Cwm Prysor - 'The Bala Branch'

[Tom F]

Tom, what you do with Cwm Prysor is up to you. If you don't like the rules, change the rules! Obviously, something is working for you, otherwise you wouldn't be generating this level of debate.

 

Crack on, I say. I think I'm in the majority here.

 

Ian.

 

 

I'm probably missing something Ian, but I wasn't trying to change the rules.

 

Arenig Quarry did produce ballast for BR. Transported in Herrings... I've a cracking photo in my collection of a long line of them (plus a Shark) behind a 43XX on the approach into Bala, most likely heading for Arenig.

 

Pteremy knows more on this than me, so it's quite possibly basalt but I've always seen Arenig referred to a Granite Quarry (even if the Railway Roundabout episode incorrectly refers to it as mining slate).

 

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/510972/details/arenig-quarry-i

[Captain Kernow]

The key is to allow for the time involved on the real railway for all the various operations, such as the guard screwing down the brakes in his van, plus pinning down some more, then uncoupling, walking to the engine to get the key for the groundframe, unlocking the latter, coupling/uncoupling in the siding, and more shunting, then the who,e lot in reverse order to reassemble the train and set off.

 

I always used to take note of the fact, when at work and coordinating an 'incident' from a signal box, that in real life operational matters always take longer than you expect them to.

 

Eventually, I applied this logic to Rule Book operational processes, such as Single Line Working and putting a time allowance on each activity mandated by the Rule Book, such as the Pilotman calling the signal man, briefing the driver of the next train to pass over the single line section (more time required if the train was running in the 'wrong direction', due to the additional amount of information that usually had to be imparted) and even the amount of time it would take the Pilotman to get off the last train through the Single Line in one direction and walk to the signal, where the first train in the opposite direction was waiting. You would also make an allowance if this was being done in the dark and/or in poor

underfoot conditions, such as rain on wet ballast.

 

Many activities took their time because important messages concerning the safety of the operation had to be imparted and understood.

 

As such, we are sometimes guilty in the model railway world of speeding operational matters up just a little too much!

[Covkid]

" I think there is something of watching the trains, plus I love the bleak landscape. My friend Simon and I enjoyed operating the layout, there is a good number of trains coming through. I think the fact I’m going to be extending adds to that, but overall I feel I’m running a real railway". 

 

Far better to feel that you are running a railway than simply playing trains Tom.  I find its very rewarding trying to capture the atmosphere of a certain place and time, I think you have discovered that as well.

 

Geoff

 

And you know all about that Geoff with the wonderful pieces you have created.

The more important question is whether or not it is likely to provide sufficient operational interest for you.

For some modellers Cwm Prysor would be boring and dull. For a number, it might even be too much: not everyone wants to run things.

 

What do you want? Quantity or quality of operation?

 

And that is the nub of it really in my view. Tom is creating a very nice slice of barren Welsh moorland in his own special artistic way. What he has created so far is really nice, but it wouldn't hold my appeal for too long because it is basically a pannier tank on a passenger train and a pannier on the goods. I would have to have variety of power with maybe a 43xx and a Collett goods, even if unprototypical.

 

Maybe adding Bala into the mix, or even a small piece of the Ruabon-Barmouth "main line" in a separate module, would provide a little more.  

 

As I said though, it is Tom's and his goods stock is very mixed and beautifully finished, and if he is happy to extend then absolutely fine.  Of course were are still to see 5810 and 5811 which would bring some variety to the 57xx and 74xx.

 

All I can say is keep showing us your work Tom.  It certainly inspires me.    

[Regularity]

If I had the space and wanted to model the line, then to my mind Bala has an awful lot going for it.

[Tom F]

then to my mind Bala has an awful lot going for it.

 

 

Indeed, and it will be running down the other side of my shed!

 

It's compressed but I have a plan that will fit into 13/14ft.

Edited October 15, 2018 by 9793

[Tom F]

And you know all about that Geoff with the wonderful pieces you have created.

 

And that is the nub of it really in my view. Tom is creating a very nice slice of barren Welsh moorland in his own special artistic way. What he has created so far is really nice, but it wouldn't hold my appeal for too long because it is basically a pannier tank on a passenger train and a pannier on the goods. I would have to have variety of power with maybe a 43xx and a Collett goods, even if unprototypical.

 

Maybe adding Bala into the mix, or even a small piece of the Ruabon-Barmouth "main line" in a separate module, would provide a little more.  

 

As I said though, it is Tom's and his goods stock is very mixed and beautifully finished, and if he is happy to extend then absolutely fine.  Of course were are still to see 5810 and 5811 which would bring some variety to the 57xx and 74xx.

 

All I can say is keep showing us your work Tom.  It certainly inspires me.    

