue than it appears. I will have to see if I can live without the levelling ... If so, then there is another saloon design file ready to print, probably tomorrow afternoon. 

[Dunalastair]

So here are the somewhat ghostly 'as printed' representations of the NBR Intermediate and the third class West Highland saloon, still minus buffer beams. The latter has shorter compartments and a different number of windows in the saloon. The prints have since been cleaned up a little (mainly removing remnants of the printing 'brim') and have seen a paintbrush. Tamiya Olive Green is standing in for the earlier version of NBR (Stroudly-inspired) green. 

 

 

Talking of ghosts, the Ghost of Christmas Future seems to be making an appearance in the distance in the form of a 'Birmingham Sulzer'. But this is supposed to be pre-grouping and indeed before the calamity of WW1 killed so many from Highland regiments and half a century before dieselisation. Though that signal really should be of lattice construction ... and the signalman has been a little quick in dropping it to 'danger'. I just hope that he does not start to open the swing bridge before the van has crossed. 

Edited February 19 by Dunalastair

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Dunalastair said:

 ... and the signalman has been a little quick in dropping it to 'danger'. 

Surely that should be '...raising it to danger.', as it would be lower quadrant? 🤔

 

Jim

[Dunalastair]

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

Surely that should be '...raising it to danger.', as it would be lower quadrant? 🤔

 

Jim

 

Well, yes it should, but as well as not being lattice that particular post is, I think, upper quadrant. It is a mainly white metal signal dating back to the 1970s, and my N gauge model of Dunblane station, the junction for the C&OR. I was a teenager living in the town (actually a City and Royal Burgh according to the signs at the time, due to the cathedral) at the time. Possibly an early Langley product? Many of the signals at the Fort were changed to upper quadrant I think in the fifties, which is the period for the layout but not for this train. I have printed some much simplified lattice posts for elsewhere on the layout, especially the distinctive two 'tridents'. 

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/32176/

 

Edit : the Am Baile postcard caption suggests 1930s, but that looks more like NBR livery on the loco and carriages.

Edited February 19 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

And after a little searching, a photo of the signal as it was in 1914. Does indeed look lower quadrant then.

 

https://signalbox.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/banavieswbdgeJPR.jpg

 

from

 

https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-british-railway/banavie-swing-bridge/

 

Nice image - I don't remember seeing this one when I was first planning the station model, so worth the search.

Edited February 19 by Dunalastair

[Caley Jim]

It would certainly be UQ by 1964.  BTW, I get a '403 Forbidden!' response from that first link!

 

Jim

[Dunalastair]

Yes, I found it odd to find LQ signals in England when I first went south. My experience in Scotland till then had classified LQ as belonging in museums. The link still works for me - but it might be retrieving from cache. The second link should include the image if you can connect to that. 

 

I have been playing with adapting the 4-4-0 design to represent an 0-6-0, in the course of which I realise they were more different than I thought - for instance the tender wheelbase seems to have been shorter. 

 

The characteristic train on the WHR / Extension was the fish train. I have tended to think of these as van trains, and indeed the NBR apparently had some characteristic passenger rated six wheel perishable good vans. However, in the early days, the Scottish railways seemed to have used passenger rated (often dual fitted) open wagons for fish boxes packed in ice. In 4mm scale, NBR 4mm Developments make a kit (https://www.nbr4mm.co.uk/wagonkits/9100.php) in the larger scale. This includes a useful history of the wagons and this drawing.   

I do have a rake of old Farish NE fish vans dating back to the seventies (almost as old as the wagons were when modelled) but if I want to go back pre-WW1 then it looks as if I will need to print some 2mm scale open fish wagons. I'll also have to think about an appropriate NBR goods brake if I am to run a fish train, as opposed to adding fish wagons to a passenger train.

Edited February 20 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

Now this is not going to stand up to close scrutiny, and is something of a Frankenstein's monster of a C Class, but given the limited resolution of the filament printer at 1:148, it will hopefully do the job. The proof of the pudding will come in the printing ...

I remember when still in short trousers wanting a GEM NBR kit, but I moved on to N gauge before that was a realistic possibility. Those early Ian Futers layouts made an impression at the time. At least 3D printing consumes less pocket money.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Dunalastair said:

The characteristic train on the WHR / Extension was the fish train. 

