Ex Metropolitan Railway 8 wheel coaches in France

[Joseph_Pestell]

Simon, I wish you good luck but I cannot see the market size. As an example, the Radley resin Dreadnought kits are relatively easy to assemble, the body comes as a complete moulding. With the success of the Heljan Metro BoBo you would expect to see lots of these around but the impression I get from various threads is that many people who need them won't tackle them.

 

But that is the joy of 3D printing through another producer. No stock to hold so it matters very little how many are sold.

 

That said, I would urge Simon to print up some of his more interesting creations and take them to a select few shows (including in France). I think that would generate a lot of orders.

[rue_d_etropal]

From talking to one well known trader/manufacturer a couple of years ago, he said his kits were now not selling so he was not prepared to get batches done unless he knew he could sell them. The problems with some companies now not producing for various reasons and some retiring and noone taking over range suggests fewer people willing to take the financial risk.

.

Also it is not just 4mm/ft scale, but any scale that 3D printing can do,and printing to order makes it financiallysustainable in these troubled economic times. I have less overheads than traditional manufacturer, so designing something only really costs my time, and I enjoy designing models, as long as I have the drawings to work from. Once a design has been completed, it is done forever, unless something needs to be modified.

 

Sad as it is we are becoming a 'want now' population, and are less prepared to wait. A new r2r model might take a couple of years(if we are lucky) to develop, even a kit takes a long time to develop, but a basic 3D printed model can be ready in a day.  Working with others on a design, can result in something more detailed, but will take a little longer. Often what delays things is getting agreement on what some older prototypes actually looked like. Even some of the best admit that drawings they have donein the past need updating, and there are also some very bad drawings out there. 

 

The one area very badly served by r2r business is pregrouping coaches and railcars, so that is where I started . There are some kit manufacturers, but not every kit is always available,and may or may not be produced again. Also it might not be that easy to ge if you are not based in same country. There are some complex rules(and charges) relating to exporting/importing goods. Some UK kit manufacturers woin't supply customers in the USA  , and no-one can say how that will be in the uture. Wth 3D printing, there are fewer barriers to international trade, and hopefully it won't be long before all 3D printing is done local to the customer.

[Jol Wilkinson]

From talking to one well known trader/manufacturer a couple of years ago, he said his kits were now not selling so he was not prepared to get batches done unless he knew he could sell them. The problems with some companies now not producing for various reasons and some retiring and noone taking over range suggests fewer people willing to take the financial risk.

.

Also it is not just 4mm/ft scale, but any scale that 3D printing can do,and printing to order makes it financiallysustainable in these troubled economic times. I have less overheads than traditional manufacturer, so designing something only really costs my time, and I enjoy designing models, as long as I have the drawings to work from. Once a design has been completed, it is done forever, unless something needs to be modified.

 

Sad as it is we are becoming a 'want now' population, and are less prepared to wait. A new r2r model might take a couple of years(if we are lucky) to develop, even a kit takes a long time to develop, but a basic 3D printed model can be ready in a day.  Working with others on a design, can result in something more detailed, but will take a little longer. Often what delays things is getting agreement on what some older prototypes actually looked like. Even some of the best admit that drawings they have donein the past need updating, and there are also some very bad drawings out there. 

 

The one area very badly served by r2r business is pregrouping coaches and railcars, so that is where I started . There are some kit manufacturers, but not every kit is always available,and may or may not be produced again. Also it might not be that easy to ge if you are not based in same country. There are some complex rules(and charges) relating to exporting/importing goods. Some UK kit manufacturers woin't supply customers in the USA  , and no-one can say how that will be in the uture. Wth 3D printing, there are fewer barriers to international trade, and hopefully it won't be long before all 3D printing is done local to the customer.

Simon,

 

an etched kit doesn't take longer to develop than a RTR model. Although lead times with some etchers has extended, a model requiring one, or at the most, two test etches can be done in less than twelve months.

 

As Jeff Smith said "the impression I get from various threads is that many people who need them won't tackle them". The issue is that large percentage of "modellers" don't want locos or rolling stock unless it comes out of a box RTR and usually at a cost that fits their historical view of a "proper" price. 

 

Quality of finish is often quoted as another reason for not taking the DIY approach, most people believing they can't replicate something near to RTR models and so not even bothering to try. So far I have seen few 3D products that are, for me, to an acceptable surface finish standard and that's before the paint and lining is applied. While 3D printing does appear to offer a way to creating a range of more approachable kits for low volume models, I think not doing anything beyond creating wish lists and partaking in polls will still be most peoples active approach to model making. At least that's judging by the various topics on RMweb. Most "model makers" that I know aren't members, preferring to spend their time building things, usually from traditional kits, because that is what they are used to or the kits are already available or the prototype they are modelling.

