Killybegs Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said: Last train.... I think that's your most evocative pic so far Tom. Fabulous. 4 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said: Last train.... The 'perfect' model railway photograph? Regards, Tony. 3 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Killybegs said: I think that's your most evocative pic so far Tom. Fabulous. 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: The 'perfect' model railway photograph? Regards, Tony. That's very kind of you both. I now need to start thinking about the next stage, which will be the dry stone walling around the station. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: The 'perfect' model railway photograph? I think so. It just takes you straight to the place. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said: This beauty of an image has just appeared in a Facebook group. It's one I've not seen before! 4645 (my favourite of the 8750s) preparing to leave Blaenau. Interesting the addition of the Brake Van. The Presflos as fitted wagons didn't need a guards van when in use with a passenger train, so I do think this is more than a 'van movement' back to Bala. This has to be a mixed train with a van sans through pipe and a guard riding in it; an empty van movement with a piped van would have the van marshalled between the loco and the coach. The van on it's own means that it must be classed as a mixed train, regardless of the Presflo, which seems a little pointless unless there was a serious need for the brake van at Bala. I suspect the Presflo has suffered a vacuum failure, which they were prone to with claggy cement finding it's way into pipes and/or cylinders, and this would be a reason for the 'mixed' working. The 'flo is presumably an empty, having delivered it's load to the Stwlan site or wherever, and there must be a shortage if it needs to be forwarded without waiting for the next pickup. If this is the case, the van should be carrying side lamps, and perhaps in a minute it will be. By the way, I don't care what the station running in board claims, that's not Blaenau Ffestiniog. The sun is out and it isn't raining, so it can't possibly be... 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, The Johnster said: This has to be a mixed train with a van sans through pipe and a guard riding in it; an empty van movement with a piped van would have the van marshalled between the loco and the coach. The van on it's own means that it must be classed as a mixed train, regardless of the Presflo, which seems a little pointless unless there was a serious need for the brake van at Bala. I suspect the Presflo has suffered a vacuum failure, which they were prone to with claggy cement finding it's way into pipes and/or cylinders, and this would be a reason for the 'mixed' working. The 'flo is presumably an empty, having delivered it's load to the Stwlan site or wherever, and there must be a shortage if it needs to be forwarded without waiting for the next pickup. If this is the case, the van should be carrying side lamps, and perhaps in a minute it will be. Interesting. I can confirm though that the train isn't the mixed service. That was 11.15 off Blaenau. The 4.25pm was a Class B passenger. Also, I believe the Toad is unfitted, I can see the lettering has a black background suggesting it's in grey. It was suggested to me by someone, that Brake Vans were like shopping trollies, and often ended up in places they didn't want to be, hence I was more inclined to a van movement. Wonderful photograph, and one I can recreate! Edited July 18, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 I've several photos showing Presflos being attached to passenger trains, I presume because of demand. 8727 between Arenig and Cwm Prysor. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Well.....why not... 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 I agree it's an unfitted van, which is fine on a mixed working. This would be authorised by the Sectional Appendix, but if the 'flo is unfitted (and if it is fitted why is there a brake van?) side lamps must be put up before the train is given right away. As to brake vans and supermarket trollies, there are similarities, not least the ride quality which is better with the trollies, which are also warmer and less draughty... It is the nature of freight work that empty trains are lighter than full ones, so some traffic flows are always going to result in an imbalance; if there are less empty workings of more wagons than loaded ones of less wagons in non-circuit diagrams, brake vans will accumulate at marshalling yards, as will locos at sheds. Locos, however, can find their own ways home. This may occur for other reasons as well, and results in weekly booked brake van trains or control-ordered specials to redress the balance if a yard was running short of vans and another's van kip siding was full. In some areas this is reduced by 'ebv' workings, which peak at the start and end of the working week. But I cannot envisage a situation on a branch line of this sort where Bala Junction is going to be so short of brake vans as to need one brought back on a passenger train; even if there is an imbalance it will be well known about and prepared for. IMHO this is a return to workshop of an empty green card Presflo (springs do not look compressed by 35tons gross of cement and presflo) needing a manned brake van behind it. Not sure green (one journey to repair shops only) cards were permitted on mixed trains, but things sometimes happen on remote branches that do not always stand the closest of scrutiny... Perhaps the point is that this is Friday and nearly tea time. If the 'flo is in a circuit, or borrowed from one, it may be needed urgently enough to justify this working, repairs being booked at the nearest suitable workshop over the weekend (Oswestry?) for return to traffic on Monday morning, or it is not a repair at all but a balancing move. Presflos are the sort of specialised wagons subject to this sort of thing. It's made for a fascinating photo, but, I repeat, this cannot possibly be Blaenau Ffestiniog. AFAIK this and the Conway Valley branch were the only places that Presflos, not XP rated, were permitted to run as tail traffic on passenger trains, but I an happy to be corrected on this. Possible additions would be in connection with the construction of the Dounreay and Dungeness nuclear plants (and whatever else they do at Dounreay), to Wick and Dungeness respectively. Nuclear power stations need a lot of concrete, and thus cement. