Last BR Steam Overhauls when?

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

With this being about 50 years since the 15 Guinea Special in August 1968, when I was listening to the Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Hendrix and so on, I find myself wondering when and where the last Heavy General (HG) and Heavy Intermediate (HI) steam locomotive overhauls took place.

 

I vaguely recall 70013 being the last Britannia to receive a heavy overhaul, but I am unsure as to which engine and at which workshop was in fact the last.

 

Any comments, memories or facts welcomed,

 

TIA

 

Rob

Edited August 25, 2018 by robmcg

[TravisM]

70013 Oliver Cromwell was the last steam loco overhauled at Crewe works. I believe others were scheduled after 13 was done but they were cancelled.

[robmcg]

70013 Oliver Cromwell was the last steam loco overhauled at Crewe works. I believe others were scheduled after 13 was done but they were cancelled.

 

Ah yes, I meant to write 70013, it was a typo to write 70014,  I have edited the question. Thanks.  I was also wondering about the last 9F or Black 5 as well..  but of course I'm not sure about the exact meaning of such as 'HC' (heavy conditional?)   and whether that ought to count.

 

Thanks again.

[Dunsignalling]

Ah yes, I meant to write 70013, it was a typo to write 70014,  I have edited the question. Thanks.  I was also wondering about the last 9F or Black 5 as well..  but of course I'm not sure about the exact meaning of such as 'HC' (heavy conditional?)   and whether that ought to count.

 

Thanks again.

HC stood for Heavy Casual, and meant that faulty items would be dealt with as necessary but serviceable components that would normally feature in a General would be left alone if judged to be good enough to last until the loco's next scheduled works visit*. Paint defects would receive attention but a full repaint would be unusual.

 

*In the last few months of steam that meant items were [a] good enough to last until anticipated withdrawal or  currently OK but would trigger withdrawal in the event of failure.

 

John

Edited August 25, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Crewe were doing major overhauls on some of the engines selected for the 'Strategic Reserve' quite late on but when the scheme was cancelled overhauls to that level were discontinued.

 

(Yes, the 'Strategic Reserve' really did exist - with whatever name it was actually given - on paper.  But when the idea was looked at more closely and its economics, and particularly what it could actually achieve, began to be more closely questioned it was quietly dropped although overhauls for long term retention had been carried out on some engines.)

[woodenhead]

Crewe were doing major overhauls on some of the engines selected for the 'Strategic Reserve' quite late on but when the scheme was cancelled overhauls to that level were discontinued.

 

(Yes, the 'Strategic Reserve' really did exist - with whatever name it was actually given - on paper.  But when the idea was looked at more closely and its economics, and particularly what it could actually achieve, began to be more closely questioned it was quietly dropped although overhauls for long term retention had been carried out on some engines.)

Was this a case of they were getting the right overhaul at the right time or some additional restorations for long term storage. It seems odd to prepare a locomotive for something then send it back out into service again or were they retained at works until the scheme died and they were released then?

[LMS2968]

Several locos following overhaul went into storage for various periods and not immediately returned to service. One of these was 8F 8773, so was at least one of the preserved Black Fives, although I'm struggling to remember which one.

[brack]

No. 9 (98009) was converted to oil firing in 1981 so certainly a little while past 1968, I'd assume there were further overhauls between then and privatisation but I haven't got the dates.

[coachmann]

I don't know about overhauls. I only saw the affect of the lack of them on the ex.GWR/Cambrian areas.  The other three regions didn't seem too fussed about external appearance, and the build up of grime acted as a protective barrier to metalwork I suppose.  The Western Region was a beacon in Wales and the borders for clean green paintwork, so when cleaning ceased around 1963/4, the well scrubbed paint was so thin that it offered little protection. Like Datsun cars, rust appeared in all the wrong places(!) and Western Region locos ended up looking the worst of the lot.  Their coaches didn't fare well either and it was noticeable that L.M.Region Stanier coaches brought a shine back to the region after the L.M.R. took over.