 

 

You see the Pannier and 58s have never bothered me, because that is what ran. I remember Larry Goddard saying how I should run Collett Goods and 43XX, but for me....I would lose interest as it would not reflect the branch in the late 50s/early 60s. I'm trying to recreate what I'm too young to have ever seen.

 

Now the fact I'm going to extend into Capel Celyn (which gives me a lovely meandering scenic section) and then Bala... really excites me as I can legitimately run 43XX and a Manor on the duties they would have done (Ruabon-Bala Goods) plus the Wrexham-Bala Autotrain (school train).

Edited October 15, 2018 by 9793

[phixer64]

Wow, How did I miss this, Ooze's in atmosphere, and how simple, love it, have read from page 1 tonight, brilliant. Scenic work is excellent, and its a fine tribute to your father.

Looking the beaten storm fences, my I enquire if you made then from scratch, or are they a kit?

 

Keep up the excellent work, on this.

 

Regards Jeff

[tomparryharry]

I'm probably missing something Ian, but I wasn't trying to change the rules.

 

Arenig Quarry did produce ballast for BR. Transported in Herrings... I've a cracking photo in my collection of a long line of them (plus a Shark) behind a 43XX on the approach into Bala, most likely heading for Arenig.

 

Pteremy knows more on this than me, so it's quite possibly basalt but I've always seen Arenig referred to a Granite Quarry (even if the Railway Roundabout episode incorrectly refers to it as mining slate).

 

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/510972/details/arenig-quarry-i

Hello Tom, I don't think you're missing anything. It's a fine body of work. As far as the geological composition, don't ask me, I haven't a clue!

 

happy modelling,

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

I'm probably missing something Ian, but I wasn't trying to change the rules.

 

Arenig Quarry did produce ballast for BR. Transported in Herrings... I've a cracking photo in my collection of a long line of them (plus a Shark) behind a 43XX on the approach into Bala, most likely heading for Arenig.

 

Pteremy knows more on this than me, so it's quite possibly basalt but I've always seen Arenig referred to a Granite Quarry (even if the Railway Roundabout episode incorrectly refers to it as mining slate).

 

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/510972/details/arenig-quarry-i

 

Well, that showed me; the nearest granite is closer than Penmaenmawr!

[The Johnster]

I always used to take note of the fact, when at work and coordinating an 'incident' from a signal box, that in real life operational matters always take longer than you expect them to.

 

Eventually, I applied this logic to Rule Book operational processes, such as Single Line Working and putting a time allowance on each activity mandated by the Rule Book, such as the Pilotman calling the signal man, briefing the driver of the next train to pass over the single line section (more time required if the train was running in the 'wrong direction', due to the additional amount of information that usually had to be imparted) and even the amount of time it would take the Pilotman to get off the last train through the Single Line in one direction and walk to the signal, where the first train in the opposite direction was waiting. You would also make an allowance if this was being done in the dark and/or in poor

underfoot conditions, such as rain on wet ballast.

 

Many activities took their time because important messages concerning the safety of the operation had to be imparted and understood.

 

As such, we are sometimes guilty in the model railway world of speeding operational matters up just a little too much!

Funnily enough I have been considering this very issue earlier today.  I reckon I allow plenty of time on my BLT for such things as coupling/uncoupling, connecting vacuum and steam bags, doing continuity tests, walking to signal boxes to get the electric train token, changing lamps and doing signal box work.  So, earlier, to give myself an impression of how long it would take the signalman to change the loop points and pull off the dummy for a loco during a running around movement, timing my assessment of the operation (8 seconds) and then performing a pantomime of pulling the locking lever, points lever, replacing the locking lever, and pulling off the dummy (18 seconds assuming he doesn't have to walk along the frame to pull off the dummy).  

 

I need to give things a bit more time; doing the pantomimes of coupling up, connecting bags and so on is only going to reveal similar results.  I will do them all, time them, and apply those times to the necessary pauses in operation.  At least none of my locos had screw reverse...

 

The one I've probably got right is blowing brakes off after vacuum is destroyed in shunting or continuity tests.  This happens much more quickly with steam locos' large ejectors than it did with the 70s diesels I was used to in my railway career, and almost matches dmu performance.

[Regularity]

OK, so it’s Canadian and also air brakes, but, this is interesting: http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?p=1704

Also this one: http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?p=1723

[Covkid]

I'm probably missing something Ian, but I wasn't trying to change the rules.

 

Arenig Quarry did produce ballast for BR. Transported in Herrings... I've a cracking photo in my collection of a long line of them (plus a Shark) behind a 43XX on the approach into Bala, most likely heading for Arenig.

 

Pteremy knows more on this than me, so it's quite possibly basalt but I've always seen Arenig referred to a Granite Quarry (even if the Railway Roundabout episode incorrectly refers to it as mining slate).

 

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/510972/details/arenig-quarry-i

 

A small train of Herring would certainly be nice Tom. I have half a dozen in my vast kit box to build. 