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said: Well.....why not... Ah, now that brings back memories! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, The Johnster said: I agree it's an unfitted van, which is fine on a mixed working. This would be authorised by the Sectional Appendix, but if the 'flo is unfitted (and if it is fitted why is there a brake van?) side lamps must be put up before the train is given right away. As to brake vans and supermarket trollies, there are similarities, not least the ride quality which is better with the trollies, which are also warmer and less draughty... It is the nature of freight work that empty trains are lighter than full ones, so some traffic flows are always going to result in an imbalance; if there are less empty workings of more wagons than loaded ones of less wagons in non-circuit diagrams, brake vans will accumulate at marshalling yards, as will locos at sheds. Locos, however, can find their own ways home. This may occur for other reasons as well, and results in weekly booked brake van trains or control-ordered specials to redress the balance if a yard was running short of vans and another's van kip siding was full. In some areas this is reduced by 'ebv' workings, which peak at the start and end of the working week. But I cannot envisage a situation on a branch line of this sort where Bala Junction is going to be so short of brake vans as to need one brought back on a passenger train; even if there is an imbalance it will be well known about and prepared for. IMHO this is a return to workshop of an empty green card Presflo (springs do not look compressed by 35tons gross of cement and presflo) needing a manned brake van behind it. Not sure green (one journey to repair shops only) cards were permitted on mixed trains, but things sometimes happen on remote branches that do not always stand the closest of scrutiny... Perhaps the point is that this is Friday and nearly tea time. If the 'flo is in a circuit, or borrowed from one, it may be needed urgently enough to justify this working, repairs being booked at the nearest suitable workshop over the weekend (Oswestry?) for return to traffic on Monday morning, or it is not a repair at all but a balancing move. Presflos are the sort of specialised wagons subject to this sort of thing. It's made for a fascinating photo, but, I repeat, this cannot possibly be Blaenau Ffestiniog. AFAIK this and the Conway Valley branch were the only places that Presflos, not XP rated, were permitted to run as tail traffic on passenger trains, but I an happy to be corrected on this. Possible additions would be in connection with the construction of the Dounreay and Dungeness nuclear plants (and whatever else they do at Dounreay), to Wick and Dungeness respectively. Nuclear power stations need a lot of concrete, and thus cement. Well, I can confirm that presflos (I think all were) fitted, hence they were often stuck on the back of a passenger trains on the branch without the brake van. I've quite a few photos of the presflos on the branch, and they all seem to be of the short handbrake type (as does this one looking closely) which were essentially new in 1959 (This is May 1959) so I'd be surprised that it would be needing a repair. Who knows, either way it's an interesting photograph. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Just a thought. Could it just be some shunting going on prior to departure. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 Certainly is. Presflos were new in '59, and all were fitted from the first build, but they were regarded as mineral wagons and despite being fitted and on 10' wheelbases were not rated or branded XP as suitable for running in passenger trains. Thus their use on the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch as tail traffic was covered by an authorisation in the Sectional Appendix, and subject to the wagon(s), IIRC limited to two, having their brakes operational and tested. Interestingly, they were fitted with lamp irons so could be marshalled as the tail vehicle in a fully fitted or passenger train. This branch and the Conway Valley had a need at this time for cement to be delivered on or close to major building sites; the Stwlan and Tanygrisiau dams were under construction, as was the Llyn Trawsfynydd dam and the power station, not to mention the Treweryn a few years later though traffic for that went by road IIRC. Is it possible that the photo post dates the introduction of Presflos but pre-dates that of the Sectional Appendix authority? In this case there may have been a requirement to convey Presflos in mixed trains, hence the brake van, and if the brake is working on the Presflo the brake van can carry a single lamp (subject to my possibly faulty recollection of the matter) As the Beatles once said, there will be an answer, let it be, let it be... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, KeithHC said: Just a thought. Could it just be some shunting going on prior to departure. Keith Could be, but the passenger's clothing trapped in the door suggests that passengers are aboard, so shunting is less likely. OTOH as I've already pointed out this could be evidence of fare dodging and boarding unseen from the wrong side, in which case the staff would not have been aware that passengers were aboard the train! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, The Johnster said: This branch and the Conway Valley had a need at this time for cement to be delivered on or close to major building sites; the Stwlan and Tanygrisiau dams were under construction, as was the Llyn Trawsfynydd dam and the power station, not to mention the Treweryn a few years later though traffic for that went by road IIRC. Is it possible that the photo post dates the introduction of Presflos but pre-dates that of the Sectional Appendix authority? In this case there may have been a requirement to convey Presflos in mixed trains, hence the brake van, and if the brake is working on the Presflo the brake van can carry a single lamp (subject to my possibly faulty recollection of the matter) Does this mean Presflos were coming in from the Western Region and the London Midland Region? At the time of the photo, the Bala and Conwy Valley lines were not joined. May 15th 1959 is the date of the photo at Blaenau, and as can be found with the photo by PGH at Arenig, it's date is circa 1959. IMHO 14th May is at the end of the Bala Branch's passenger life (closing in January 1960), and with other photos I've seen with a presflo in a train, this fits in the period they were being used in passenger trains without a brake van. Just a point to make on the back of your presflo comment. Presflos had begun appearing earlier than 1959. I don't have the dates to hand, but they were entering service from the mid 1950s onwards. I was referring to the fact the short hand rail, and twin brake cyilnder 'Presflos' were appearing new in 1959, and were generally the ones making an appearance on the branch. Edited July 18, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) We may have the answer! The photographer of the photo, David Pearson has kindly let me share the photo here: Plus this photo of the same train, at Manod...the first stop out of Blaenau. The van isn't fitted with side lamps, which indicates that only the van is unfitted, and that the presflo is being vacuum braked. I think it's a van movement to get it back to Bala (for whatever reason). There were movement of Herrings from Arenig Quarry to Bala for engineering purposes, perhaps it's to be left at Arenig for one such movement? It's always great to see unpublished photos of the branch. Edited July 18, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishGypsum4 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Unless the guards were lax on the operating rules I'd agree that it is a van move given there isn't a lamp on the side of the van as required with a semi or unfitted freight. What a lovely shot of the train although it does seem somewhat more bleak and cold looking than the first one at Blaenau Ffestiniog Central! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2020 51 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said: Does this mean Presflos were coming in from the Western Region and the London Midland Region? At the time of the photo, the Bala and Conwy Valley lines were not joined. May 15th 1959 is the date of the photo at Blaenau, and as can be found with the photo by PGH at Arenig, it's date is circa 1959. IMHO 14th May is at the end of the Bala Branch's passenger life (closing in January 1960), and with other photos I've seen with a presflo in a train, this fits in the period they were being used in passenger trains without a brake van. Just a point to make on the back of your presflo comment. Presflos had begun appearing earlier than 1959. I don't have the dates to hand, but they were entering service from the mid 1950s onwards. I was referring to the fact the short hand rail, and twin brake cyilnder 'Presflos' were appearing new in 1959, and were generally the ones making an appearance on the branch. Presflos would have been coming in from the Conwy Valley and over Cwm Prysor, the LMR supplying the Tanygrisiau/Stwlan pumped storage project, which submerged the Ffestiniog, and the WR the Trawsfynydd dam and power station, but no doubt there was a bit of an overlap and cement from each branch found it's way from Blaanau GW yard to LMR and vice versa. The idea of a van left for Ballast work at Arenig Quarry is feasible, especially just before a weekend. Friday evening and Saturday morning were the periods during which the previously planned movements of ballast, equipment, spoil wagons, Ganes/Salmons, plough vans, dogfish, grampus (should that be grampi; no, that would make the singular of grampus grampo on the basis of scampi/scampo) took place to get everything into position for the Sunday occupation. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 Top feed and pipe work removed. Need to fill the hole left by the top feed and further cleaning up to do, but the hard work is done. 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 A couple of other photos here that David Pearson has let me share. This is the same service, the 4.25pm off Blaenau, but taken the day before on Thursday 14th May 1959 with 8727. 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom F Posted July 21, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2020 The fireman glances back to check all is in order with the train as 5774 passes with the 5.15pm Trawsfynydd-Bala Class K 39 1 6 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcf Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I hit the like key when I saw this but decided that was insufficient for this superb photo and the modelling it represented. Just wonderful. Rob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Love the pic but those 57xx's must have been pretty economical to run judging by the amount of coal left in the bunker! 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom F Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Killybegs said: Love the pic but those 57xx's must have been pretty economical to run judging by the amount of coal left in the bunker! I've actually never seen a photo on the branch of one without a bunker full! I have to admit I've generally modelled them as I've seen them in photos, which could have been at Bala, Blaenau or elsewhere on the line. Edited July 21, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I'm not doubting that Tom but it's got me wondering where they would have coaled up the bunkers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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