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Well, that is another Pannier finished and on the layout. 5774 of Croes and long time loco sub allocated to Bala and Trawsfynydd. As referenced she is the first I've modelled without a top feed.

 

Here she is seen with the Pengwern Goods (10.51 off Bala) and is approaching the Stop Sign (which I'm now in a position to get made and put in place over the next week). The crew in 5774 were painted by Claudia Everett.

 

post-24300-0-82701200-1544478981_thumb.jpg

 

I tried something different with this shot and I'm quite pleased with it. It shows up nicely the addition of shovel and bucket on the rear storage racks.

 

post-24300-0-23602800-1544478993_thumb.jpg

 

After operating Leeds, I have to say I really did enjoy operating sound fitted locos, so I think I'll have to see about having at least one 57XX with sound. I wouldn't want to mess with one already weathered, so I'd be looking at a future loco to be fitted before detailing (at this point it's going to be either 4617, 9752 or 8791 which are the next planned 57XX/8750s).

Edited by 9793
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I suspect sound will be the top of a slippery slope, Tom; I reckon if it was me and I liked one loco having sound they'd all have to!  I'm a DC Luddite for reasons closely associated with my lack of understanding of DCC and my general poverty, so the temptation is not one I have to succumb to.

 

Been thinking about ambient sound, though, a background loop of stream, rain, gurgling drains and gutters and the odd sheep bleating.  My trains do make very realistic sounds, but only in my head, where the steam and smoke is kept as well, but I often spend quiet times between trains just looking at things and imagining the railwaymen working, filling in forms, and so on, and ambient sound would be great for this.  On Cwm Prysor, the addition of wind in the grass might enhance the effect...

Edited by The Johnster
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Been thinking about ambient sound, though, a background loop of stream, rain, gurgling drains and gutters and the odd sheep bleating. On Cwm Prysor, the addition of wind in the grass might enhance the effect...

Layout sound

Edited by Regularity
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There are some quite incredible small speaker/amplifiers about now of which this just one:

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01HTH3C8S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I've always though that good ambient sound would add more than any 'electronic chuffs' and is something I intend to look into when I get to an appropriate stage in my efforts. Poor sound on exhibition layouts, and in my view most are, just leads me to walk away. The brain is very intolerant of 'bad' sounds of all kinds, be that a film with a poor sound track or next door's grandchildren.

 

The sort of thing in the link from Regularity looks very useful. Thanks for posting.

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It isn’t just about the sound for me, I have recordings of pannier tanks I can just play in the background. It’s that feeling of as you accelerate you feel the loco sound change or when it starts to coast as you knock the controller back, that’s what I really enjoyed when operating Leeds at the weekend, and why I’d like one of my Panniers with sound.

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Understandable, Tom. It brings a whole new experience to driving model locos.

 

Not sure into electronics you are (but guessing that it’s not much!) but there are a variety of ways of getting into DCC at different cost levels. As I said earlier, instead of having a module in each loco connected to the motor and speaker on board, you could instead wire the output from the module to the track and an external amplifier. The latter gets you more bass, the former means you only buy one module, and only need a small booster of a couple of amps.

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Understandable, Tom. It brings a whole new experience to driving model locos.

Not sure into electronics you are (but guessing that it’s not much!) but there are a variety of ways of getting into DCC at different cost levels. As I said earlier, instead of having a module in each loco connected to the motor and speaker on board, you could instead wire the output from the module to the track and an external amplifier. The latter gets you more bass, the former means you only buy one module, and only need a small booster of a couple of amps.

As you rightly suspect I’m not great with electronics! I was proud I was able to wire Cwm Prysor! :P

 

I have a Lenz system with LH90 controllers which suit my needs. I’ll have a think, although the issue with a fixed external speaker is the sound will always be loud in one place. I personally prefer the idea of the sound in the loco, granted you lose the base aspect.

 

Interesting ideas though Simon, much appreciated.

Edited by 9793
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My impression of DCC loco sound is that it's not quite there yet in regard to steam locos, and a bit of white noise associated with 4 or 6 bursts per driving wheel revolution (let's leave Lord Nelson out of it for now) does not cut the mustard.  The range of noises made by steam locos is very wide and varied, and it is essential that they all be reproduced accurately in relation to what the loco is doing for realism.  The noise a loco makes as it pulls away from a platform with a train is not the same as it makes running around the train, for example.  Add the vacuum pump on GW locos (or the Westinghouse for air braked) and the various sounds from the safety valves and steam locos are a big ask for the system.  

