Cwm Prysor - 'The Bala Branch'

[Tom F]

Andrew Ullyott (Ullypug) has an interesting and effective method here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1253/entry-21328-cheddar-p4-sept-2018-update-greenery-part-3/#commentsStart

 

 

Thanks Tim, I'll have a look later.

 

The next area I will need to address, is the telegraph poles on the branch. Nothing RTP looks right, so I'm looking to making my own, as they are quite distinctive on the branch, here are some examples:

 

 

 

My thoughts are to use Kebab sticks, and possibly micro strip for the brackets....any ideas about the pots? Or does anyone have some suggestions on making their own?

[Tim V]

I tried using microstrip for the cross arms - too fragile. I then got hold of some Mike Clark (Masokits) telegraph pole kits, much better.

[Tom F]

I tried using microstrip for the cross arms - too fragile. I then got hold of some Mike Clark (Masokits) telegraph pole kits, much better.

 

 

Oooh, I didn't know Mike made those Tim. I need to order some lamp irons and screw links, so you've given me another reason to get my order in.

 

What comes on the etch Tim, and would you mind posting some examples of yours? Should they be able to make a representation of the ones I posted?

[AdeMoore]

Tom here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8440-telegraph-poles/

 

Also ready made but pricey

 

https://www.expressmodels.co.uk/catalogue/4mm-scale-hand-made-telegraph-poles/3-bar-telegraph-pole-detail

 

Cheers

[Tom F]

Tom here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8440-telegraph-poles/

 

Also ready made but pricey

 

https://www.expressmodels.co.uk/catalogue/4mm-scale-hand-made-telegraph-poles/3-bar-telegraph-pole-detail

 

Cheers

 

 

Cheers for that Ade! I'll get an order put in!

[Tim V]

The Masokits are quite flexible, I think they could make the earlier style like on your branch.

[Tom F]

The Masokits are quite flexible, I think they could make the earlier style like on your branch.

Thanks Tim

 

Had a look at one of the links Ade posted and they look fairly adaptable. Interestingly there seemed to be two sets of telegraph poles at Cwm Prysor which ran parallel. 3 brackets by the road, but the more compex type running by the line side.

 

[mike morley]

The set actually on the embankment would be the railway's route while the poles outside the boundary fence were probably serving an upland hamlet or similar.

[Tom F]

The set actually on the embankment would be the railway's route while the poles outside the boundary fence were probably serving an upland hamlet or similar.

Thanks Mike

 

That had crossed my mind.

There was quite a big telegraph pole by the crossing keepers cottage, which I suspect is where the two telephone lines diverge/meet.

Edited October 3, 2018 by 9793

[Tim V]

Thanks Mike

 

That had crossed my mind.

There was quite a big telegraph pole by the crossing keepers cottage, which I suspect is where the two telephone lines diverge/meet.

 

Agree about the second set of poles - they look like standard GPO, not railway. Different style.

 

There is a break in the bell line (the very top wire) where there are two insulators. An instrument would have been in/near the gate keepers cottage to indicate the train. Bit like this one near Dyffryn Ardudwy.

[Tom F]

Ah yes Tim! Here’s Cwm Prysor’s.

Edited October 3, 2018 by 9793

[Gordon A]

Thanks Tim

 

Had a look at one of the links Ade posted and they look fairly adaptable. Interestingly there seemed to be two sets of telegraph poles at Cwm Prysor which ran parallel. 3 brackets by the road, but the more compex type running by the line side.

 

F79CC5F0-523B-42F2-8210-4E86664E9E4F.jpeg

 

Interesting formation in the picture.

Two coaches, a box van and a guards van.

 

Did they run mixed trains on the branch?

 

Gordon A

[Regularity]

Interesting formation in the picture.

Two coaches, a box van and a guards van.

 

Did they run mixed trains on the branch?

 

Gordon A

See post 15: generally, one goods train each way per day, but the passenger trains often had a fitted vehicle (including Presflos - see post 10 for a picture) added.

As this is an early 50s shot, maybe there was a mixed train, but it maybe that the van had missed the scheduled goods train, but had an urgent delivery. Bring unfitted, a brakeman with guard would need to go on the end.

Some of the workings were odd and rather convoluted to say the least, particularly the pattern of coach sets.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Regularity

[Tom F]

See post 15: generally, one goods train each way per day, but the passenger trains often had a fitted vehicle (including Presflos - see post 10 for a picture) added.