Edited August 25, 2018 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

I endorse Coachmann's commets, and remember a trip back from Gloucester to Cardiff in '63 with a Hall so decrepit that there were much better locos in Woodham's yard!  No brasswork, cab windows, chimney cab, and safety valve cover missing, a cloud of steam with a rattle in the middle.  Covering for a failed Cross Country dmu with a set of 3 Hawksworths off the Hereford service, it lost time all the way down and failed at Newport, or at least was put out of it's misery there, and the train caped.  Kept the steam heating working on a freezing night, though!

[The Stationmaster]

Was this a case of they were getting the right overhaul at the right time or some additional restorations for long term storage. It seems odd to prepare a locomotive for something then send it back out into service again or were they retained at works until the scheme died and they were released then?

 

According to what I was told they were given heavy general overhauls at a time when it was really a waste of money to spend that much on an overhaul and a casual repair of work arising would have been more appropriate.   Most went to work but inevitably some (as already indicated) would have finished up in store for a while - a common symptom towards the end of steam (although in reality it had been going on for many years previously as traffic levels fluctuated).

 

There was quite a big programme but once the daft nature of the whole idea, plus its costs. were realised the whole thing was stopped.  One could really wonder why anybody came up with it in the first place as it would have been restricted to using depots in north west England as many others had lost all facilities to deal with steam by then hence the 'reserve' could in any case only have been used in north west England and not nationally and somebody made the point that it didn't make much sense to have something which couldn't be used nationally.  the costs of getting depots into the right condition for long term storage of engines didn't help either so it bit the dust.

 

The interesting thing which has always fascinated me about the scheme is whether any of the paperwork relating to it has survived or whether it was destroyed.  I was involved in something in the 1990s where the project was cancelled after a lot of work had been done on it and anyone holding any files was instructed to ensure that they were destroyed so there would be no detailed information left although it would still appear in some high level meeting notes.  But all the detail stuff was supposed to go; I can't remember what happened to all the files I held

[robmcg]

It would certainly be interesting to work out which of the 'last' classes on BR such as Std classes and Black 5s, 8Fs and so on, were last to receive significant overhauls.

 

I am wondering if anyone has tabulated anything like the last overhauls at various workshops, Eastleigh, Brighton, Doncaster, Darlington, Cowlairs, Swindon, or others? And Crewe of course.  I apologise for my lack of research on the histories of these great workshops.

 

Of course any such list would be full of discrepancies arising from definition of 'overhaul', but would still make interesting reading. I guess it's because my teenage years neatly spanned the end of BR steam and withdrawals and the disappearance of steam were a fact of life...  think of where we were exactly 50 years ago!   And yet when I was 10 yrs old in 1961 quite a few engines were still receiving what I thought of as 'full' overhauls, and Deltics were new, and I hadn't realised at that age that steam would disappear so quickly.

 

This was brought home to me recently looking at works histories of 9Fs... some hardly ever or never received any serious work between construction and withdrawal.

[TravisM]

I seem to remember reading years ago that the list of loco’s to go on the “strategic reserve” list included the rebuilt WC & BB’s due to their recent rebuilding, Black 5’s, 8F’s, Britannia’s, the standard 4-6-0’s and 9F’s. Obviously not all the loco’s in each class were kept, just the best or recently overhauled examples.

[pH]

Here's a post from the 'On this day in history' topic about a visit to Crewe Works in late 1966:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/380-on-this-day-in-history/?p=2098486

 

I remember being surprised at the number of WDs in Crewe Works in records of this and other visits so late in steam days.

[robmcg]

I seem to remember reading years ago that the list of loco’s to go on the “strategic reserve” list included the rebuilt WC & BB’s due to their recent rebuilding, Black 5’s, 8F’s, Britannia’s, the standard 4-6-0’s and 9F’s. Obviously not all the loco’s in each class were kept, just the best or recently overhauled examples.

 

At a quick glance at Irwell's 9F book, a lot of 9Fs received casual overhauls in 1966 give-or-take, and spent time in storage before being withdrawn in late 67 and cut up very quickly.   Sad days.

