Diesels come to Pendon! Form an orderly queue!

[Steamport Southport]

There is, of course, another reason why a modern traction Vale Scene might not be a good idea.  It might lack one or two railway features, like, err, stations .... 

 

Does a model railway need a station?

 

One of the most iconic model railways ever made doesn't have one, Stoke Summit.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGjBa9L2icg

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Denbridge]

What I was pointing at is recognising reality rather then being sad about the situation. Roye England would have been most unlikely to join in on another person's concept of a model railway. That is what typically goes with the calibre of person required...

it worked well enough for Pendon for over 50 years. It IS sad that now it seems people with the necessary skills cant or won't make the commitment.

[stewartingram]

Nice little video of the Madder valley railway working here (on Pendons website). I remember this layout in various model mags back in the 50's / 60's when I was a lad. This and other layouts gave me inspiration. I laid my Lesney OOO push along stuff beside my Tri-ang TT as a narrow gauge line - hardly Pendon stuff - but tons of fun !!

 

https://pendonmuseum.com/about/madder-valley-railway.php

 

This also is interesting. A PDF of MRJ 1994 featuring Madder Valley

 

http://tbmod.com/rm/Madder%20Valley%20MRJ%201994%20dec.pdf

 

A diesel day at Pendon - why not - I occasionally run my Tri-ang Rocket set !!!!

 

Anyway - here's "Lion" at Wigan Wallgate back in 1980 - who dares dare model this  (apart from me !!) ?

 

 

Brit15

Don't let Tony Wright see that pic on his thread - that loco isn't carrying any lamps!

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

Once diesel traction took hold, what types did bring the South Wales eastbound coal traffic? I did have a quick look through my books, but there’s a real lack of early diesel common or garden mainline freight images. I assumed that the 37’s would have taken over, but there’s few pictures of it, I’ve found more pics of 47’s on the long unfitted freights. Some of that I think may be down to the ‘nothing to see here’ approach that a good number of rail photographers took at the end of steam.

 

The normal fare was Brush Type 4s (Class 47) and D10XX on the South wales freights towards the London area.  Hymeks really lacked the brake power, especially for part fitted (or obviously unfitted) trains of coal plus of course there was basically a steady climb all the way from the bottom of the Severn Tunnel all the way to Badminton and again from Little Somerford to Swindon so raw horsepower was also needed.  Generally the EE Type 3s remained rare outside South Wales until work fell off there apart from the brief period of multi'd pairs on passenger work between Paddington and Bristol.  sand by the time they were becoming more available as work declined within South Wales and by then general freight traffic, particularly coal traffic was declining anyway between South Wales and the London area.

 

Oddly c1967 official records of every freight trains operating east of Swindon were supposed to pass through my hands in the shape of the Guard's Journal and where there was no journal I used Control records instead and I never saw any record of an EEType 3 on any freight train on the mainline between Swindon and Didcot.  That changed later as multi pairs appeared on some oil trains out of South Wales.  

I wonder if the operators have ever, after the doors have been closed to the public of an evening just got a Hornby thomas, Annie and Clarabel out for a circuit of the vale for ****s and giggles coz they could!

 

I did just about every showing on the Dartmoor scene on Saturdays, and more than a few Sundays, over several years in the late 1960s (pus a few 'demo' operations of the Madder Valley - such as could be demo'd) and never 'played' trains with anything after the regular showings finished - far too busy leaving fault lists for various people or tickling recalcitrant point motors back into life.  I was no longer involved after BR shifted me to South Wales in 1971 so count vouch for what went on in subsequent years.

[scottishlocos]

All

 

My points were as follows

 

Why are Pendon alienating regulars and steam modellers by having a D&E event

 

Not all D&E modellers will be interested in this event

 

Pendon has been done to death in the modelling mags is this just a way to get even more pages dedicated

 

I didn't say it was crap because it is not my era or or region the modelling is some of the best but perhaps not the absolute best as it is trumpeted in certain quarters/magazines

 

Grantham and The Shap Northern hills layouts of this parish are not my era or region but I would say they are better than anything at Pendon

 

Dave

[Andy Y]

All

My points were as follows

 

And I picked you up on a point you made and asked you for your evidence. So come on then, out with it.

[chris p bacon]

 So come on then, out with it.

 

 

[PMP]

All

My points were as follows

Why are Pendon alienating regulars and steam modellers by having a D&E event

Not all D&E modellers will be interested in this event

Pendon has been done to death in the modelling mags is this just a way to get even more pages dedicated

I didn't say it was crap because it is not my era or or region the modelling is some of the best but perhaps not the absolute best as it is trumpeted in certain quarters/magazines

Grantham and The Shap Northern hills layouts of this parish are not my era or region but I would say they are better than anything at Pendokn

Dave

First point, Pendon aren’t having a D&E event. They’re running a few Diesel hauled trains on one weekend amongst the routine timetable.

