Tender connection problems (Hornby power spade) fixed

[john new]

I have recently bought a 2nd hand Hogwarts Castle and brief test running shows the front tender wheels are being lifted off the track, I think by springy-ness in the copper power collection spade which is necessary to maintain collection continuity. Result a loco + wheelbarrow. This fitting has obviously given problems before as there is some damage to the location slot and the tender steps on the left side are bent, possibly from it heavily whacking the power connection clip on the previous owner's set up once too often! 

 

Before I do the blindingly obvious fix of modifying it with a permanently bolted in replacement drawbar (Just like my 1960s Dublo Ludlow Castle has) and transfer power via a wired link have readers come across any other solutions not requiring a replacement fixing?

 

As you can see from this video link the tender is running wheelbarrow fashion and the tender steps catch on the power clip. The link = https://www.facebook.com/john.new.92/videos/1782740948512065/ 

 

Incidentally it is issues like this with modern locos' that led to my earlier post in the BRM thread. [That said, one factor across the board not just in BRM, is the trend that everything has to be super scale, fragile and expensive!  What ever happened to robust and reliable?]  The Hogwarts set was aimed at children, even for an adult this is a fiddly fixing and not really fit for purpose.

Edited May 24, 2020 by john new
Header and tags updated as loco now runs.

[john new]

I have recently bought a 2nd hand Hogwarts Castle and brief test running shows the front tender wheels are being lifted off the track, I think by springy-ness in the copper power collection spade which is necessary to maintain collection continuity. Result a loco + wheelbarrow. This fitting has obviously given problems before as there is some damage to the location slot and the tender steps on the left side are bent, possibly from it heavily whacking the power connection clip on the previous owner's set up once too often! 

 

Before I do the blindingly obvious fix of modifying it with a permanently bolted in replacement drawbar (Just like my 1960s Dublo Ludlow Castle has) and transfer power via a wired link have readers come across any other solutions not requiring a replacement fixing?

 

As you can see from this video link the tender is running wheelbarrow fashion and the tender steps catch on the power clip. The link = https://www.facebook.com/john.new.92/videos/1782740948512065/ 

 

Incidentally it is issues like this with modern locos' that led to my earlier post in the BRM thread. [That said, one factor across the board not just in BRM, is the trend that everything has to be super scale, fragile and expensive!  What ever happened to robust and reliable?]  The Hogwarts set was aimed at children, even for an adult this is a fiddly fixing and not really fit for purpose.

 

Interesting update. 

 

Having searched on YouTube to see of anyone had recorded a quick fix for this problem the servicing video I found for a Hogwarts Castle shows a (presumably) later version with its drawbar fixed in at both ends. However, the one I have looks like it must have come supplied as a separated loco & tender - reason I say that is because it is in an original Hornby Hogwarts set box and had the two items been supplied connected the linked combo'  could not have fitted into the formed styrene inner! 

 

I don't know enough though to categorically state it isn't a box recycled with appropriate replacement contents added by someone to make it look as though everything inside was from the original set with only the track mat missing! 

Edited August 22, 2018 by john new

[RAF96]

If we are talking about that unreliable springy finger and post arrangment Hornby use to get power across from loco to tender then you may wish to have a look here where I convert my Mallard into a semi fixed dead drawbar and install a plug and socket to transfer power across the gap.

 

http://myweb.cytanet.com.cy/honnor/page15.html

 

Some Hornby locos also have power pickups on the front bogie which is not covered in my writeup, but I have seen these simply hard wired.

 

Rob

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have recently bought a 2nd hand Hogwarts Castle ...

 

... the trend that everything has to be super scale, fragile and expensive!  What ever happened to robust and reliable?]  The Hogwarts set was aimed at children, even for an adult this is a fiddly fixing and not really fit for purpose.

 But unless I am much mistaken this toy production is based on 1990s(?) origin tooling rather than anything from the super scale, fragile, (latterly expensive) modern all new design Chinese manufactured models. Probably is inappropriate for a child's toy, but that's Hornby for you, milking the cash cow to the last drop. (I imagine the physical product in the pack would need to be super cheap for Hornby to make any money, what with the licencing fee that goes with such film tie-in franchises...)

 

I don't find the much improved current OO RTR to be any less robust mechanically than the H-D, Triang and Wrenn which was my first exposure to OO RTR from the late 1950s. The H-D was physically robust but operationally mechanically flaky, as was the subsequent Wrenn. Triang was the better option for robust operational performance. All were pretty crude mechanisms which ran with no great finesse. I said goodbye to all that in the late sixties, educated by club members in better DIY techniques to produce superior models in both running and appearance.