As this is an early 50s shot, maybe there was a mixed train, but it maybe that the van had missed the scheduled goods train, but had an urgent delivery. Bring unfitted, a brakeman with guard would need to go on the end.

Some of the workings were odd and rather convoluted to say the least, particularly the pattern of coach sets.

It’s interesting as you can see that the 1954 WTT (and I think the 1956 one too) show mixed trains workings.

 

I suspect as Simon suggests, that wagons (such as the presflo pictured earlier) were unofficially added to trains where needed. Perhaps what differentiates the two is when a Brake Van was added.

[Gordon A]

Thanks chaps. A mixed train certainly adds to the variety.

 

Gordon A

[The Johnster]

A mixed is a different deal to a service passenger train with XP rated vehicles as tail traffic.  Such wagons have vacuum brakes and are designed to run with passenger traffic, so that the brakes are compatible in terms of how they apply so that bumps and snatches for the passengers are minimised.  A mixed is run where the Sectional Appendix authorises it with unfitted wagons and a goods brake van at rear; timings are extended so the train can run more slowly and the timetable will specify longer periods at stations for shunting.  

 

Which leaves a question over Presflo tail traffic on the Blaenau Festiniog (one F because that's how it was spelled at the time).  Presflos are 9 foot wheelbase wagons that are not XP rated. they have vacuum brakes but a 10' wheelbase is necessary for the XP rating.  The traffic arose because of the need for cement at the big engineering projects around Blaenau, the Trawsfynydd Power Station and the Tan y Grisiau pumped storage scheme, and photographic evidence suggests that it was a common occurrence.  Presumably presflos went up on the daily pickup, but cement was often needed at other times as well.

 

If it happened that often, it must have been officially sanctioned.  I can see things being 'got away with' at Cwm Prysor or even Trawsfynydd, but not at Blaenau where too many eyes are watching!  I suspect there was an allowance for this traffic in the Sectional Appendix.

 

The photo of the mixed is a bit of an enigma as well.  The van looks to have been a fitted and presumably XP rated one (though it might be a dirty unfitted one which would explain things; I can't make out from the photo if there is an XP branding on the van).  So, if the van is an XP one, why the brake van, in which a guard is clearly riding?  The train is running towards Blaenau, isn't it?  Perhaps it is an unfitted one being taken up for a return working, or perhaps it is piped through, in which case there needs to be a guard riding in it.   But it can't be unfitted, as there are no side lamps carried, so the van must be fitted as well.  But why is the train running as a mixed if the van is fitted and could be carried as tail traffic?

 

Another explanation might be winter.  The goods van and brake van do not have steam heating pipes, and cannot be marshalled between the loco and the train if steam heating is needed.  

 

Any advance on this, chaps?

[Jub45565]

I'd be interested in seeing a Masokits etch, but not sure it will add much if not modelling 4 & 6 insulator brackets, & not needing foot step brackets.

 

My current plan is to plagarise from here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129453-kinlochmore-%E2%80%93-west-highland-4mm-p4/page-2

 

But as I say I haven't seen the masokits offering, and there may be useful bits on it I've not accounted for (stay tensioners?).

[Regularity]

It’s interesting as you can see that the 1954 WTT (and I think the 1956 one too) show mixed trains workings. 3E9924AF-D084-4692-91CB-A8CDBEFAE53E.png

 

How did I miss that?

The first one is Saturdays only. The second doesn’t spend very long at most stations: shunting is unlikely at intermediate stops, as the train engine would need to uncouple from the train, run round yo the rear, buffer up very carefully (because there might be passengers on the train), shunt the wagons, reconnect the brake van, run round again, couple up, test the brakes, create the vacuum and set off. Not likely to get all that done even in the ten minutes spent at F(f)estiniog. That is more likely to be spent unloading the “station truck” which is carrying non-urgent small traffic from the nearest regional centre.

 

Which leaves a question over Presflo tail traffic on the Blaenau Festiniog (one F because that's how it was spelled at the time).  Presflos are 9 foot wheelbase wagons that are not XP rated. they have vacuum brakes but a 10' wheelbase is necessary for the XP rating.  

Except that (apart from the first one, which was 12’6” wb) they were 10’6” wheelbase. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brflyashpresflocsv

 

Even if the only tail traffic happened to be fitted, if it was a mixed train, a brakevan would still be required as it might be necessary for the return journey.

[Tom F]

How did I miss that?