What’s a steam modeller? What evidence is there that they’re alienating either ‘regulars’ how do you define one of them? How many are there?, or ‘steam modellers’

Of course not all D&E modellers (definition would help here too) will be interested in this limited display of diesels. Not all 1930’s era modellers are interested in Pendons regular operations. So I don’t understand the point you’re making.

Have you ever visited Pendon? I ask because the quality of the modelling is some, if not the best modelling in 4mm scale across all eras I’ve ever seen.

With no disrespect to either the Shap or Grantham teams they aren’t in the same overall quality as the Pendon display, I’ve seen Grantham four or five times and Shap once so far. Both are excellent but not at the same level as Pendon.

Perhaps you could explain why you feel those two examples are ‘better than anything’ at Pendon, because having seen all three displays (Pendon x 4) that’s a peculiar statement.

[Denbridge]

All

My points were as follows

Why are Pendon alienating regulars and steam modellers by having a D&E event

Not all D&E modellers will be interested in this event

Pendon has been done to death in the modelling mags is this just a way to get even more pages dedicated

I didn't say it was crap because it is not my era or or region the modelling is some of the best but perhaps not the absolute best as it is trumpeted in certain quarters/magazines

Grantham and The Shap Northern hills layouts of this parish are not my era or region but I would say they are better than anything at Pendon

Dave

Grantham and Shap are wonderful models, but better than the superb craftmanship of Pendon? You must be on some serious medication pal

[royaloak]

All

 

My points were as follows

 

Why are Pendon alienating regulars and steam modellers by having a D&E event

 

How are they 'alienating' regulars and steam modellers by having this event on one weekend out of 52 this year!

 

A little perspective wouldnt go amiss!

 

I am a D&E modeller and am seriously considering going to this event,, whether it turns out to be a one of or the first of a regular feature, oh and I have just taken delivery of a Q1 in BR black which isnt a D or an E loco but I still consider myself to be a D&E modeller.

Edited August 21, 2018 by royaloak

[Pacific231G]

I don't really understand this distinction between steam and D&E modellers. If we're trying to be authentic we model an era and run the motive power relevant to that era. I happen to like the appearance and animation of steam locos so choose an era when most locos were steam but I also have a number of diesels contemporary with them and a rather larger number of interesting autorails (diesel, and in one case high speed petrol, railcars). In much of the world steam and electric were contemporary so what does "D&E" cover? There is also of course far more to railways and the modelling of them than the machines doing the pullIng.

[big jim]

I am a D&E modeller and am seriously considering going to this event..........

..........just to see the protest in the car park

 

[Edwardian]

I suddenly realised that this topic reminded me of something ...

[caradoc]

scottishlocos, I also have to ask if you have actually visited Pendon ? For me, the difference between Pendon and most other model railways, including those you mentioned, is that Pendon is a model of a landscape which has trains running through it, whereas the others are model railways with some scenery around them; Certainly in some cases very good scenery, but not on the scale of Pendon.

[St. Simon]

Blimey, if this is the reaction to three transition era diesels, just imagine the reaction to....

 

IEPs, a Class 66 and a Voyager running around.....underneath overhead wires....with colour light signalling....with DCC sound.....     

 

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Blimey, if this is the reaction to three transition era diesels, just imagine the reaction to....

 

IEPs, a Class 66 and a Voyager running around.....underneath overhead wires....with colour light signalling....with DCC sound.....     

 

 

Simon

 

Are you assuming Pendon could get the ohle up quicker than NR and its contractors?   If they go at NR pace I doubt we'd see ohle there for at least four years although some of the masts will probably be erected within the month   

[The Stationmaster]

We could of course look on the positive side - at least we're not talking about 'modern image', er ooops  

[griffgriff]

Please state your evidence for this.

I don’t think Pendon has an anti diesel policy..... but they reflect GWR policy towards diesel traction in the 1930s

 

Griff

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

it worked well enough for Pendon for over 50 years. It IS sad that now it seems people with the necessary skills cant or won't make the commitment.

 Yes I know that you feel sad about this situation. I will give up hinting. Question is what are you personally - and others who share these feelings - going to do about it?

 

I know from direct experience that finding skilled volunteers for all sorts of activities once ably operated on a completely - or nearly so - voluntary basis has become ever more difficult over these past fifty years. There are many contributing reasons, most of which are beyond any power to change. It may well come down to this: those who feel that Pendon must continue will have to put hand in pocket to fund the hire of the necessary skills.

[Phil Parker]

I wonder if part of the loco repair problem is that those with the skills are worried about the reaction from the more vociferous members of the hobby when they touch one of "Saint Guys" chassis. My guess is that the moment this happens, people will appear shouting that the work isn't up to standard, even if it keeps a loco working that would otherwise be in a glass case. As those who saw the BRM DVD* visit to Pendon will know, there are already conflicts between the idea that models should be preserved as an object of interest (the classic museum view) and restored because they were there to build a scene. 