 

Jol

 

(who has just embarked upon another LNWR carriage etched kit design)

[PhilJ W]

From talking to one well known trader/manufacturer a couple of years ago, he said his kits were now not selling so he was not prepared to get batches done unless he knew he could sell them. The problems with some companies now not producing for various reasons and some retiring and noone taking over range suggests fewer people willing to take the financial risk.

.

Also it is not just 4mm/ft scale, but any scale that 3D printing can do,and printing to order makes it financiallysustainable in these troubled economic times. I have less overheads than traditional manufacturer, so designing something only really costs my time, and I enjoy designing models, as long as I have the drawings to work from. Once a design has been completed, it is done forever, unless something needs to be modified.

 

Sad as it is we are becoming a 'want now' population, and are less prepared to wait. A new r2r model might take a couple of years(if we are lucky) to develop, even a kit takes a long time to develop, but a basic 3D printed model can be ready in a day.  Working with others on a design, can result in something more detailed, but will take a little longer. Often what delays things is getting agreement on what some older prototypes actually looked like. Even some of the best admit that drawings they have donein the past need updating, and there are also some very bad drawings out there. 

 

The one area very badly served by r2r business is pregrouping coaches and railcars, so that is where I started . There are some kit manufacturers, but not every kit is always available,and may or may not be produced again. Also it might not be that easy to ge if you are not based in same country. There are some complex rules(and charges) relating to exporting/importing goods. Some UK kit manufacturers woin't supply customers in the USA  , and no-one can say how that will be in the uture. Wth 3D printing, there are fewer barriers to international trade, and hopefully it won't be long before all 3D printing is done local to the customer.

 

 

Simon,

 

an etched kit doesn't take longer to develop than a RTR model. Although lead times with some etchers has extended, a model requiring one, or at the most, two test etches can be done in less than twelve months.

 

As Jeff Smith said "the impression I get from various threads is that many people who need them won't tackle them". The issue is that large percentage of "modellers" don't want locos or rolling stock unless it comes out of a box RTR and usually at a cost that fits their historical view of a "proper" price. 

 

Quality of finish is often quoted as another reason for not taking the DIY approach, most people believing they can't replicate something near to RTR models and so not even bothering to try. So far I have seen few 3D products that are, for me, to an acceptable surface finish standard and that's before the paint and lining is applied. While 3D printing does appear to offer a way to creating a range of more approachable kits for low volume models, I think not doing anything beyond creating wish lists and partaking in polls will still be most peoples active approach to model making. At least that's judging by the various topics on RMweb. Most "model makers" that I know aren't members, preferring to spend their time building things, usually from traditional kits, because that is what they are used to or the kits are already available or the prototype they are modelling.

 

Jol

 

(who has just embarked upon another LNWR carriage etched kit design)

I can see the day coming where you can order a 3D print on 'Click and Collect'.

[rue_d_etropal]

 

I can see the day coming where you can order a 3D print on 'Click and Collect'.

This is the way the industry is planning. The big player in the market is actually NASA as 3D printing will be essential for their Mars mission. They have just launched a competition for 3D designed buldings(?). Saw something briefly online.

As a replacemnt for traditional manufacture Shapeways were testing one of the then new HP machines. Have not heard anythin recently, but it is a fast moving industry. One reason I don't ave a 3D printer myself is that they are being developed and upgraded so fast, and they are still not fast enough for my needs.

[Pacific231G]

I have seen several references to ex Metropolitan Railway 8 wheel coaches being sold to a railway in northern France. Somewhere I have seen a photo(society mag?), but can not find any photos online. Have a feeling they lasted into the 50s.

As the Met did modify some before they were sold, I am interested to see what the French ones looked like. I have drawings of the coaches in the book about the Metropolitan Railway, and can work out how some mods were done,  certainly on the ones that ended up on the Isle of Wight, so should be able to do something fr the French ones.

Simon

I've found three photos of various of these coaches on the S.E. Reseau des Landes de Gironde and a drawing for the nine third class coaches Cf-631-639 in a book published by Cabri which I have. I can't post them as they're copyright and they're not the greatest quality but will PM them to you.  

Edited August 17, 2018 by Pacific231G

[rue_d_etropal]

Simon

I've found three photos of various of these coaches on the S.E. Reseau des Labdes de Gironde and a drawing for the nine third class coaches Cf-631-639 in a book published by Cabri which I have. I can't post them as they're copyright and they're not the greatest quality but will PM them to you.  

please do.

[chris p bacon]

I can see the day coming where you can order a 3D print on 'Click and Collect'.

 

 

This is the way the industry is planning. 

 

 

The issue will be with a purchaser who wants to return it.

[PhilJ W]

I can see the day coming where you can order a 3D print on 'Click and Collect'.