[Mark Forrest]

[Pedant Mode]

One of the Vale of Rheidol locos, mid-'80s?

[/Pedant Mode]

[The Stationmaster]

I seem to remember reading years ago that the list of loco’s to go on the “strategic reserve” list included the rebuilt WC & BB’s due to their recent rebuilding, Black 5’s, 8F’s, Britannia’s, the standard 4-6-0’s and 9F’s. Obviously not all the loco’s in each class were kept, just the best or recently overhauled examples.

 

According to what I was told the retained engines were to be from these classes were to be Black 5, 8Fs, 9Fs and possibly some others such as Standard 5s.  All would come from current LMR stock based in the north west which was in any case effectively the place where steam was by then concentrated anyway and all were simple 2 cylinder engines with 100% outside valve gear (for obvuious reasons.

 

There were tales about among enthusiasts towards the end of SR steam that the best remaining Bulleid pacifics were to be transferred to the LMR but it might well have been wishful thinking.  i can hardly imagine anybody wanting to take on the added complexity of 'foreign' 3 cylinder engines when there were still more than enough 2 cylinder engines of similar power available in the shape of the 'Britannias'. 

[bike2steam]

There were tales about among enthusiasts towards the end of SR steam that the best remaining Bulleid pacifics were to be transferred to the LMR but it might well have been wishful thinking.  

 

You aint kidding, what ya might call a reverse myth ( but less so) from a few years earlier, but talking of myths, none have circulated and been 'done to death' like that of the 'strategic reserve', even 'Granges' ( god forbid) - 'nough said!!

Edited August 26, 2018 by bike2steam

[coachmann]

Wasn't there an idea floating about in the earlt 1950's that Bulleid's light Pacific's would be useful in Scotland. Personally, i can't imagine anything Bulleid being useful anywhere let alone where brakes were paramount. His name would have stunk to high heaven at any other time in railway history for the chaos he caused with so many engines. 

[robmcg]

Do I detect very slight antipathy towards chain-driven valve gear, lower maintenance and comfortable cabs? 

 

any excuse to put up a pic of the last days of BR steam, regardless... 

 

 

I wonder which was the last standard 5MT to recive a significant overhaul?

 

 

[Mad McCann]

I was surprised to learn the Cowlairs was carrying out K1 overhaul work for the NE region into late 1966 after Darlington had gone.

There is footage of a ‘running in’ K1 at Balornock (65B) in August of that year, when that depot itself had barely three months to go.

 

D.

[Ben Alder]

Wasn't there an idea floating about in the earlt 1950's that Bulleid's light Pacific's would be useful in Scotland. Personally, i can't imagine anything Bulleid being useful anywhere let alone where brakes were paramount. His name would have stunk to high heaven at any other time in railway history for the chaos he caused with so many engines. 

Bude apparently gave a good account of itself in 1948 and I did read somewhere about proposals to shift some rebuilds north, but can't remember where or when...Interesting scenario though.....

[bike2steam]

 

I wonder which was the last standard 5MT to recive a significant overhaul?

 

I think it was 73069 about September 1966 at Crewe.

 

edit, while browsing thro' the RCTS book on the Brits for some info, I came across a mention of 70004 being the last overhaul at Darlington in Feb 1965.

Edited August 27, 2018 by bike2steam

[Bon Accord]

I was surprised to learn the Cowlairs was carrying out K1 overhaul work for the NE region into late 1966 after Darlington had gone.

There is footage of a ‘running in’ K1 at Balornock (65B) in August of that year, when that depot itself had barely three months to go.

 

D.

 

 

The last BR steam locomotive to be overhauled in Scotland was 62059 which left Cowlairs on 22nd September 1966.

62059 was allocated to Blyth North (52F) at the time and was withdrawn on 12th February 1967, a mere four and a half months later!

As well as mechanical attention it also received a full repaint into unlined BR black

[JeffP]

I could never understand why so many black fives lasted to the end, when there were far newer and improved(??) Standard fives available?