A fellow 2MM SA member in our Area Group is building a model of Glenfinnan in 2FS and is in the process of assembling a lengthy train of Foxhunter LNER fish van kits.

 

1 hour ago, Dunalastair said:

However, in the early days, the Scottish railways seemed to have used passenger rated (often dual fitted) open wagons for fish boxes packed in ice. In 4mm scale, NBR 4mm Developments make a kit (https://www.nbr4mm.co.uk/wagonkits/9100.php) in the larger scale. This includes a useful history of the wagons and this drawing.   

Yes, the CR had similar fish trucks which were Dia. 15 dropside wagons whose underframes had been ungraded to passenger train standards.

 

Jim

[Dunalastair]

18 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

A fellow 2MM SA member in our Area Group is building a model of Glenfinnan in 2FS and is in the process of assembling a lengthy train of Foxhunter LNER fish van kits.

 

Yes, the CR had similar fish trucks which were Dia. 15 dropside wagons whose underframes had been ungraded to passenger train standards.

 

Jim

 

Do we know whether such wagons would have been sheeted in traffic? I cannot immediately see hooks for this. If they were not sheeted, then would the empty boxes have been shipped back on the return trains? Presumably the boxes had a value and the trains were otherwise running empty. If so, then that would suggest that trains would look similar both ways, though the Billingsgate-bound wagons would presumably be iced. I think that I remember stories of the difficulty passenger trains found following fish trains which had coated the rails in slippery icy fish scales.

 

I'm playing with a very crude 3D design and wondering whether to represent fish boxes ...

 

Edit : https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/416-fish-traffic talks about different generations of fish wagon / van and suggests that fish might have been carried in tanks of water rather than in iced boxes. Photographs are of similar NER wagons.

Edited February 21 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

On 13/08/2018 at 17:35, justin1985 said:

I've just finished reading Hamilton-Ellis's history of the North British (picked up cheaply, bizarrely with Seattle Public Library marks). I hadn't realised that the NBR built dedicated slightly smaller 4-4-0s, and dedicated coaches with "picture windows". Although the illustrations in Hamilton-Ellis's book are a bit ropey, it makes a very attractive train!

 

Hearking back to the OP, I have just realised that the Hamilton Ellis book originally referred to has a dustjacket cover which seems to show one of the WH Saloon brake coaches, the first time I have seen any kind of an image of this design. Always accepting the errors which arise in interpreting a painting, and if this is not just another NBR carriage, this has several interesting features:

• The guards ducket is in the middle of the coach, not the end
• There is a coupe compartment at at least one end
• The end is indeed painted red

I can feel another model design coming on ...

 

https://www.stellabooks.com/books/c-hamilton-ellis/the-north-british-railway-908371/2133022

 

I had read of another Hamilton Ellis painting of a double headed NBR train at Banavie. This is clearly not Banavie - is it a real place? I might guess Spean Bridge, given the high mountains in the background. And can anybody point to a Hamilton Ellis Banavie painting?

[eheaps]

1 hour ago, Dunalastair said:

 

Do we know whether such wagons would have been sheeted in traffic? I cannot immediately see hooks for this. If they were not sheeted, then would the empty boxes have been shipped back on the return trains? Presumably the boxes had a value and the trains were otherwise running empty. If so, then that would suggest that trains would look similar both ways, though the Billingsgate-bound wagons would presumably be iced. I think that I remember stories of the difficulty passenger trains found following fish trains which had coated the rails in slippery icy fish scales.

 

The Highland sheeted their fish wagons

 

[Dunalastair]

The generic NBR 0-6-0 has now been printed and is in the paint shop. It has been joined by a simple NBR goods brake for the fish train, if that materialises. A render follows. 

 

 

A design for the WH brake compo is almost ready for the printer. Meanwhile, thoughts continue on those fish wagons, sheeted or otherwise. I have found a long thread, which I have only just started reading :

 

 

 

Edited February 22 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

and that in turn references another thread :

 

 

 

There seems to be a consensus that wet fish would be in ice in wooden boxes, but not on whether they would have been sheeted. Discussion included cured herring in barrels. My great grandfather used to regularly have a barrel of Orkney herring sent down to Galashiels, presumably at least part of the way by rail. Much of the early fishing at Mallaig was I think for seasonal herring. so barrels might also have featured on the Extension.

Edited February 22 by Dunalastair