Presume the loads and empties into Arenig quarry were handled on the daily goods rather than on a ballast trip. Unless maybe the civil engineer planned a ballast job on the line at some point. 

[Tom F]

A small train of Herring would certainly be nice Tom. I have half a dozen in my vast kit box to build. 

Presume the loads and empties into Arenig quarry were handled on the daily goods rather than on a ballast trip. Unless maybe the civil engineer planned a ballast job on the line at some point. 

 

 

I've seen no photos of Herring Hoppers in regular goods trains, so they must have run separately. Interestingly they aren't referenced in the WTT.

[Tom F]

Well, that showed me; the nearest granite is closer than Penmaenmawr!

 

I must admit, I've alway presumed looking at the colour of the rocks, that the outcrops the line cut through (particularly just west of Cwm Prysor were granite. From a wet July visit 2 years ago.

 

 

[chrisf]

I've seen no photos of Herring Hoppers in regular goods trains, so they must have run separately. Interestingly they aren't referenced in the WTT.

 

I think you'll find that details of ballast workings were published in the weekly notices.

 

Chris

[Tom F]

I think you'll find that details of ballast workings were published in the weekly notices.

 

Chris

Thanks Chris

 

That would make sense...I bet trying to get hold of a weekly notice for the branch is near impossible now.

[Tom F]

Wow, How did I miss this, Ooze's in atmosphere, and how simple, love it, have read from page 1 tonight, brilliant. Scenic work is excellent, and its a fine tribute to your father.

Looking the beaten storm fences, my I enquire if you made then from scratch, or are they a kit?

 

Keep up the excellent work, on this.

 

Regards Jeff

Thanks Jeff for your kind comments! I appreciate all the feedback and discussion.

 

Snow fencing used scale sleepers laser cut by Tim Horn, then if fitted them in place copying what was in the photos.

[Regularity]

Deleted

As the author of the post, you can choose to hide it.

[Tom F]

As the author of the post, you can choose to hide it.

Cheers Simon

My phone ended up posting the same message twice!

[Pteremy]

I have drawn a blank on maps or books that I have that might confirm the precise age and nature of the Arenig Granite. A quick search on line was not much more help. But I don't see any reason to doubt that the rock is some form of granite. 'Granite' is an elastic term and there may be a more precise modern classification. But the use as ballast/roadstone suggests it must be a blocky rock, without the sort of lamination that might occur naturally in a sedimentary rock (like a mudstone) or as the result of stress and recrystallisation in a metamorphic rock (like slate).

[Tom F]

Just on my lunch break, but just found a photo I was looking for.

 

We had touched on presflos in passenger trains, in particular in the photo of one at the rear of a train. Well here we see one at Arenig, between the loco and coach.

[tanatvalley]

I have drawn a blank on maps or books that I have that might confirm the precise age and nature of the Arenig Granite. A quick search on line was not much more help. But I don't see any reason to doubt that the rock is some form of granite. 'Granite' is an elastic term and there may be a more precise modern classification. But the use as ballast/roadstone suggests it must be a blocky rock, without the sort of lamination that might occur naturally in a sedimentary rock (like a mudstone) or as the result of stress and recrystallisation in a metamorphic rock (like slate).

British Geolocial Survey have an app called iGeology. It superimposes the geology on an OS map. This describes the Arenig quarry rock as an intrusive igneous rock, quartz-latite, its age is 444-485 million years ago in the Ordovician Period. The rock is intermediate in nature between a granite and a basalt. Quarrymen described any hard igneous rock as granite. Edited October 16, 2018 by tanatvalley

[Tom F]

As I mentioned the other evening, after operating with my friend Simon, we realised that a proper sequence was needed rather than shouting across what each others WTT timetable said. So I've been busy tonight, and I'm happy to say it's done.

 

 

The next step is to work out diagrams for locos. So for example the 5.45 pick up goods will be Diagram 001....and for example will be worked by 9793. I will then make sure 9793/Diagram 001 works the return goods from Trawsfynydd (8.30am). Each fiddle yard will have a small white board with each loco assigned to it's Diagram. This way when I want to change things up, I can reassign locos as I please.

Edited October 16, 2018 by 9793

[Pteremy]

British Geolocial Survey have an app called iGeology. It superimposes the geology on an OS map. This describes the Arenig quarry rock as an intrusive igneous rock, quartz-latite, its age is 444-485 million years ago in the Ordovician Period. The rock is intermediate in nature between a granite and a basalt. Quarrymen described any hard igneous rock as granite.

 

 

Doh! Why is the obvious so often missed! Thanks for the confirmation, particularly the age. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Pteremy

[Tom F]

This has just been pointed out to me, but the infamous SLS special that ran over the branch in January 1961....and somebody couldn’t spell!