The first one is Saturdays only. The second doesn’t spend very long at most stations: shunting is unlikely at intermediate stops, as the train engine would need to uncouple from the train, run round yo the rear, buffer up very carefully (because there might be passengers on the train), shunt the wagons, reconnect the brake van, run round again, couple up, test the brakes, create the vacuum and set off. Not likely to get all that done even in the ten minutes spent at F(f)estiniog. That is more likely to be spent unloading the “station truck” which is carrying non-urgent small traffic from the nearest regional centre.

 

Except that (apart from the first one, which was 12’6” wb) they were 10’6” wheelbase. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brflyashpresflocsv

 

Even if the only tail traffic happened to be fitted, if it was a mixed train, a brakevan would still be required as it might be necessary for the return journey.

 

 

Simon, interesting another mixed train is shown from Blaenau, on a weekday....however this one terminates at Trawsfynydd. I've have a look tonight what the 1956 timetable says.

Regarding Presflos, worth nothing too that all examples I've seen in photos show the later type Presflo, with a short handbrake and twin vac cylinders. They must have been pretty much brand new when they appeared on the branch. 

 

I have another photo taken from a carriage window showing a Presflo in the train (this time behind the loco and between the carriage, rather than at the rear).

Edited October 3, 2018 by 9793

[Regularity]

No reason for not having the presflo between engine and coach, I suppose, other than preference and custom!

 

One of my many railway interests is North American short lines, on some of which a ‘combine’ (brake third!) acted as caboose (guard’s van!) by the simple expedient of putting it at the end of the daily mixed train. Some others had passenger accommodation at the front, and a caboose at the rear. Easy enough to do when the whole train has continuous brakes, and also carries a crew of five, with head and rear brakemen (effectively, shunters as in people not engines) in addition to engineer (driver), fireman (fireman) and conductor (guard).

 

What you really need is the appendix to the working timetable, which will really tell you how they operated things.

[Tom F]

This weekends modelling job (between going to Wigan on Saturday).

 

I'm going to surface the platform. It's currently bare mod rock painted, so the plan is to do a similar job as I did with the road. Paint, then while wet scatter with chinchilla dust and ash. I'm using this photo as reference (a year after passenger trains ended). Once grass is added, I think the ash/chinchilla dust should look the part.

 

[Kylestrome]

My thoughts are to use Kebab sticks, and possibly micro strip for the brackets....any ideas about the pots? Or does anyone have some suggestions on making their own?

 

I've made a stab at making my own, but yours will involve a bit more work! I avoided putting on the foot steps as I couldn't think of a way to do them consistently and fine enough.

 

See post #47

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129453-kinlochmore-–-west-highland-4mm-p4/page-2

 

David

Edited October 3, 2018 by Kylestrome

[Regularity]

Having seen the full photo, the train is composed of two full-thirds, LMS style van, and toad, without which, whither the guard?

[The Johnster]

How did I miss that?

The first one is Saturdays only. The second doesn’t spend very long at most stations: shunting is unlikely at intermediate stops, as the train engine would need to uncouple from the train, run round yo the rear, buffer up very carefully (because there might be passengers on the train), shunt the wagons, reconnect the brake van, run round again, couple up, test the brakes, create the vacuum and set off. Not likely to get all that done even in the ten minutes spent at F(f)estiniog. That is more likely to be spent unloading the “station truck” which is carrying non-urgent small traffic from the nearest regional centre.

 

Except that (apart from the first one, which was 12’6” wb) they were 10’6” wheelbase. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brflyashpresflocsv

 

Even if the only tail traffic happened to be fitted, if it was a mixed train, a brakevan would still be required as it might be necessary for the return journey.

 

I stand corrected on my new wheelbase...

[The Johnster]

No reason for not having the presflo between engine and coach, I suppose, other than preference and custom!

 

One of my many railway interests is North American short lines, on some of which a ‘combine’ (brake third!) acted as caboose (guard’s van!) by the simple expedient of putting it at the end of the daily mixed train. Some others had passenger accommodation at the front, and a caboose at the rear. Easy enough to do when the whole train has continuous brakes, and also carries a crew of five, with head and rear brakemen (effectively, shunters as in people not engines) in addition to engineer (driver), fireman (fireman) and conductor (guard).

 

What you really need is the appendix to the working timetable, which will really tell you how they operated things.

You would not marshall a Presflo, or any other freight wagon not fitted with a through steam heating pipe, between the loco and the train during the steam heating period, otherwise there is not reason why this could not be done.

 

The North American 'combine' had it's own heating in the form of a pot belly stove, like a British freight brake van.