 

 

This is the way the industry is planning.

 

 

The issue will be with a purchaser who wants to return it.

Simples, as is most likely the item will be printed on site you just have to inspect the item before taking it away. If a fault/problem is found in most cases it could possibly be corrected and a reprint done straight away. The Essex record office used to do this with photocopies of maps and plans and used to have a pile of 'seconds' available very cheaply. This has stopped however as most people buy an electronic version and print it at home.

[rue_d_etropal]

Print on demand books are now quite common. Even Peter Smith ( of John and Peter Smith) has quite a few published that way.  I have one on some French lines, mainly based on old postcards, but still very useful.

It has been suggested bookshops could offer this type of service, but have not seen any. Then again this has been predicted for 3D printing and has not taken off properly yet. 

 

I think it could work well with magazines, as it does not take long to print off a complete magazine, which could easily be loose bound. Pure digital is not, and will not be to everyone's taste,although useful for quick searches. Interest in printed books has increased since e-books became available.

[Engineer_London]

Some useful references if further research is needed.  Mentions and pictures of the coaches in France crop up in Modern Transport 1963/05/25 and in articles or letters in Underground News April, May, November 2016 and October 2017.  Underground News items also mention similar articles in 'Archive' and 'Backtrack' magazines.

 

I hope I can make an observation on post 17, related to Bogie Stock, without causing upset, please:  I support the point that the currently-available Bogie Stock in 4mm kit or 3D form does not include the steam-era coach configurations.  There is no available item that has the body arrangement for the First Class Bogie Stock coach, either.  This makes it difficult to form not only a steam-hauled train but also any of the electric stock formations [M, N, W, Y] of the Metropolitan that included Bogie Stock coaches.  I don't have the skills to build from scratch so live in hope of obtaining kits for 3-4 Firsts one day, in whatever material is best for quality and getting it to market.

[rue_d_etropal]

The designs for these coaches is not complex, with flat sides and ends. Done some initially for all 4 original types(round top doors).

This is the composite. The chassis may be a bit chunky for some, but it needs to be strong enough, and can be removed if required.Chassis detail is also a questionable area so is an interpretation.

I see no need to fit bogies, but to fit flanged wheels to outer ones and unflanged to inner pair. Length is less than a BR Pacer , so should go round any curves.

 

I may leave the bottom step off the modifed versions(like those that went to Isle of Wight), and for French ones a plain sided version for later years, including the modified all third into a composite. The lamp tops can easily be removed, they don't look like they are on some of the French ones.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The designs for these coaches is not complex, with flat sides and ends. Done some initially for all 4 original types(round top doors).

This is the composite. The chassis may be a bit chunky for some, but it needs to be strong enough, and can be removed if required.Chassis detail is also a questionable area so is an interpretation.

I see no need to fit bogies, but to fit flanged wheels to outer ones and unflanged to inner pair. Length is less than a BR Pacer , so should go round any curves.

 

I may leave the bottom step off the modifed versions(like those that went to Isle of Wight), and for French ones a plain sided version for later years, including the modified all third into a composite. The lamp tops can easily be removed, they don't look like they are on some of the French ones.

 

If you really must use unflanged wheels (a personal phobia for me), then why not put them on the outer axles to give a shorter wheelbase?

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I made a Met rigid 8 wheeler laser cut from paper  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44043-laser-cut-card-and-paper-coach/?hl=%2Baylesbury+%2Blaser the sides were made up from five layers of paper that allowed the glazing to be slid in to pockets in the sizes without using glue, after several years the model still is good and has not warped.

 

The advantage of using paper is you can get scale thickness beading and window reveals.

 

David

[rue_d_etropal]

If you really must use unflanged wheels (a personal phobia for me), then why not put them on the outer axles to give a shorter wheelbase?

Just a suggestion, and would be more visible on outer ones. A bogie would stand out far more, and most people don't have the space to build very large radius curves.

[Pacific231G]

I made a Met rigid 8 wheeler laser cut from paper  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44043-laser-cut-card-and-paper-coach/?hl=%2Baylesbury+%2Blaser the sides were made up from five layers of paper that allowed the glazing to be slid in to pockets in the sizes without using glue, after several years the model still is good and has not warped.

 

The advantage of using paper is you can get scale thickness beading and window reveals.

 

David

Hi David

The images linked to in your post from 2011 seem to have gone walkabout. Could you repost them please as I'd certainly be interested in seeing how these looked.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi David

The images linked to in your post from 2011 seem to have gone walkabout. Could you repost them please as I'd certainly be interested in seeing how these looked.

I have no idea what the images were, but if you scroll down through the thread you can see the model, I still have the artwork and have access to a laser cutter so can run off more if needed.

 

David