 

Diesels are easier; they are either making the appropriate noise for the throttle setting or they are ticking over, with an added whirr from the air compressor now and then.  A look at the Abbotswood videos will show how very effective this can be!

 

Noise and a realistic exhaust environmentally acceptable in a living room are the big challenges in steam modelling, and I have no answers, only the questions.  'Smoke' units are well established but are actually much better as diesel exhausts.

Edited by The Johnster
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Most DCC sound files are now based on recordings, so white noise is a thing of the past.

 

What they lack is a good bass response, hence a speaker under the layout is a good thing. Speakers in the loco are best at providing higher frequency sounds (though many speakers are surprisingly good at the bass, too) which are more important to humans for locating the sounds. It is possible to wire in a sound-only decoder to a bass speaker/amplifier under the layout, and to use consisting to have it running and following the same commands as the loco. The problem here is that the sound-only decoder has to be consisted with the loco each time the latter is changed.

 

But it can be very effective: follow the link to my friend Trevor’s blog provided above, and click on the audio category to see how much fun he has had with sound.

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Thanks Simon

 

For a long time sound didn't interest me, but my head was turned hearing this 7mm Pannier.

Granted this is 7mm, but I love the way the 'chuffs' clearly alter rather than sounding like a sped up 'chuff, chuff' if that makes sense. I also love the coasting sound.

 



I'd be interested in what the best speakers are in 4mm that can give a little bit of base to the sound. Edited by 9793
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Not used them yet, but I recently bought a pair of Zimo “sugar cube” type speakers for fitting to Victorian S Scale locos, based on how well they were performing on the Sulzers on Potchullin.

 

 

How big are a pair of those out of interest Simon, just wondering how much can be fitted into a Pannier's bunker. 

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Another take on a High Level/Hattons hybrid, and the mods required to do it, is over on the Scalefour forum. Nothing to do with me, but thought it may be of interest here:

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6127

 

Meanwhile, yours is looking really good Tom! & good luck with the venture.

 

Hi,

 

at first i have to say that Cwm Prysor is a very beautiful layout.

I've been reading your blog before, Tom, and was very happy when i saw that the story started to continue here.

It really is the best example for less-is-more that i can imagine.

 

I've also got two Hatton's 14xx Locos, which do not run well.

Having looked at the HighLevel Chassis for quite a long time now, I decided to go down that route when i read the thread on the scalefour forum.

I am about to order some HighLevel 14xx chassis for my locos, but i would like to know which motor was used in Davids loco in the scalefour thread.

As i don't have an account there, i can't ask directly but it would be great if someone could do that for me.

 

Keep up the good work Tom, i will follow this thread and can't wait for the layout to be finished with grass etc. It will certainly look very good.

 

Kind Regards,

Bjoern

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Keep up the good work Tom, i will follow this thread and can't wait for the layout to be finished with grass etc. It will certainly look very good.

 

Kind Regards,

Bjoern

 

Most kind of your Bjoern!

 

Grass work will happen, do not worry! ;)

I'm just hanging on until the crossing gates are finished with my friend Alan Jones. Once they arrive, I can add the dry stone walls, before finally beginning the grass work!

 

It is allowing me time to work on more stock, which is a blessing!

 

Regarding the earlier topic of DCC sound. I received a message earlier from a certain North Eastern modeller of this parish, showing how a sugar cube speaker can be fitted in the loco body (much more preferable than in the bunker) and from what I heard in the video, with a decent sound too! 

 

4617 and 7409 will be the two Panniers receiving sound in due course!

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My impression of DCC loco sound is that it's not quite there yet in regard to steam locos, and a bit of white noise associated with 4 or 6 bursts per driving wheel revolution (let's leave Lord Nelson out of it for now) does not cut the mustard.  The range of noises made by steam locos is very wide and varied, and it is essential that they all be reproduced accurately in relation to what the loco is doing for realism.  The noise a loco makes as it pulls away from a platform with a train is not the same as it makes running around the train, for example.  Add the vacuum pump on GW locos (or the Westinghouse for air braked) and the various sounds from the safety valves and steam locos are a big ask for the system.  