 

It was another 30 years before OO RTR product that could match the DIY models started to properly appear in quantity. I well recall looking at the Bachmann WD 2-8-0 model and thinking 'that's a model which would take a skilled kit builder to match'. Here too was the superior running performance previously requiring DIY mechanisms, and given adequate lubrication care I reckon they will endure equally well. (My oldest example is 17 years in now, still runs regularly as well as ever.) The finer applied detail has to be treated cautiously, 'tis true. But this has always been true of well detailed models, whether DIY or from a factory, nothing new there.

 

Old 'robust and reliable' OO is still in supply in plenteous quantity second hand at reasonable prices. I may be wrong on this, but reckon that this s/h mountain of older product precludes current commercial production of equivalents: the sale price it could achieve depressed below profitability by the existing s/h. As such the RTR manufacturers have to offer what the customer group en masse seem typically to require, which is good scale models with as much of the practical detail as possible well represented, and for which it appears sufficient of those customers are still prepared to choke up the cash. This may not suit every potential customer, but it is an imperfect world. (I cannot purhase the best Chelsea bun in the world from my local bakery - they know how to make them, but there simply isn't suficient customer demand to justify production.)

[john new]

If we are talking about that unreliable springy finger and post arrangment Hornby use to get power across from loco to tender then you may wish to have a look here where I convert my Mallard into a semi fixed dead drawbar and install a plug and socket to transfer power across the gap.

 

http://myweb.cytanet.com.cy/honnor/page15.html

 

Some Hornby locos also have power pickups on the front bogie which is not covered in my writeup, but I have seen these simply hard wired.

 

Rob

 

Back to the main topic, as I am not going to get drawn into an argument on quality and standards - we will have to agree to differ it has all been debated many times by many people as you can see from the digital v paper BRM thread! 

 

This is the tender link in question and thanks for your tip Rob

 

 

The spade connectors shove into slot A and you can clearly see from the box polystyrene it isn't that the Y end should have been a closed O and a permanently coupled pair. Not yet had time to dismantle anything to see if the copper spade actually carries power from some form of wheel pick-ups but there appear to be brass or copper connectors for it to connect to inside that tender slot. (If no current carried as built I may add tender pickups anyway). There are obvious fixes, some simple, some more complicated, for example the simplest is a home made drawbar with loop on each end, then remove that centre upright and glue a block of wood painted black in where the spaces are behind A - that then gives several options using a screw or vertical rod to fix both the drawbar issue and hold the tender top on. A wired connection to the tender would look like the water and other connections so no real issue there either.

 

I just wondered if anyone had any ideas on using it as is without the wheelbarrowing tender problem. For example would a white-metal fireman on the tender (or even just a lead fishing weight glued inside behind the tender front) weight the front down and fix the issue by compressing the springing effect or will that just raise the rear wheels instead? Why I asked the question is - someone will already have overcome this issue.

Edited August 22, 2018 by john new

[JSpencer]

The copper and plastic parts of the connector should be joined together laying flat and straight one on top of the other. The tender looks damage so it or may not have lost electrical connectivity. From memory (I got rid of mine a years back) I think this loco will run perfectly ok without the tender attached so no electrical pick up should not be a problem.

[RAF96]

See this

https://www.Hornby.com/us-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/19302/?p=1

 

There is a link to the full maintenace sheet showing additional detail and service sheet 306 shows the parts, which also indicates to me that there is power pickup only from one side of the tender.

 

Rob

[Stevelewis]

See this

https://www.Hornby.com/us-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/19302/?p=1

 

There is a link to the full maintenace sheet showing additional detail and service sheet 306 shows the parts, which also indicates to me that there is power pickup only from one side of the tender.

 

Rob

 

Some  years  ago  I  had a Hornby  King  Class  (NOT the  current  model  the  earlier  version) delivered to me  it  was  faulty  immeditely returned  and  not  replaced,  I have  a  vague  memory that  the  tender  pickup on that  loco  was  only  one  sided.

[john new]

Thank you all. Now have a good idea of where to start with fettling it.  

[JSpencer]

Some years ago I had a Hornby King Class (NOT the current model the earlier version) delivered to me it was faulty immeditely returned and not replaced, I have a vague memory that the tender pickup on that loco was only one sided.

The old Hornby King class, in fact all their tender drives, would pick up one side by the loco only and dispose on the other side tender only.

Many later had 5 pole motors and pickups added both sides (there was doubtless exceptions as I did not buy many of these models going for all new types with loco driven chassis instead).

 

However none of these have anything in common with Hogwarts castle here as this used former Dapol Castle class tooling which was used generally unchanged. I might have a county somewhere that used the same set up.

 

Edit: checked the country. There are 6 wiper pickups on the loco, one each driving wheel and 3 wiper pickups in the tender, all on one side only.