 

The idea of using detailed RTR was mooted and sounds very sensible to me. Most people won't know or care that the model chuffer on display is a detailed RTR example. That saves the Guy Williams models for special showings to groups who really do want to see them working.

 

*The one where we had carefully edited out all the "Down with D&E" signs that were literally everywhere.

[Denbridge]

I wonder if part of the loco repair problem is that those with the skills are worried about the reaction from the more vociferous members of the hobby when they touch one of "Saint Guys" chassis. My guess is that the moment this happens, people will appear shouting that the work isn't up to standard, even if it keeps a loco working that would otherwise be in a glass case. As those who saw the BRM DVD* visit to Pendon will know, there are already conflicts between the idea that models should be preserved as an object of interest (the classic museum view) and restored because they were there to build a scene. 

 

The idea of using detailed RTR was mooted and sounds very sensible to me. Most people won't know or care that the model chuffer on display is a detailed RTR example. That saves the Guy Williams models for special showings to groups who really do want to see them working.

 

*The one where we had carefully edited out all the "Down with D&E" signs that were literally everywhere.

there really is no need nor justification to use childish insults to put down one of the finest modellers ever. Especially since he is no longer able to respond. Though i suspect, having known Guy he would simply shrug and treat it with the contempt it deserves.

[chris p bacon]

there really is no need nor justification to use childish insults to put down one of the finest modellers ever. Especially since he is no longer able to respond. Though i suspect, having known Guy he would simply shrug and treat it with the contempt it deserves.

 

The way I read Phils post is that there are some within the hobby that have given him 'Sainthood' and that to touch the locos he built would be sacrelage, I didn't see an insult to him from Phil but a remedy to a situation when repairs become paramount. If you re-read it he suggests replacing them with detailed RTR to keep them running for longer .

Edited August 23, 2018 by chris p bacon

[bécasse]

I met Guy on a number of occasions, both at Pendon and elsewhere, he was above all a practical man who hand built the locos he did because it was the only way then of getting locos of the standard, in terms of realism, fidelity to prototype and running ability, that he wanted - and which Roye and the other trustees wanted for Pendon.

 

Times have changed, the excellent Martin Finney kits would seem to have survived (unsurprisingly) their acquisition by Brassmasters and would form an excellent basis for replacements for at least some of those of Guy's locos which should really be looking for an honourable semi-retirement. Furthermore, there are indeed now proprietary models which are so good that they might form the basis for everyday locos for Pendon, particularly for the Vale scene where trains aren't seen close up. However, providing them with chassis that would meet the exacting Pendon standards (and necessarily so) might prove just too much work.

 

Fifty-plus years ago, Roye was much concerned with building scenic models which wouldn't age and we had a number of discussions on the subject. I think that time has proved that his theories were right and the scenic models have survived long term and will continue to do so with relatively little maintenance. It is ironic, therefore, that we should now be talking about the ageing of Guy's models which, apart from tasks like motor, gear and wheel replacement, Roye thought would last forever.

[Denbridge]

I met Guy on a number of occasions, both at Pendon and elsewhere, he was above all a practical man who hand built the locos he did because it was the only way then of getting locos of the standard, in terms of realism, fidelity to prototype and running ability, that he wanted - and which Roye and the other trustees wanted for Pendon.

 

Times have changed, the excellent Martin Finney kits would seem to have survived (unsurprisingly) their acquisition by Brassmasters and would form an excellent basis for replacements for at least some of those of Guy's locos which should really be looking for an honourable semi-retirement. Furthermore, there are indeed now proprietary models which are so good that they might form the basis for everyday locos for Pendon, particularly for the Vale scene where trains aren't seen close up. However, providing them with chassis that would meet the exacting Pendon standards (and necessarily so) might prove just too much work.

 

Fifty-plus years ago, Roye was much concerned with building scenic models which wouldn't age and we had a number of discussions on the subject. I think that time has proved that his theories were right and the scenic models have survived long term and will continue to do so with relatively little maintenance. It is ironic, therefore, that we should now be talking about the ageing of Guy's models which, apart from tasks like motor, gear and wheel replacement, Roye thought would last forever.

Guy always said his locos would require rebuilding during their lifetime which by replacing things like motors, wheels motors etc can indeed last forever. The issue it seems is that Pendon no longer attracts the skilled modellers to undertake such tasks. Guys locos were indeed built to last. I recall him stating that when the barnum 3222 had a rebuild and motor replacement, his records showed it to have travelled further than the distance between Paddington and Bristol. That is real miles. Not scale.

[jjb1970]

Sounds a bit like Trigger's broom (btw, a joke that was going around long before it was used in Only Fools and Horses).