 

 

Not only that, half a dozen drivers will handle a steam loco in half a dozen different ways. Some drivers were "fireman's friends", some were utter thrash merchants, some thoughtful, and some very switched on in terms of economy. Because the locomotive exhaust is the telltale for how the loco is being driven there are so many differences. But most importantly, the model owner would need to understand the driving styles to achieve realistic results.

 

I am not really sold on steam loco sounds, particularly synthetic American, but the SWD 2 cylinder project is one of the best on the market  IMHO.     T

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I am about to order some HighLevel 14xx chassis for my locos, but i would like to know which motor was used in Davids loco in the scalefour thread.

As i don't have an account there, i can't ask directly but it would be great if someone could do that for me.

 

 

Bjoern

 

Hi Bjoern

 

I've asked the question for you but you may have been able to post a question via the guest book yourself.

 

Please be aware that as David and my chassis are P4, there is more room between the frames to get a wider motor in which you may not have in OO.  So a 14XX size Mashima motor might be out of the question.  I think I used an old Sagami 1428 for mine.

 

Peter

 

Edited to avoid confusion between a 14XX motor and a 14XX loco!

Edited by Brassey
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Hi,

 

at first i have to say that Cwm Prysor is a very beautiful layout.

I've been reading your blog before, Tom, and was very happy when i saw that the story started to continue here.

It really is the best example for less-is-more that i can imagine.

 

I've also got two Hatton's 14xx Locos, which do not run well.

Having looked at the HighLevel Chassis for quite a long time now, I decided to go down that route when i read the thread on the scalefour forum.

I am about to order some HighLevel 14xx chassis for my locos, but i would like to know which motor was used in Davids loco in the scalefour thread.

As i don't have an account there, i can't ask directly but it would be great if someone could do that for me.

 

Keep up the good work Tom, i will follow this thread and can't wait for the layout to be finished with grass etc. It will certainly look very good.

 

Kind Regards,

Bjoern

Hi Bjoern,

 

If you are indeed planning on building a chassis in OO, then this is exactly what I have done and details can be found on my blog here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/21/entry-21363-new-chassis-for-the-hattons-14xx/

 

There are four parts to the blog so far and at this stage, I do have a running chassis, which now needs to be painted and weathered.

 

My advice to you would be as follows:

 

i) Although High Level products are excellent and are probably amongst the best etched chassis kits you can get in the UK for 4mm scale locos, I'm not convinced that you would need one for the OO conversion of the Hattons 14XX.

 

There are some parts of the High Level chassis that you don't really need, such as the etched inside valve gear, which is already represented on the Hattons plastic body. David on the Scalefour forum had already built his chassis before considering the Hattons body (I think he was originally planning on using the older Hornby body), so he had to cut the plastic representation of the inside valve gear away. I have left mine in place and I think it's fine.

 

As such, I had already bought a Perseverance chassis kit, which is a bit more basic but still very adequate for the job. They were considered the 'cutting edge' in their day several years ago. Unfortunately you can't get them now, unless via the likes of EBay, but Comet (ie. Wizard Models) do a very similar chassis kit, which would also do the job very well, especially if you decide to build the chassis rigid, with no compensation or springing (which strictly speaking you don't really need in OO).

 

The main 'problem' with the Comet chassis is that they don't include any balance weights, but these would be easy enough to make up from a scale drawing and/or photographs, using plasticard.

 

Wizard Models would also be able to sell you the necessary Markits driving and pony truck wheels for OO.

 

ii) For High Level, you'll see that I used a LoadHauler+ gearbox and asked them for the 90:1 gear ratio. This should allow you to run smoothly and slowly and also will give you an adequate higher speed, if you are running over any distance (I only do slow speed shunting!).

 

iii) As others have said, the round can and larger Mashima motors are probably too big for OO frames, but a '10' or '12' series motor will certainly be more than sufficient. I have used a Mashima 1220 in my chassis and when you remove the Hattons motor, motor mount and the cast mazak block, you should have room for a small flywheel as well.

 

If you are using a Mashima motor, you can order this from Chris Gibbon at High Level as well, just be sure to specify what size of motor shaft you want for the gearbox, as the '10' and '12' series Mashima motors have 1.5mm motor shafts and the larger motors tend to have 2mm shafts.

 

Hope this helps and the best of luck with your project.

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