Edited August 22, 2018 by JSpencer

[melmerby]

The service sheet HSS306C (Old type Castle) does not show any connexion between loco and tender:

 

Keith

 

Airfix Castle (tender drive pancake) > Dapol Castle (loco drive pancake) > Hornby Castle (loco drive can motor) > New Hornby Castle (no relation to the 3 previous incarnations)

Edited August 22, 2018 by melmerby

[JSpencer]

The service sheet HSS306C (Old type Castle) does not show any connexion between loco and tender:

 

Keith

 

Airfix Castle (tender drive pancake) > Dapol Castle (loco drive pancake) > Hornby Castle (loco drive can motor) > New Hornby Castle (no relation to the 3 previous incarnations)

I had Hornby made Isambard Kingdom Brunel. It was the exact same pancake motor and tender draw bar as Dapol's.

[melmerby]

I had Hornby made Isambard Kingdom Brunel. It was the exact same pancake motor and tender draw bar as Dapol's.

As received from Dapol, later they re-motored it and now replaced by a completely new model, unrelated to the Airfix original.

 

Keith

[JSpencer]

As received from Dapol, later they re-motored it and now replaced by a completely new model, unrelated to the Airfix original.

 

Keith

 

Indeed, even the County was re-motorized. But it is clear from the pics of Hogwarts above (which from memory came out at around the same time as Isambard) that it is still pretty much the same set up as the Dapol tooling.

 

I also have the impression that the plastic used on these and their older Airfix cousins seems to become brittle with age on these particular models.

[RAF96]

The service sheet HSS306C (Old type Castle) does not show any connexion between loco and tender:

 

Keith

 

Airfix Castle (tender drive pancake) > Dapol Castle (loco drive pancake) > Hornby Castle (loco drive can motor) > New Hornby Castle (no relation to the 3 previous incarnations)

Looking at Item 15 in SS306 it appears to connect to the fork on the arrowed part in the tender, all held together by the screw (circled). The arrowed part looks like a pickup plate bearing on one side of the tender wheels. Admittedly there isn’t any wired connection shown in that diagram but I believe there is likely to be electricsl continuity. I do not have the model to be able to check.

 

Rob

 

HSS-306C-castle-loco(1) 2.pdf

Edited August 23, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[Black 5 Bear]

Deleted Wrong posting !

Edited August 23, 2018 by Black 5 Bear

[JSpencer]

Looking at Item 15 in SS306 it appears to connect to the fork on the arrowed part in the tender, all held together by the screw (circled). The arrowed part looks like a pickup plate bearing on one side of the tender wheels. Admittedly there isn’t any wired connection shown in that diagram but I believe there is likely to be electricsl continuity. I do not have the model to be able to check.

 

Rob

 

HSS-306C-castle-loco(1) 2.pdf

 

Correct. The tender in the diagram is the exact same set up as Dapol. The wipers touch the top of the wheel rims on one side only. The dipped fork at the front of the piece rubs against the copper strip under the drawbar. So no wires are required.

 

The loco chassis in the sheet is the later upgrade Hornby did to give it their can motor and DCC set up. But early years was no different to Dapol's offering other than reducing the price and replacing Dapol logos with Hornby's underneath.

[john new]

On 22/08/2018 at 12:09, john new said:

 

 --- cut ---

 

This is the tender link in question and thanks for your tip Rob

 

 

The spade connectors shove into slot A and you can clearly see from the box polystyrene it isn't that the Y end should have been a closed O and a permanently coupled pair.

 

----- cut ----

 

 

I tend do my repair work out doors in the summer as I have no workshop. After missing the repair slots last summer this loco has finally been into the works to have the problem of the derailing tender assessed and fixed.

 

Although it was not the only issue I did find what was the most  likely contributory factor. I assessed the prime problem as the damage on the tender drag beam shown at A in the photo above. The thin plastic strip below the slot had been split and distorted out of shape and any repair was unlikely to survive if glued without any support. A strand of copper wire stripped out of some rescued heavy duty electric cable (cooker feed I think) was bent to shape and glued across underneath with Ls at either end. By careful positioning it is still possible to get the separate chassis in/out; painted black since the photo it hardly shows.

 

The loco also needs some further remedial work in the cab area; it still rides slightly high at the back end which lifts the front of the tender, but not enough for derailments. The cause appears to be that what ever the long chassis mounting screw below the cab fits into is either missing or has a stripped thread. 

 

 

 

The video shows it running earlier this evening on a temporary lockdown pizza circuit. Luckily our B&Q garden table is just big enough for this 2nd radius test-track oval.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by john new
Reinserted sill image

[john new]

On 22/08/2018 at 18:36, RAF96 said:

See this

https://www.Hornby.com/us-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/19302/?p=1

 

There is a link to the full maintenace sheet showing additional detail and service sheet 306 shows the parts, which also indicates to me that there is power pickup only from one side of the tender.

 

Rob

This was checked and yes, pick up from one side of the tender.